A world first? Passive v active isolation platforms test

[spiritofmusic]

I suspect Jarek might be able to answer that.
For my part, I've now done a four-way comparison of isolation techniques on my cdp
Passive air/CLD Stacore Adv
versus
Active piezoelectric sensor Herzan/Accurion-like Kuraka
versus
Passive Rollerblock Symposium Isis
versus
Passive sprung Minus K
---
No contest, Stacore the winner and by a clear margin, esp in terms of clean bass grip, midrange clarity, natural treble, microdetail, overall flow and ease.
Active Kuraka very impressive too, but highly ironically in a product that specs better than Stacore into infra bass regions ie sub 1Hz, it's bass performance was somewhat worse than the Stacore, and it was this plus midrange intelligibility that swung it to the Stacore.
More reasoning that the broadband isoln of Stacore that specs better than active Kuraka making more of a difference overall.
Minus K just a non starter despite best price of all.
Symposium still my choice if I wanted to stay with a traditional isolating rack.
So Speedskater, that test would be fascinating, but I'm 100% certain even w'out it that my ears have guided me well to going all in w Stacore.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Re all gauges and controls at front of platform?
A nice idea practically.
In terms of aesthetics, I suspect there might be many customers who wouldn't want to directly have to keep looking at a pressure gauge, three toggle switches and a pump inlet.
Having these to the side keeps the clean "stealth"-like lines of the unit more attractive and minimal.

 

[Stacore]

Does anyone ever do any real testing?

I haven't seen any but I haven't looked much. I bet there must be semiconductors vibrational tests e.g for rocket and military applications.

Cheers,

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, adyc and Marc.

And thank you, Jarek (with whom I had a very nice and informative telephone conversation today)!

 

[shakti]

Today I had the great opportunity, to try the Taiko Tana active isolation platform (Herzan TS 140 based) in comparison to my Micro Seiki BA-600 pneumatic passive isolation platform.

The Micro Seiki BA-600 is a really old Design, heavy 60kg , matching the footprint of their 5000 and 8000 series.
It has the typical 3 circuit pneumatic Design, but due to the weight a low resonance frequency.

I was using the BA-600 under my Micro Seiki SX 8000 MKII turntable, after having used a HRS M3X platform (customized 6 feet Design)

The BA-600 was immediately different than the HRS. The BA-600 was softer, with deep soundstage and in general a more warmer and natural sound. The HRS was in direct comparison more direct and with higher resolution, but a little bit out of tonal balance .

I have chosen than to listen with BA-600, as the sound was more authentic , mainly voices had more of the real thing.

But listening now with a Koetsu Onyx Platinum, I was looking for the next step. So I was really happy , that I was offered to try the Taiko Tana active base.

Compared to the BA-600 the Taiko Tana is a much easier thing to carry

My wife was so kind to help me changing the bases, and just after a second, she liked the Taiko Tana under the Micro , as it looks much better..., so simple the world can be...

But after some serious listening, the Taiko Tana made clear, that this active base is a real neutral kind of support.

The tonality is between the HRS and the BA-600.

In Comparison the pneumatic base has a sonic signature, always a little smooth, but at the end , nice to listen too.

The Taiko Tana just plays, what is on the record, very precise, deep soundstage, clear 3 dimensional staging. Biggest difference in my set up is a even wider sound stage too, this definitely is giving to the instruments and vocalists more room to breath.

I have not had the chance to listen to an original Herzan TS 140, but the wooden top (Panzerholz called) should make a difference, also I believe, the power supply is updated to get a higher performance.

So I have now the opportunity to decide for absolute neutral performance or to still love the light coloration of the original Micro Seiki BA-600 base, as a lot of my records do indeed benefit from such a more "analogue" sound.

Next week I will get a Van Den Hul Stradivarius Cartridge, may be the tonal balance of this cart (vdh is mostly on the high resolution side) will change my point of view.

Another step to change the individual performance of the isolation platforms is the situation, that they all play on a double stack of stone (granit) to give to my old industry furniture some more weight. I can imagine, that the change of the stones will make a difference too.

But as all platforms had the same starting position, I would say, my observations are valid is this set up.

 

[shakti]

here you can see the 6 footer HRS M3X and the Micro Seiki BA-600 in a black wooden frame.

 

[Blue58]

Very nice Shakti but what if you removed the feet from the TT and motor and had it sitting directly onto the Taiko Tana?
Would that improve the coupling and make it more effective?
Just curious.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Shakti,

thank you for the very helpful comments.

I notice you are using a Taiko Tana grounding block. any comment on it's effect?

and which platform allowed for the best bass articulation and realism?

 

[gian60]

Having you different turntable and cartridge you can use Taiko Tana with turntable with cartridge like Koetsu.Miyajima or Air Tight and BA 600 where you use cartridges like GFS or Van DH or Lyra

 

[analog brother]

i love the sofa!

 

[bonzo75]

Looking forward to hearing on the Stradivarius. Is it amber or any particular wood?

 

[shakti]

- The vdh Stradivarius is Colibri based with some minor updates, major change is the new body of Hawaiian Koa Wood and a lacquer according to an old Stradivarius rezepture,
Thomas Schick liked the Stradivarius in Munich's High End Fair a lot , which means something to me.

- The Sofa is Bretz "Cloud 7"

- The feets on the Micro Seiki SX 8000 MkII are mandatory to the construction, so on the Top of the feet the tonearm is optional mounted
The feets do have small thin rubber rings on the bottom, I tried it with and without, surprisingly it was better with. Seems, that the ring is not! the interface to the ground, but do kill resonances in the feet .

- The Taiko Tana platform is the "best" in my comparison, as the character is neutral , means the platform brings the unit on top to sing, without adding anything.
Means: huge realism!....But...

The BA-600 Micro Seiki Base was developed together with the SX 8000 MKII and nearly every SX 8000 MkII was sold with the BA-600, so there is a kind of an obvious synergy. For instance, it is recommended, that the SX 8000 MKII should stay on a glass Platter. So such a glass top platter is part of the BA-600.

So a a complete set up I still like the Micro Seiki Turntable / Platform playing together, even not reaching the level of realism of the Taiko Tana, this combination plays on a very high level.

- My wooden Top Plate of the Industry furniture does not give a flat ground, so I have a double stack of a stone platform to balance it out. So for all compared platforms, this was the same base. Important to my understanding of mechanics is, that this stone platforms are more heavy , that the compared platforms, so the high mass is under the platform.

- the wooden boxes on the pictures are the Taiko Setchi grounding boxes, they have D1 (copper) and D2 (silver /gold) Versions. They are active with 9v batteries.

Sound effect is very promising, even on the ground connector of the Micro Seiki turntable. more clear, more sorted, more "black"

 

[PeterA]

This post was originally in the MSB Select II thread and I have copied and posted it here:

Mike, if I can humbly make a suggestion.
I've been running my Stacores passive CLD/air isolators/Rollerblock lateral isolating platforms under various bits of gear.
It comfortably exceeds the active Kuraka piezo electric sensor platform I directly a/b.d.
I've then gone on to try the Stacore under cdp, under pre, and then cdp and pre stacked vertically on the Stacore with a Svelte Shelf to semi isolate the topmost stacked component.
Isolating each component individually has been absolutely wonderful to the extent that I'm compelled to go Stacores on all my gear, 6-7 platforms.
However stacking gear was fine for the component directly on the Stacore but nowhere near as effective for the topmost component.
I put this down to the fact that the Stacore isolates from the environment as well as from the component itself, and so to maximise the latter, the component must sit directly on the Stacore.
And so I suspect Mike all your gear must be as well, except in yr case Herzans not Stacores.

Marc, what do you mean by the statement in bold? I understand that the isolation platform (active or passive) isolates the effects of the environment from the component, ie ground borne vibrations, but the latter claim has me confused.

I am going to copy this post in its entirety and move it to the "active/passive" thread as it is way off topic for Mikes MSB Select II thread.

 

[bonzo75]

Shakti, if possible is there another audiophile in the neighbor hood with another TT to compare the platforms with, taking out the synergy of the MS?

Yes regarding the Stradivarius that on the Schick plinth common wealth was the most natural sound at Munich

 

[shakti]

I loved this Stradivarius on the fair, so I ordered

I have another three Micro Seiki turntables around, that does not help ....

But I am just installing the nice Zontek turntable , so may be I can do another comparison there.

Problem is, that the Zontek (from Poland) has a huge footprint and might be to big for the platforms to compare.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, what I mean is I believe the Stacore stops a route for noise to reach the component from the floor and environment.
But it also deals w component borne vibrations etc that world leave the piece of gear being isolated and then parasitically drain back into the unit.
So I believe Stacore is a barrier to noise from the floor and environment to the component, and a conduit of noise from the component away from it.
That's why I don't quite get M Lavigne's experience that the topmost component of two pieces of gear stacked on a Herzan derives most benefit.
My experience w the Stacore has been the opposite, and it may well be because the Stacore is doing more to deal w component borne noise than the Herzan is.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, what I mean is I believe the Stacore stops a route for noise to reach the component from the floor and environment.
But it also deals w component borne vibrations etc that world leave the piece of gear being isolated and then parasitically drain back into the unit.
So I believe Stacore is a barrier to noise from the floor and environment to the component, and a conduit of noise from the component away from it.
That's why I don't quite get M Lavigne's experience that the topmost component of two pieces of gear stacked on a Herzan derives most benefit.
My experience w the Stacore has been the opposite, and it may well be because the Stacore is doing more to deal w component borne noise than the Herzan is.

Thank you for that clarification, Marc. I completely agree with you, but only if the component itself is designed for energy drainage. My SME turntable is, with the four towers rigidly fixed to the lower plinth and motor and the design of the footers which terminate in hard metal ball bearings. Your Stacore, or Vibraplane in my case, is massive enough with the steel casework plus the sheet of steel or composite top shelf which acts as a sink into which component vibrations can drain.

I have read this claim from active units like the Herzan but never read an argument in support of the claim. My SS amps also sitting on Vibraplanes are not designed for energy drainage with their rubber footers, and thus internally generated vibrations remain in the chassis stopped by the rubber. I have been meaning to experiment with different footers for precisely this reason but I have not gotten around to it yet.

I am of the view that this more complete approach to isolation plus energy drainage, at least in theory, should work better than either active or passive isolation alone. Are all of your components designed to drain away internally generated vibrations?

 

[spiritofmusic]

I really don't know Peter, I'm just surmising from snippets of various communications.
It's definite that Stacore does not work well if soft footers/compliant feet are used, so I've switched to Symposium s.steel pucks as replacement footers.
As I say I can't be adamant but I'm sure I've been led to believe a big part of the Stacore magic is in draining noise from the component as well as acting as a barrier against noise towards it.

 

[theophile]

I personally use hard precision machined and polished aluminium cups and Silicon nitride balls which sit atop my mag-lev platform. They are in direct contact with stainless steel plates on the bottom of the Yamaha GT 2000. The 'rocking frequency' of the balls cups is around or slightly less than 0.5 Hz.

 

[PeterA]

I personally use hard precision machined and polished aluminium cups and Silicon nitride balls which sit atop my mag-lev platform. They are in direct contact with stainless steel plates on the bottom of the Yamaha GT 2000. The 'rocking frequency' of the balls cups is around or slightly less than 0.5 Hz.

Theophile, are these devices a commercially available product? Do you have any photos and can you share the name and information of these?