Balanced has it's own issues and using balanced in a home system is pointless and will result in poorer sound quality vs a well setup single ended system imo.
I tend to agree and there are many manufacturers of high end electronics who don't believe in and won't ever make a piece of consumer equipment with balanced connections. I use SE throughout my system
I have been asked to post the original TAS article. Here it is. There is no mention of hooking up the ground plug again once the cheater plug is used to determine the lowest residual AC voltage between a particular chassis and the receptacle ground. I'm not sure where this leaves me as I'm a little confused both on the different views expressed in the thread about the mechanism of the putative potential benefit of doing what Weaver suggests, and also, on why simply strapping the chassis ground to the duplex outlet ground isn't beneficial? Specifically, what's the down side? I have used cheater plugs in the past (although I don't need them now) and am not dead yet, so that's encouraging. If they work to eliminate hum or noise, should one reasonably weigh their benefits vs risk?
Good points. As a rule we should obey local electrical codes - disobeying them can have moral and legal issues. However informed and competent people can in some cases overcome some of these rules with minimum risk.
IMHO it is not the kind of subject than can get a general recommendation in a public forum - there are too many variables to consider. Each of us must make his own mind, either researching the subject or asking the competent local people.
I respect codes, and will use this forum to ask an embarrassing question - when was the last time you had the safe ground connection of your house checked and certified? In my country gas systems must be checked and certified every five years, but there is no regular or mandatory verification of ground connections, except when electricity is connected first time or ownership changing. Some time ago I visited a fellow audiophile who complained about intermittent noise in his system and we found that the ground wire of his house was floating - a very dangerous condition. It has surely been in that condition for many years ...
BTW, most people who use vintage equipment should now be considered dangerous outlaws - their equipment does not obey current electrical codes!
I tend to agree and there are many manufacturers of high end electronics who don't believe in and won't ever make a piece of consumer equipment with balanced connections. I use SE throughout my system
What is curious is that even many engineers consider that balanced connections are an overkill for domestic equipment. You can easily get perfectly measuring, noise free systems with single ended. Why, unless for sonic preference, should we go for balanced?
I have to say that I have owned both types of equipment, chosen not because of being SE or balanced, but for sound quality.
What is curious is that even many engineers consider that balanced connections are an overkill for domestic equipment. You can easily get perfectly measuring, noise free systems with single ended. Why, unless for sonic preference, should we go for balanced?
I have to say that I have owned both types of equipment, chosen not because of being SE or balanced, but for sound quality.
Yeah, it's not quite cut and dried as I've heard good results either way, but for my preferences SE is the way to go. I've been to a friends place that uses balanced gear several times, Steve Norber of PranaFidelity, and his system sounds excellent and he thinks it sounds better balanced. His is one of the better "conventional" SS/multi-way systems I've experienced and I think he does this by getting rid of most distortion so the cancellation of even order doesn't simply increase the audibility of odd order because there is so little distortion to begin with... but then he's also very sensitive about issues that cause too much stimulation, which leads to fatigue. It's rare to find a designer of conventionally excellent measuring gear who is also aware of fatigue issues and what causes them. His $6500 floor standers are imo, one of the best values in audio today. They won't be embarrassed by anything.
Balanced interconnections are the surest way to reject ground noise coupling between mains powered system components, which is why studios use them. As far as sound quality, if you prefer the sound of SE circuits, balanced signal interfaces can be established between SE drive circuits as effectively as between differential drive circuits. The signal interface is not dictated by the drive mode.
I tend to agree and there are many manufacturers of high end electronics who don't believe in and won't ever make a piece of consumer equipment with balanced connections. I use SE throughout my system
They don't use it because their customers don't know enough to ask them for it. And when they don't have it, of course they will tell you that you don't need it.
"Balanced Operation
Let's review why balanced operation is desirable. Audio circuits operate in an environment of electrical noise; crosstalk from other channels, ground loops, magnetic pickup from transformers, power supply ripple and other noises. In a balanced circuit, two opposite phases of the signal are present on two otherwise identical input lines. The input of a balanced circuit has a plus and minus polarity, and the output of the circuit also has a plus and minus. The balanced amplifying circuit will amplify the difference between the two inputs and will display a larger difference signal at the output.
What the circuit doesn't do is as important as what it does; it does not amplify any portion of the signal which is the same at both inputs. Ideally it completely rejects the common input signal, and the quality of this rejection is referred to as the Common Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR), which tells how much of the common input signal gets through.
[...]
Another reason to use balanced preamplifying gain stages is that many high end DAC designs offer balanced outputs in which separate DAC circuits are used for each of the two phases of output. Using separate balanced DAC circuits reduces the random noise by 3 dB, the same as if they were in parallel, and reduces common noise by a larger figure. There is also the potential for reduction of distortion with such an approach, but to realize the full performance of these circuits, the gain stage following must have a balanced input."
Reason: it's not the same thing! Balanced interface was created to solve problems that generally don't exist in home systems. It's more complicated and has significant disadvantages when you're talking about the finer aspects of sound quality, but not everyone cares or appreciates or hears these details anyways.
And no.. balanced signal interfaces are also not necessary in home systems and just adds more parts to the signal path.
There's a school of thought where we attempt to minimize the parts count and complexity while maximizing the parts quality used. This is in diametric opposition to stuff like balanced gear. And it works and provides a lot of benefits for those who appreciate them. I know not everyone does. Every part of my system from the source output to the speaker driver was designed and built by me using this theory and I'm more than happy with the results. And somehow, noise isn't an issue!
No, manufacturers usually do not care of this aspect - power transformer leakage should be minimal and is not considered an important parameter. I would risk that there is a 50% probability we have to reverse polarity if we care about this aspect. Just guessing, I have no data on it!
So you think Vladimir doesn't know to use the right polarity in your LAMM amplifiers and needs micro to go and screw around with it? Come on. You can say it.
OK, I will say it. It is absurd to think a bunch of forum junkies know more about this topic than premier audio equipment designers that many of you use. We pay them 10 to 100 times more than mass market products for them to know this. Are there some that don't implement it? Sure. Use different gear.
Or better yet, put your ear next to the speaker as Dave mentioned and see if there is a problem there before chasing the tail pipe of someone online to go and "fix it."
The whole darn topic is about second guessing the manufacturer and you thought you were going to score a point with this line Steve?
Separate chassis and power supply does not mean the circuit is necessarily more complex.
Please don't throw these inaccurate and unjustifiable arguments at me.
edit: the least complex thing isn't necessarily better, I use more complex circuits than strictly necessary to function to reduce distortion and power supplies are one place where increased complexity and/or using separate power supplies for each amplification stage make sense for various reasons. As in most things in life a proper sensible balance works best, but using balanced gear for home systems crosses that line FOR ME.
I specifically provided an example of a balanced system I admire to show that there's more than one way to skin the cat, I realize this, but my way of doing things works too, and IMO works better.
One reason is to decrease the effects of coupling electrostatic charge on the chassis and the internal circuitry. External noise sources can induce noise currents and electrostatic charge on a unit's chassis. Noise currents induced into the cable shields also flow through the chassis -- since the shields terminate (or should terminate) on the chassis. Since there is also coupling between the chassis and the internal circuitry, noise on the chassis can couple into the internal audio. This noise coupling can be minimized by connecting the signal ground to the chassis. This allows the entire grounding system to fluctuate with the noise, surprisingly providing a quiet system. Further coupling reduction is gained when the chassis is solidly bonded to a good earth ground -- either through the line cord, through the rack rails or with an independent technical or protective ground conductor. This provides a non-audio return path for any externally induced noise.
This works for me incredibly well. Just straight from my panel using 10 awg,nothing special, and using a heavy strapping much like rack mounting. Separating the audio signal from noise currents which yields so many acoustic benefits I can't list them all.
Once you understand this principle that noise currents exist in audio equipment,and the audio engineers back in the 1950's knew this well by designing heavy grounds. You can understand why cables,duplexes,ect do make a difference. There are many paths that can be taken to accomplish the same goal.....it can be simple or perplexing....inexpensive or expensive...just depends on choices made. It's all good as we are not immortal,we are only here for a short time.
OK, I will say it. It is absurd to think a bunch of forum junkies know more about this topic than premier audio equipment designers that many of you use. We pay them 10 to 100 times more than mass market products for them to know this. Are there some that don't implement it? Sure. Use different gear.
Or better yet, put your ear next to the speaker as Dave mentioned and see if there is a problem there before chasing the tail pipe of someone online to go and "fix it."
The whole darn topic is about second guessing the manufacturer and you thought you were going to score a point with this line Steve?
Audio designers/manufacturers are really no different than forum junkies (speaking or which, hey, Amir, you’re up to post 15,598…!). We al have different priorities and engage in different compromises/asymmetries.
Vinyl is especially susceptible to compromises and asymmetries as anyone who’s had to chase hum from a cart/phono stage will testify to. It’s precisely because we are dealing with an interdependent chain - often consisting of products from different manufacturers with different priorities bound to differing electrical codes of practice that this issue is being debated.
Fine if you can go shopping and assemble a one-brand digital system designed specifically to operate balanced - not so straightforward when one is dealing with products from different manufacturers, especially with products (like carts and phono stages) where the “ideal” setup is what works in practice rather than theory.
amirm said:
So does using a separate pre-amp, DAC phono stage, etc. Please don't throw these arguments at me.
To add to the above, a separate phono stage is usually essential in order to avoid the contamination of the signal from noise. It's an added layer of complexity designed specifically to avoid the problems that occur when one tries to implement a solution of greater compromises around, say, reduced cost and/or box-count. In many cases, it becomes a necessity exactly for that reason.
No, I would never quote Nelson Pass on this basic, well know aspect of balanced performance. He is too good to be quoted on childish audio BAB.
But I would probably quote him on why his "serious" balanced circuits must be complex and are expensive, and and also why his great sounding lower cost are single ended, if I needed to debate the subject. Nelson Pass and several other high-end designers have thousands of valuable posts in audio forums. They have polite debates, exposing their different approaches such as SE or balanced. I have often read them for the pleasure of readings their technical arguments, without taking sides, something a few people seem to not be able.
Is seems you could not understand the friendly atmosphere and the true motivation and essence of the Zen projects. I have built some DIY Pass designs in the past and regret that he is being quoted as a weapon in an hobby that he always found was based on subjective preference.
It is why he also says:
"This is a particularly good sounding circuit, and I think it sounds significantly better than the Bride of Zen, although I would be hard pressed to explain why. It seems more liquid and has greater depth, while BOZ is a bit dry by comparison. It might be distortion cancellation in the balanced circuit, or it might be the greater dynamic range afforded by quieter balanced operation and higher output swing. As always, I encourage you to build it and decide for yourself."
An extremely effective and simple way of improving the sound of any audio system. A single cable to enable the proper grounding of electronic components. Simply attach the RCA (or XLR) plug end to any spare input socket on your integrated amplifier or pre-amplifier. The mains plug end goes into any spare wall socket, or into a mains distributor. This creates the shortest route to ground from the circuit boards and introduces a different ground potential into the system.
I would guess the main reasons balanced connections are not used more widely are due to the cost, the lack of readily-available (and thus cheap) differential drivers, and panel area (XLRs are bigger than RCAs). Also the chicken and egg bit; nobody asks and other components don't have them so why should I?
Balanced, assuming fully differential, circuits offer lower distortion (cancellation of even order terms), higher SNR (3 dB for each doubling of signal level), and greater noise etc. rejection than comparable single-ended circuits, but XLRs cost more and more importantly the circuitry inside is more complex and costly. The vast majority of op-amps have single-ended outputs, though many DAC chips (the actual device inside, not the box) have differential outputs to reduce glitches, lower distortion, and all that jazz.
For me having a balanced output means I can run long lines to a couple of rear subs on a different AC circuit without ground-loop and noise problems but by and large balanced is not needed in consumer installation. That is not to say some would not benefit, of course, and a lot of folk struggling with ground loops likely wish their components had balanced I/O -- if they knew to ask for it. XLRs also offer positive capture and retention which may or may not matter to most. I would guess single-ended is fine for most people so not enough demand.
On an unrelated note, I am surprised super-high-end component clock connections haven't moved to something like SMA or SMP connectors instead of BNC's...
FWIW Don I run a 9 meter SE IC from my preamp to my amp and there is zero noise or hum. When I questioned my manufacturer he said he will never use balanced in his components. Further he said if I had any noise, hum or loss of signal he would refund my purchase price in total. I've never had a problem. To say that their consumers aren't smart enough to ask for balanced is ludicrous in consumer systems that are done right
