AC Polarity and the reduction of noise and hum

[microstrip]

It seems to me that anyone reading WBF knows that subjective statements are opinions, and should be considered as that. We can not add in my experience and opinion, considering my preferences, to all our comments - its implicit!

What kind of data can we get from Stereophile SUBJECTIVE reviews? I read them sometimes, mostly for MY own enjoyment and information, never to support my points when exchanging views with people.

 

[microstrip]

Before I answer you, do you understand this post by Ken?

You surely know Steve will not be able to answer this nuanced technical question - he is just pointing subjective and factual aspects, just corrected his mistake concerning Lamm solid state amplifiers.

BTW, what is the purpose of asking it, and not explaining immediately your interesting point? Yes, we can have balanced without symmetrical drive ... We talked about it before in WBF, it is a recurring subject.

 

[amirm]

It seems to me that anyone reading WBF knows that subjective statements are opinions, and should be considered as that. We can not add in my experience and opinion, considering my preferences, to all our comments - its implicit!

Not when stated as such:

Part of the reason SE is better is the simple fact SE amplification sounds better, more natural and more believable, they image and soundstage better and simply recreate music with a competency other amps just don't have.

When you state something as fact, it is assumed to be invariant of the listener.

What kind of data can we get from Stereophile SUBJECTIVE reviews? I read them sometimes, mostly for MY own enjoyment and information, never to support my points when exchanging views with people.

Took me two seconds to find counter evidence to that:

Well, Jacob E. Heilbrunn is not alone in his findings about the Classe M-600 - Stereophile John Atkinson just said in his review that the M-600s are the best sounding amplifiers he listened to in his system.

The data is provided to show lack of universality of what Dave said above. And implied by others that I am somehow alone in recommending balanced interconnects.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I am a balanced single guy

Where does that leave me , now serious i do like single ended gear , CAT is also single ended, but have nothing against balanced connections.

What is the point here exactly , is balanced a priority for a better s/n ratio in tube gear .
I assume high end designers as vladimir lamm and ken stevens know exactly what they do and why not to use balanced/ design connections but go for single ended , given the price of lamm gear its not a price issue either .
For a fully balanced amplifier one needs to have double circuitry if i am not mistaken , only connectors mean nothing .
I once had a ML 431 in which only a part of the amp / circuitry was balanced .

 

[microstrip]

Not when stated as such:



When you state something as fact, it is assumed to be invariant of the listener.


Took me two seconds to find counter evidence to that:



The data is provided to show lack of universality of what Dave said above. And implied by others that I am somehow alone in recommending balanced interconnects.

"Invariant to the listener" nice words ... You love playing with the words and also quote incompletely distorting the original post intentions.

The thread tittle was : " A Recent Review Of WBF Member Jacob Heilbrunn's System"

We were commenting on the review, and my full post was

"Well, Jacob E. Heilbrunn is not alone in his findings about the Classe M-600 - Stereophile John Atkinson just said in his review that the M-600s are the best sounding amplifiers he listened to in his system.
How will they sound in SoundLab A1 PXs?"

At that time I owned the A1 Px. And fortunately other posters friendly answered my question, even Jacob E. Heilbrunn answered " I believe they would sound sterling." It is great when we can have direct answers of our preferred reviewers, we must thank WBF for that. Great forum.

Yes, you can use google why I like his excellent (IMHO) reviews.

 

[amirm]

Yes, you can use google why I like his excellent (IMHO) reviews.

Here is another review you like with the entire post quoted:

Myles just posted an enthusiastic review of the Doshi Audio Phono Stage at Positive Feedback. It seems it is not only Bruce that is enjoying Doshi great input stages!

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue66/doshi.htm

Is that a statement about entertainment value of Myles' review too? It doesn't read that way.

Here is another:

Happily I got the Alexia before reading the TAS review by Anthony H. Cordesman, a reviewer I have highly praised in WBF. Otherwise everyone would consider that I got it influenced by his enthusiastic critic " Wilson Alexia - Sometimes Reality Surpasses Expectations" . Read it at TAS 238.

Quoting AHC:
"This loudspeaker can reproduce the details of full-range dynamic contrasts to a degree I never before heard from any speaker this size and they don’t compress or distort at really high listening levels. Moreover, the Alexia is just as good with low-level details. This exceptional ability to handle the loudest and most complex musical material is matched by equally extraordinary low-level musical realism. If you love solo instruments—guitar, piano, violin, whatever—you are going to find that the Alexia provides a level of clarity that matches the best planar and electrostatic drivers from the highest frequencies through the lower midrange to the midbass"

He does not need my confirmation, but yes it is true!

Is that posted for entertainment value?

Just finished reading Jeff Frtzt comprehensive review of the Sonus Faber Amati Futura at UltraAudio.com
The comparison with the Q3 is particularly enlightening.

Thanks Jeff!

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=225:embracing-old-and-new-sonus-faber-amati-futura-loudspeakers&catid=44:feature-articles&Itemid=37

Is enlightening another word for entertainment?

How about this:

Robert Hartley about the The Berning 211/845 60W amplifier: I won’t mince words: The Berning 211/845 is the most beautiful sounding amplifier I’ve ever heard.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/?products=3048

And this is all in the first page of search.

Throw these arguments at someone who doesn't know you or how to use the search function. And please get control of your emotions. I like to discuss the technical topic than deal with your constant protests.

 

[DaveC]

I don't think we need to keep going in circles... I said I've heard great sounding balanced systems, it's true, but I still think it's not a requirement and adds more complexity than necessary for little to no benefit in home systems, and can have drawbacks. And while I have heard great sounding balanced systems the best are based on SET topology + efficient speakers, not massive balanced SS amps and conventional speakers.

I think a lot of it comes down to what you value in a system, for me amps like Boulder combined with middling efficiency dynamic speakers just don't have the magic more efficient speakers + SET amps provide. My goals are completely coherent sound, and an immersive soundstage that recreates the venue's acoustics.

And not that it matters, but I've had a very experienced audiophile who has owned his own audio business hear my system and hours later Boulder + Focal Grand Utopia in a newly built uber-sound-room prefer my system for exactly those reasons. As you may know by now, I don't believe technical perfection in the conventional sense is what creates seamless, immersive, believable sound. I think conventional wisdom wrt wide dispersion, the presence of short reflections, and multi-way speakers with crossovers near our most sensitive frequencies is severely lacking and partially misguided. Balanced is just another step toward technical perfection that either doesn't matter or is detrimental. Not everyone shares my tastes but quite a lot of people do.

Finally, comparisons with pro sound installations and studios are a bit ridiculous. The factors that make balanced equipment necessary in those settings generally don't exist in home systems.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Amir,

what I'd enjoy reading would be your personal listening journey through a number of high end products both that are single ended and completely balanced designs, how they sounded comparatively, and why that relates with how you interpret the science. no graphs or numbers, just your impressions.

and that these products are ones many of us can relate to in our experiences so we can really get a feel for the reality of what you are saying.

in other words, be relevant to this community.

 

[microstrip]

Here is another review you like with the entire post quoted:


Is that a statement about entertainment value of Myles' review too? It doesn't read that way.


Here is another:

Is that posted for entertainment value?



Is enlightening another word for entertainment?

How about this:


And this is all in the first page of search.

Throw these arguments at someone who doesn't know you or how to use the search function. And please get control of your emotions. I like to discuss the technical topic than deal with your constant protests.

(...) What kind of data can we get from Stereophile SUBJECTIVE reviews? I read them sometimes,mostly for MY own enjoyment and information, never to support my points when exchanging views with people.

You were unlucky in your search - Myles quote was a first post in a thread to congratulate him for a review - something normal between forum friends.

Two others were on products I owned at that time and I was referring my direct opinions, comparing with others.

The last was also a first post, just intended to start a thread on a product that I had no experience and was curious about, due to private information. Yes, I wanted it provocative ...

Please search better, in more than 10k posts, maybe you will find one or two that fit your purposes.

 

[microstrip]

There was an outstanding article by Greg Weaver in February's TAS on how to reduce noise and hum by minimizing AC voltage from chassis gear to ground by altering AC polarity. (...)

Returning to original subject as proposed by Marty, IMHO it is natural that we have many different opinions from people who have tried this technique in different systems with different equipment. In spite of what are often told, grounding and shielding is not a static subject - it has changed a lot and even the classical book of Ralph Morrison on Grounding and Shielding is now in the 6th edition (2016), adapting it self to the new electronics and more polluted electrical environment, in some sense with more physics and less classical electrical knowledge. My copy is unfortunately an old edition, and this subject is not since long my interest, I will however copy a part of the preface to illustrate how even in 2016 grounding is a subject of reflection and that we can expect high-end equipment to use different grounding approaches, not all of them centered just in hum rejection. I hope this post returns the thread to Marty intentions - debating an old technique.

Quoted from Grounding and Shielding: Circuits and Interference 6th Edition by Ralph Morrison

 

[Robh3606]

Here is something to add to this. It's Rane's excellent Tech Note about system grounding and the differing combinations possible. It is also well understood the problem is no industry standard. I have 4 systems currently operating and hands down the quietest of the 4 is the completely balanced system. Not saying the others are excessively noisy but any system I have to put my ear at the edge of a midrange horn to hear any noise at all is darn good!

Rob

 

[mcduman]

again, to go back to the original subject, an isolation transformer has no impact on the amount of ac leakage. i tested with and without Transparent's top of the line isolator, PIMM and measured no difference.
i do not know how this thing can ever be suppressed.

 

[opus112]

If you went over to balanced mains you'd suppress the leakage current substantially. But really leakage current isn't the point, its just a marker for the susceptibility to mains-borne noise. Its noise (ultrasonic garbage) that's the issue, not leakage (50/60Hz). Balanced mains alone doesn't fix ultrasonic noise.

 

[amirm]

Amir,

what I'd enjoy reading would be your personal listening journey through a number of high end products both that are single ended and completely balanced designs, how they sounded comparatively, and why that relates with how you interpret the science. no graphs or numbers, just your impressions.

and that these products are ones many of us can relate to in our experiences so we can really get a feel for the reality of what you are saying.

in other words, be relevant to this community.

Hi Mike. Not sure how a technical thread like this keeps become about me. People who see the title of this thread now and forever in the future, are coming here to learn the topic, not read about me. The technology in your home works as a matter of design and science behind it which can be explained with the need for me to show pictures of expensive gear to people.

If you feel your experience of talking about your gear makes you qualified to say something about this technical topic, by all means, please share. That is why we are here.

 

[Steve williams]

That wasn't the question that Mike asked you I'm sure all of us are waiting for an answer.

 

[amirm]

That wasn't the question that Mike asked you I'm sure all of us are waiting for an answer.

What is the question and why are you waiting for an answer?

 

[Steve williams]

what I'd enjoy reading would be your personal listening journey through a number of high end products both that are single ended and completely balanced designs, how they sounded comparatively, and why that relates with how you interpret the science. no graphs or numbers, just your impressions.

And as he requested, be relevant to the community

 

[microstrip]

again, to go back to the original subject, an isolation transformer has no impact on the amount of ac leakage. i tested with and without Transparent's top of the line isolator, PIMM and measured no difference.
i do not know how this thing can ever be suppressed.

I think that the Transparent Power Isolator MM Power Conditioner is not an isolation transformer - as far as I could understand it isolates only RF. The PIMM with a set of Transparent Power Link MMs sounded great in my system - unfortunately wiring it all with these cables would cost a fortune and I had to let them go.

The tests were carried with the conrad johnson Premier 350 - a good friend of mine was so impressed that he bought this unit and cable for his Premier 350.

AC leakage is not only 50/60 Hz - it is also a lot of noise. It is one of the reasons why many transformers have a screen connected to the ground between primary and secondary.

 

[opus112]

AC leakage is not only 50/60 Hz - it is also a lot of noise.

Given that mains voltage is 115/230V or so, any noise is going to be much lower in level. So in a measurement (which is what mcduman spoke about) the measurement won't change if the noise goes away. The meter only responds to the mains frequency component because its by far the largest in amplitude.

 

[amirm]

And as he requested, be relevant to the community

Thank you for your concern Steve. Here is the problem. Someone took a picture of m while I was at CES this year (I am the one in colorful shirt):

With looks like that, there is no hope whatsoever of the community accepting me into the fold.

I am thinking of getting a name your price tool to see if that helps: