Active Crossovers
- Thread starter Kingrex
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Here's one you could try...
sublimeacoustic.com
Sublime Acoustic Active Crossover
Discover the K235 by Sublime Acoustic, specializing in active crossover, active crossover home audio, and sub woofer crossover systems for audiophiles seeking the pinnacle of sound clarity and warmth since 2015. Shop online today.
sublimeacoustic.com
I have this bought it when it was first launched...Here's one you could try...
Sublime Acoustic Active Crossover
Discover the K235 by Sublime Acoustic, specializing in active crossover, active crossover home audio, and sub woofer crossover systems for audiophiles seeking the pinnacle of sound clarity and warmth since 2015. Shop online today.
Get a digital crossover if you are not using analog. You can start with something like the mini-DSP nano-digi and use your own DAC...although you would then need a 2nd DAC (or third if you are going 3-way). This works exceedingly well. I only switched to an active analog crossover (Accuphase F15L) because I wanted to run my turntable in the system and didn't want to digitize the analog signal.
The nano digi allows you to also do equalization and time alignment of the drivers. While not a full room correction system like TACT or Lyngdorf etc., when you measure, you can improve some of the worst room traits...particularly in the bass. Something you cannot do with an analog active crossover. it really depends on how well you speaker behaves in the room as to whether you need some FR correction or not.
This is a similar concept to the Marchand analog crossovers. The problem with an analog crossover is that you become a speaker designer when you use one. A loudspeaker crossover does not just separate the drivers at a given slope and given frequencies.Here's one you could try...
Sublime Acoustic Active Crossover
Discover the K235 by Sublime Acoustic, specializing in active crossover, active crossover home audio, and sub woofer crossover systems for audiophiles seeking the pinnacle of sound clarity and warmth since 2015. Shop online today.
- You need baffle step correction to account for wave launch from the speaker enclosure, which is determined by the width and shape of the cabinet.
- Electrical slope is different than acoustic slope. Acoustic slope takes into account the driver's natural roll-off, at high or low frequencies.
- Drivers have resonant frequencies, which need to be controlled. This is
done with zobels in a commercial speaker design.
- There is time delay due to driver configuration
These issues are surmountable if you have measurement capability and the knowledge to implement them, but they are tricky or even impossible to implement in some analog crossovers. Digital crossovers make crossover design easier, because you can use software and a computer to automate corrections.
I have been playing around with active crossovers for about twenty years. I have used a Marchand XM44 electronic crossover, XM46 passive line-level crossover, FMOD filters, and even a single cap ahead of the power amp. None were transparent, they all degraded the sound somewhat compared to direct pre to power amp, which is a problem with most if not all crossover boxes, analog or digital. I currently use a miniDSP 2x4/LPS with Room EQ Wizard software corrections, but only for my stereo subs. The monitors are run full-range, filtered via their expertly designed passive crossover.
DSP implemented in software may provide a more transparent solution, but is suitable only for purely digital systems, and requires using a computer in the direct digital chain. Mainly, what has stopped me from trying a full-range crossover using software is that the learning curve is daunting, and satisfaction is not guaranteed.
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it almost sounds like your saying the impact to transparency on the front end is worse than the back end. I thought people said all the chokes, caps, resistors in a passive crossover were more damaging than a device on the signal side.
I do understand the idea of a daunting leaning curve. I watched a guy on youtube set up a mini dsp shd. He hauled butt through the setup. He was very skilled and quick at setting it up. About a 45 minute video to set up a 3 way speaker. At the end, he did say he spent another couple hours to get them to sound the way he liked.
I use to argue with Jason (audiophile junkie) about this. I would say I hear people a try and use DSP (yes different but similar concept) and eventually walked away since they could never get it right. Jason's response was that it was a lot less expensive to make small changes to your digital system than it was to be buying new cables if not major components trying to chase the elusive perfect sound.
I also hear people say a direct coupled driver gives a lot more purity to the sound. You seem to be saying this is not true as the filter on the signal is sonically degrading. This would only be true with a full range drive that has no filter. Only and enclosure to shape the sound.
If you've got a DIY tendency or know somebody who does, a simple passive crossover like below is as transparent and clean as you can get. This one is 500Hz I recently built, but other frequencies are easy to calculate.
We talked offline a little about this. I never asked. Can 2 way like above be set to cut the low frequency also. Like I was going to do a 3 way. But do it with a 2 way for the mid and high. Then another separate one for the woofers.
Crossovers seem to be one of the hardest parts of making a speakers. I know a guy with a horn setup and he worked for 3 years to get it right. Another one gave up and bought the crossover from a guy who is renowned for making them for the particular speaker he had.
It gets a bit trickier to design as complexity goes up, but generally you can do 3-way or however you want. In a well-defined and stable home equipment situation, the "active" part of a crossover isn't really needed since the added electronics can degrade the signal to some extent.
By the way, I'm not a fan of high-passing woofers, no matter how it's accomplished.
To do a 3 way or something similar, you really need the ability to run response plots of the filters to make sure they're doing what you intend with the loads placed on them from upstream and downstream components. If you don't have the capability to do this, you should find someone who does.
Doing crossovers at line level with small-value components opens up flexibility which just isn't possible with traditional speaker-level passive crossovers, such as effective voicing options.
Running response plots just means running a test sweep through the system and using a Mic to record it. I can run a test sweep from my server and use my laptop with a Mini DSP Uni Mic to measure the response.
How can you not use a high pass filter on the woofer. I would assume it would play up to 12,000 or so hertz. PAP the maker of my speaker says I should try to role it off at 250 to 450 hertz.
You also said doing 3 way absorbs so much signal power you become ineffective or something as such at driving the load.
I don't know what you mean by well defined and stable. I am open baffle. I would assume I am very unstable. I have no cabinet to control frequency and output.
I am very much at that experimental stage of this all. I will most likely start with some sort of fully active piece to get an idea of what is what. Then decide if what I hear is worth moving forward.
My speaker does biamp. There is a jumper on the crossover that separates the high and low. I tried two different amps. Total disaster. I want to try again. Thinking about the right amp. I am sort of leaning to a Ayre VX5 Twenty for the woofers.
How can you not use a high pass filter on the woofer. I would assume it would play up to 12,000 or so hertz. PAP the maker of my speaker says I should try to role it off at 250 to 450 hertz.
You also said doing 3 way absorbs so much signal power you become ineffective or something as such at driving the load.
I don't know what you mean by well defined and stable. I am open baffle. I would assume I am very unstable. I have no cabinet to control frequency and output.
I am very much at that experimental stage of this all. I will most likely start with some sort of fully active piece to get an idea of what is what. Then decide if what I hear is worth moving forward.
My speaker does biamp. There is a jumper on the crossover that separates the high and low. I tried two different amps. Total disaster. I want to try again. Thinking about the right amp. I am sort of leaning to a Ayre VX5 Twenty for the woofers.
I was referring to sweeps done electronically, directly on the crossover, not through the speakers. Doing a full-system sweep which includes the speakers won't tell you much about the electronics only in the chain. This is of my crossover per the schematic, done with REW which is an excellent program for doing measurements on purely electronic components.
Stable = the overall configuration and gear is not likely to be changed very much.
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My attempts at fully active crossovers failed due to insufficient knowledge of crossover design and poor measuring capability. After failed attempts, I just used the analog crossovers to roll of the monitors and roll in the subs.
I have two pairs of speakers that use full range drivers with no crossover. I have compared these to my MTM monitors, which use 4th-order passive crossovers. I could not detect any loss of transparency with the passive crossovers.
I meant the learning curve of using convolution filters and software with a computer is daunting. I know how to use a hardware solution like a miniDSP and REW, but a crossover purely implemented with a computer and software is something I find intimidating. Plus you need a DAC for each channel.
I believe the Marchand with all its little op amps and standard quality caps was just too compromised for my system, but from other threads I've read here and elsewhere, transparency of an extra component between an amp and preamp is always an issue.
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THe Nanodigi doesn't have it's own built in DACs. If you want one with built in DACs, many exist but I would never go with such low quality DAC output...I would only use my own high quality DACs. The nano digi only does the digital processing.
Marchand also makes full Tube and also passive line level crossovers...no need to go with an op amp based solution from them...
I haven't tried the Marchand tube crossover but I do have an XM46 passive line level crossover. I replaced the basic paralleled caps with a single Auricap. It is the most transparent crossover solution I've tried, but still audible. The bigger issue is the limited capabilities:
24 dB/octave 4-th order slope (Linkwitz-Riley) standard.
Other slopes optional, asymmetric or symmetric slopes.
Crossover frequency 80Hz - 20 KHz
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New in the market is this one.
kudosaudio.com
Gunnar
Sigao Drive Crossover - British Made | Kudos Audio
Sigao Drive - powered by Silence. The revolutionary external crossover from Kudos Audio.
kudosaudio.com
Gunnar
Only works with their speakers.New in the market is this one.
Sigao Drive Crossover - British Made | Kudos Audio
Sigao Drive - powered by Silence. The revolutionary external crossover from Kudos Audio.
Gunnar
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