advice sought, turntables $10-20k

[howiebrou]

hi wbass

I too am looking at buying a new tonearm and was looking at (among others) the same two arms you are looking at, the Graham phantom iii and the Kuzma 9” or the 11” 4 points. Based on everything I’ve read, and there’s a lot written about both arms, the general consensus is that the 4 point arms are considered by many to be one of the best arms out there. The Phantom is very good and has evolved nicely over the last two decades but it just doesn’t seem to achieve the same reputation that the 4 point arms achieve.

So, once I got it down to which 4 point I thought is was going to be a difficult decision between the 9” (without the vta on the fly feature) and the 11” version which has the vta on the fly. I’ve read that many people think the Kuzma 9” version is maybe their best sounding arm.

I emailed Kuzma and asked that very same question. To my surprise Franc Kuzma personally replied to my email within 24 hours. I thought to myself, now that’s customer service. Nice touch send Bob Graham an email and you’ll be lucky to get a response at All!

Then I thought about it. The answer came easily to me once I realized the type of records most typical audiophiles usually buy. We’ll drop into a used record store from time to time and I’ll usually walk out with 10 or 20 old used records (usually 120 gram non audiophile records). We buy a lot of the many great reissues (usually 180 gram records). Then there’s the occasional 45 rpm reissue lp’s (usually 200 grams). So, what’s my point? My point is, if you get the 9” 4 point, which thickness do you set your vta for? No matter where you set your vta, it’s going to be wrong 66% of the time. Unless you play the same exact thickness of lp’s every time you play another lp (pretty unlikely). If you buy the 11” 4 point with the vta dial, and you take a few minutes with each thickness and dial in the vta setting by ear and you mark down the correct setting for each record thickness all you would need to do is look at the lp, determine whether it’s a 180 gram or a regular 120 gram lp, look at your notes and dial the vta to the correct number for that thickness of lpand you know it’s going to sound great within seconds every time. Good luck doing that with the 9” arm, it’s not possible. I don’t know about you guys but I want ALL my lp’s, regardless of the thickness to always sound their best. Once I realized that, the decision became obvious. I will never own a tonearm without the vta on the fly feature. Thanks.

Scot

How about having one tonearm set for 120g and one set for 180g etc? That would save a lot of faff. I can't imagine changing VTA for every record although I don't disagree that that is the best way to get the best sound.

 

[jbrrp1]

hi wbass

I too am looking at buying a new tonearm and was looking at (among others) the same two arms you are looking at, the Graham phantom iii and the Kuzma 9” or the 11” 4 points. Based on everything I’ve read, and there’s a lot written about both arms, the general consensus is that the 4 point arms are considered by many to be one of the best arms out there. The Phantom is very good and has evolved nicely over the last two decades but it just doesn’t seem to achieve the same reputation that the 4 point arms achieve.

So, once I got it down to which 4 point I thought is was going to be a difficult decision between the 9” (without the vta on the fly feature) and the 11” version which has the vta on the fly. I’ve read that many people think the Kuzma 9” version is maybe their best sounding arm.

I emailed Kuzma and asked that very same question. To my surprise Franc Kuzma personally replied to my email within 24 hours. I thought to myself, now that’s customer service. Nice touch send Bob Graham an email and you’ll be lucky to get a response at All!

Then I thought about it. The answer came easily to me once I realized the type of records most typical audiophiles usually buy. We’ll drop into a used record store from time to time and I’ll usually walk out with 10 or 20 old used records (usually 120 gram non audiophile records). We buy a lot of the many great reissues (usually 180 gram records). Then there’s the occasional 45 rpm reissue lp’s (usually 200 grams). So, what’s my point? My point is, if you get the 9” 4 point, which thickness do you set your vta for? No matter where you set your vta, it’s going to be wrong 66% of the time. Unless you play the same exact thickness of lp’s every time you play another lp (pretty unlikely). If you buy the 11” 4 point with the vta dial, and you take a few minutes with each thickness and dial in the vta setting by ear and you mark down the correct setting for each record thickness all you would need to do is look at the lp, determine whether it’s a 180 gram or a regular 120 gram lp, look at your notes and dial the vta to the correct number for that thickness of lpand you know it’s going to sound great within seconds every time. Good luck doing that with the 9” arm, it’s not possible. I don’t know about you guys but I want ALL my lp’s, regardless of the thickness to always sound their best. Once I realized that, the decision became obvious. I will never own a tonearm without the vta on the fly feature. Thanks.

Scot,

I do this same thing with a U12 Triplanar, and I find it pretty easy to do. That said, thickness/weight of a record is a pretty good 1st order indication of VTA needed, but the groove depths seem to vary enough that I have fiddled with my favorites and dialed in a touch more adjustment by ear just for them, which I note with a sticker on the jacket. Sometimes it makes a pretty nice difference, other times I'm not so sure - - seems to be record dependent. And this is with a MR stylus, which is fussy.

 

[Solypsa]

And of course cutterhead alignment differs a little every time the stylus is changed; and Neumann to Scully etc.

I find that step one is to get the basic vta/sra set using a few different records. Believe me many don't get this far. But hey if you have the patience to dial in vta for every record ( and a vta adjuster that is truly repeatable-accurate ) then that is the next level awesome!

 

[MrC.]

I have an Oasis (Bardo with a plinth), bought it recently with a Ront power supply

Honestly, didn't like it initially, hifi but lacking soul. Frankly my SP10 combo just sounded more natural

I pulled it out of the system and debated on selling, even agreed a deal to trade it on a Monaco 1.5, provenance proved tricky on the Monaco so bailed on that deal.

Decided to give the Oasis another shot, partly as I have some different speakers in the room, Lumen White's that deliver greater resolution. A combination of different support, cables, better setup and the new system has got it working nicely. It's now delivering soul along with resolution and I prefer it to the SP10. It's sounding really good indeed.

Having been in touch with a couple of others who weren't overly taken with the entry level Brinkmann's I thought there was no hope for it. Goes to show how easy it is to attribute poor sound to a particular item when in fact it may just be poor synergy or not ideal setup. That and I'm sure good though it is it's not the last word in analogue replay. Would love to hear a Balance.

In any case, I'm very happy with the Oasis, no problem with bass and would imagine that a well setup Bardo would be an equally nice thing

Have you tried the Balance power supply? Not the tube one, the large aluminum box one? It is one step up from the regular included supply and does not impart the ”wooliness” or somewhat softer attack I heard on the tube supply. If you can borrow one from a dealer, give it a shot.

 

[MrC.]

Do you have any experience with a Bardo? I love to hear more about it. I read one review and it wasn't too great, esp for bass. Where do you service them in the US?

Also, as to bass I heard the bardo up against a balance in the same system. Both used the Brinkmann arms and both had EMT carts, although the balance was the higher end arm and cart. On bass the Bardo was quicker, better attack and lovely decay. The bass is deep as the record and overloads my room on some reggae tracks but is less Bassy on tracks where it is not there. It follows the albums and the music breathes and is alive. I found the Balance to have softer attacks which made the decays seem more extended when really it was just less of a contrast to the transients. It was worse in every way to the Bardo, which was engaging and exciting, at about three times the price. I consider the Bardo to be an audio bargain. My other decks are a Micro Seiki 1500 which I use for mono and a thorens td124. I have a Lenko that is waiting for restoration. If you are thinking in that price range I would select the Bardo and the larger solid state Balance power supply. It is finicky as to arms and I would select a linear tracker of some sort with a short arm - but that’s just my taste.

 

[wbass]

A bit of an update: I'm still working on the turntable question, but I've added a Kuzma 4 Point 14. I'm thinking of trying it first on my SP10mk2 set-up.

I might also be looking into something like the Acoustic Signature Storm.

 

[defride]

Have you tried the Balance power supply? Not the tube one, the large aluminum box one? It is one step up from the regular included supply and does not impart the ”wooliness” or somewhat softer attack I heard on the tube supply. If you can borrow one from a dealer, give it a shot.

No, I've not tried the Balance supply, mine came with the tube supply

Interesting observations, counter to the prevailing feedback from others. Would be interested to hear about the system or systems the compares were done in if you're happy to share.

 

[MrC.]

No, I've not tried the Balance supply, mine came with the tube supply

Interesting observations, counter to the prevailing feedback from others. Would be interested to hear about the system or systems the compares were done in if you're happy to share.

It was an all soulution system using a set of top of then top of the line yg speakers. This was over five years ago. I was not a fan of the sound in general but that’s because YG on top of Soulution was far too “analytical” for me. The differences between turntables for me was stark. I never really believed a turntable could make much of a difference in sound, until that listening session. For me it was revelatory.

 

[GerryM5]

We have a His and hers turntable pair. I Love my AMG GIRO with Turbo Arm, Special Cable and AMG outboard PS. Then my wife use our SoundsSmith B&O 4002 Modified. We are both very happy. The AMG sounds better but my wife likes the B&O ease of use.

 

[Arcus7]

In the 10-20k range I'd choose one of the following decks (I'm currently in the market for such a table also...):

- TechDAS Airforce V Premium
- Bergmann Modi & Odin arm
- Grand Prix Audio Parabolica
- AVID Acutus
- Thrax Yatrus & Schröder arm
- J. Sikora Standard Max

Preference is with the Parabolica or the AirForce V

 

[Andrew S.]

How is the hunt going? any updates you would care to share? I'm getting my vicarious audiophile kicks out of this thread ha ha.

 

[wbass]

Good question, and thanks for checking in. Well, I've come along nicely with tonearms, having recently added the Schroeder CB-1L and Kuzma 4-Point 14. I haven't had a chance yet to do anything with them yet, but I think they'll be replacing the two Jelco arms (an 850M and 850L) on my SP10mk2 set-up.

I'm debating whether to sell the Jelco arms or move them to some other TT. Or, indeed, whether to go with my original plan of getting some kind of upgrade from the SP10mk2. I took a long look at a used TechDAS AFV (non-premium) but decided I wanted to go with a heavier platter. I also considered an Acoustic Signature Storm, but am a little uncertain about their mounting system, which seems to hang a pretty long runner off the bottom of the chassis and seems potentially less stable (I could well be wrong about this) than the sliding mounts I have on my Acoustand Technics plinth.

I've also been considering the Kuzma Stabi R with two arm wings. The only downsides there is that, at $9k, it's a little more than what I want to spend--I've downgraded my budget for a TT after purchasing the two arms--and also I'm not 100% in love with the aesthetics of the R. I don't mind the look, but, on the other hand, the wings look a little funny to me. I've seen a Stabi R in person, however, and it is incredibly well built. I'm very tempted there.

But, mostly, I'm sort of biding my time on a TT upgrade. I may end up mounting the CB-1L and 4-Point 14 on the SP10mk2 and shelving the Jelco arms for a while. Or I may look for something like a used ClearAudio Solution for the Jelcos. Or some other kind of TT that has a lot of arm mounting flexibility.

I tend to like to wait for good used buys to come up and sort of enjoy that hunt, so I might hang tight on the TT upgrade. You occasionally see super-tables going for surprising prices. So maybe I'm just waiting for the right one to come along.

Though, again, I'm mighty tempted by the Stabi R. And the likes of the Motus SQ. And, possibly, TW Acustic. A lot of great tables out there!

 

[jazzdude99]

Apologies in advance for the advice thread, but I'm hoping I can seek out some perspectives from the analog boffins on here....

I'm contemplating a turntable and/or tonearm upgrade. Here are the two set-ups I currently have:

1) Garrard 401, with the following upgrades and other components:
--Artisan Fidelity bearing and heavy stainless-steel platter
--Artisan Fidelity idler wheel
--LDA PSU and speed controller (all installed by AF tech, who also refurbished the 401)
--mass-y wooden plinth (made, I believe by Larry Spence--I bought secondhand with the 401)
--GrooveMaster 12-J tonearm
--Ortofon SPU Synergy G

2) Technics SP10mk2
--refurbed by Artisan Fidelity's technician
--Acoustand two-arm plinth
--Jelco 850L and 850M tonearms
--mix of carts: DL103, DL103R, Koetsu Black, SPU #1E

I like both of these set-ups and have put a fair bit of thought, effort, and expense into them. I plan on hanging on to them indefinitely. However, in this hobby, one's thoughts always turn to possible upgrades. Here are the turntables I'm contemplating, in the $10k-20k range:

TechDAS AirForce V
--possible pros: great company rep, up to four tonearms of any brand and length, air bearing and vacuum hold-down
--possible cons: the V Premium might be better (but out of my budget), motor and platter in same unit

TechDAS AirForce III
--same as above, minus the concern about the inboard motor
--I'd have to find one used

SOTA Cosmos (vacuum model)
--possible pros: factory is a two-hour drive from me, vacuum hold-down, suspension (though I've no experience with a suspended table), possibility for different tonearms (though only one at a time and no 12" arms)
--possible cons: limitations on what length arm can be used, I'm not 100% sure about the aesthetics

Basis 2500 or 2800
--possible pros: strong company rep, vacuum hold-down an option, matching tonearms seem well-regarded
--possible cons: possibly harder to use other-brand arms (?), I'm on the fence the aesthetics and the heavy use of acrylic, 2800 out of budget

Other possible tables:
--TransRotor FatBob, FatBob Reference
--TW Acustic Raven
--Clearaudio Innovation, various models
--Bergmann Galder (really like the styling and the well-thought out features, probably out of my budget)
--Kuzma Stabi R, Stabi Reference 2 (also like the styling, the company rep, and the possibility of natural pairing with 4-Point arms)


I have my possible tonearm upgrade much more narrowed down. It's between:
--Graham Engineering Phantom III
--Kuzma 4-Point 9 or 4-Point 11

I like both for their good reps and their adjustability. I'm getting more serious about cart alignment and want an arm with easily adjustable and repeatable VTA and azimuth settings.

Obviously, something like the Basis will often come with its own arm. That's not a dealbreaker, but I like the option to swap around arms and add other arms in the future. Multi-arm set-up is also nice.

For the 'table, I'm looking for something that is a noticeable upgrade from the two-set-ups I already own. My questions for the group (with apologies and thanks!):
--What are your favorites from my possible upgrade list? Thanks to those who might mention other tables, but I've done a fair bit of research to narrow down to the above.
--How important or beneficial is a well-implemented vacuum hold-down system? From the above, it's probably clear that this is of great interest to me. However, my experience with other clamping methods (VPI periphery ring and Michell reflex clamp) has been somewhat ambiguous, sometimes beneficial, sometimes making LP playback a little dull.
--Are there other factors or pros and cons to the above I'm missing?
--Are the Garrard 401 and SP10mk2 set-ups I own now "good enough" already? I know there are some out there who feel these vintage tables, well restored and set up, can be a platform for almost any arm or cart. Still, I'm curious if I can improve on what I already have. One option, of course, is to add a Graham or Kuzma arm to my SP10mk2, the plinth of which should take them. But I'm also drawn to the idea of keeping the dual Jelco arms as is and building another turntable platform from scratch.

I'll figure out cartridge(s) later. The Kuzma and Graham seem to be able handle most carts. The rest of my equipment, in brief:

--Allnic H7000 phono-pre
--Audio Research Reference 40 pre
--Sanders Sound ESL monoblocks
--Magnepan 3.7i
--dual 15" subs

I plan to get out and hear as many of my candidates as possible. But for now I'd very much appreciate the experiences of the great analog folks on these forums.

Thanks again for any thoughts, perspectives, and advice!

Hi Wbass

I’m curious on your experience sound-wise between the Garrard 401 and the Technics SP10-2. I have an SP10-2 which I’m using with an SME 312s/ London reference cartridge (also has an aftermarket 20 lb stainless platter) and I’m considering a second table. What does the 401 do that the technics doesn’t and vice versa???

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers

Andy

 

[wbass]

Hi Wbass

I’m curious on your experience sound-wise between the Garrard 401 and the Technics SP10-2. I have an SP10-2 which I’m using with an SME 312s/ London reference cartridge (also has an aftermarket 20 lb stainless platter) and I’m considering a second table. What does the 401 do that the technics doesn’t and vice versa???

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers

Andy

Hi, Andy, no brilliant thoughts here, I'm afraid. I guess I agree with the general consensus, on various forums, that the 401 has good drive. And that the SP10mk2 offers good pitch stability and gives a slightly more uniform cast to most LPs (could be a good or bad thing). But I have such different arms and carts on the two decks that I'm not sure I can give any more profound impressions than that.

 

[jazzdude99]

Hi, Andy, no brilliant thoughts here, I'm afraid. I guess I agree with the general consensus, on various forums, that the 401 has good drive. And that the SP10mk2 offers good pitch stability and gives a slightly more uniform cast to most LPs (could be a good or bad thing). But I have such different arms and carts on the two decks that I'm not sure I can give any more profound impressions than that.

Great - thanks for your thoughts!

 

[wbass]

FWIW, I guess I've come to prefer the SP10mk2 on a purely ergonomic level. Starts and stops on a dime. Never wavers in speed. My Garrard, with its various upgrades, is pretty darn solid, too, but it takes a sec to spin up and down.

 

[GerryM5]

Apologies in advance for the advice thread, but I'm hoping I can seek out some perspectives from the analog boffins on here....

I'm contemplating a turntable and/or tonearm upgrade. Here are the two set-ups I currently have:

1) Garrard 401, with the following upgrades and other components:
--Artisan Fidelity bearing and heavy stainless-steel platter
--Artisan Fidelity idler wheel
--LDA PSU and speed controller (all installed by AF tech, who also refurbished the 401)
--mass-y wooden plinth (made, I believe by Larry Spence--I bought secondhand with the 401)
--GrooveMaster 12-J tonearm
--Ortofon SPU Synergy G

2) Technics SP10mk2
--refurbed by Artisan Fidelity's technician
--Acoustand two-arm plinth
--Jelco 850L and 850M tonearms
--mix of carts: DL103, DL103R, Koetsu Black, SPU #1E

I like both of these set-ups and have put a fair bit of thought, effort, and expense into them. I plan on hanging on to them indefinitely. However, in this hobby, one's thoughts always turn to possible upgrades. Here are the turntables I'm contemplating, in the $10k-20k range:

TechDAS AirForce V
--possible pros: great company rep, up to four tonearms of any brand and length, air bearing and vacuum hold-down
--possible cons: the V Premium might be better (but out of my budget), motor and platter in same unit

TechDAS AirForce III
--same as above, minus the concern about the inboard motor
--I'd have to find one used

SOTA Cosmos (vacuum model)
--possible pros: factory is a two-hour drive from me, vacuum hold-down, suspension (though I've no experience with a suspended table), possibility for different tonearms (though only one at a time and no 12" arms)
--possible cons: limitations on what length arm can be used, I'm not 100% sure about the aesthetics

Basis 2500 or 2800
--possible pros: strong company rep, vacuum hold-down an option, matching tonearms seem well-regarded
--possible cons: possibly harder to use other-brand arms (?), I'm on the fence the aesthetics and the heavy use of acrylic, 2800 out of budget

Other possible tables:
--TransRotor FatBob, FatBob Reference
--TW Acustic Raven
--Clearaudio Innovation, various models
--Bergmann Galder (really like the styling and the well-thought out features, probably out of my budget)
--Kuzma Stabi R, Stabi Reference 2 (also like the styling, the company rep, and the possibility of natural pairing with 4-Point arms)


I have my possible tonearm upgrade much more narrowed down. It's between:
--Graham Engineering Phantom III
--Kuzma 4-Point 9 or 4-Point 11

I like both for their good reps and their adjustability. I'm getting more serious about cart alignment and want an arm with easily adjustable and repeatable VTA and azimuth settings.

Obviously, something like the Basis will often come with its own arm. That's not a dealbreaker, but I like the option to swap around arms and add other arms in the future. Multi-arm set-up is also nice.

For the 'table, I'm looking for something that is a noticeable upgrade from the two-set-ups I already own. My questions for the group (with apologies and thanks!):
--What are your favorites from my possible upgrade list? Thanks to those who might mention other tables, but I've done a fair bit of research to narrow down to the above.
--How important or beneficial is a well-implemented vacuum hold-down system? From the above, it's probably clear that this is of great interest to me. However, my experience with other clamping methods (VPI periphery ring and Michell reflex clamp) has been somewhat ambiguous, sometimes beneficial, sometimes making LP playback a little dull.
--Are there other factors or pros and cons to the above I'm missing?
--Are the Garrard 401 and SP10mk2 set-ups I own now "good enough" already? I know there are some out there who feel these vintage tables, well restored and set up, can be a platform for almost any arm or cart. Still, I'm curious if I can improve on what I already have. One option, of course, is to add a Graham or Kuzma arm to my SP10mk2, the plinth of which should take them. But I'm also drawn to the idea of keeping the dual Jelco arms as is and building another turntable platform from scratch.

I'll figure out cartridge(s) later. The Kuzma and Graham seem to be able handle most carts. The rest of my equipment, in brief:

--Allnic H7000 phono-pre
--Audio Research Reference 40 pre
--Sanders Sound ESL monoblocks
--Magnepan 3.7i
--dual 15" subs

I plan to get out and hear as many of my candidates as possible. But for now I'd very much appreciate the experiences of the great analog folks on these forums.

Thanks again for any thoughts, perspectives, and advice!

I think the AMG Vella V12 is a great turntable combination. There's a use one for sale at,

AMG Viella V12 Turntable

Excel Audio is proud to carry fine turntables from AMG. If you have any questions about the AMG Viella V12 Turntable, or any other product we carry, please call us at 949-933-1599. We have a staff of very knowledgable audio experts who can help you pick from our selection of turntables.

excelaudio.us

The AMG Vella has receive Raves in reviews'
I have AMG Giro and it performs beautifully.

 

[hogen]

Good question, and thanks for checking in. Well, I've come along nicely with tonearms, having recently added the Schroeder CB-1L and Kuzma 4-Point 14. I haven't had a chance yet to do anything with them yet, but I think they'll be replacing the two Jelco arms (an 850M and 850L) on my SP10mk2 set-up.

I'm debating whether to sell the Jelco arms or move them to some other TT. Or, indeed, whether to go with my original plan of getting some kind of upgrade from the SP10mk2. I took a long look at a used TechDAS AFV (non-premium) but decided I wanted to go with a heavier platter. I also considered an Acoustic Signature Storm, but am a little uncertain about their mounting system, which seems to hang a pretty long runner off the bottom of the chassis and seems potentially less stable (I could well be wrong about this) than the sliding mounts I have on my Acoustand Technics plinth.

I've also been considering the Kuzma Stabi R with two arm wings. The only downsides there is that, at $9k, it's a little more than what I want to spend--I've downgraded my budget for a TT after purchasing the two arms--and also I'm not 100% in love with the aesthetics of the R. I don't mind the look, but, on the other hand, the wings look a little funny to me. I've seen a Stabi R in person, however, and it is incredibly well built. I'm very tempted there.

But, mostly, I'm sort of biding my time on a TT upgrade. I may end up mounting the CB-1L and 4-Point 14 on the SP10mk2 and shelving the Jelco arms for a while. Or I may look for something like a used ClearAudio Solution for the Jelcos. Or some other kind of TT that has a lot of arm mounting flexibility.

I tend to like to wait for good used buys to come up and sort of enjoy that hunt, so I might hang tight on the TT upgrade. You occasionally see super-tables going for surprising prices. So maybe I'm just waiting for the right one to come along.

Though, again, I'm mighty tempted by the Stabi R. And the likes of the Motus SQ. And, possibly, TW Acustic. A lot of great tables out there!

One vote here for the Acoustic Signature, especially NEO models, with Acoustic Signature NEO arms. I just tried the
5000 Neo arm on my Invictus Jr, and its a really fantastic arm, very much better than the old normal 5000.

 

[sktn77a]

Hi: I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the Linn LP12 (is it banned on this board)? I haven't heard many of the turntables mentioned in this thread but I have heard the Linn compared to the Nottingham, TD124/SME, and 401/SME on the same day with the same ancillary equipment. No comparison, the LP12 was way better than any of those (the TD124 and 401 were top spec renovations).

Just a thought.

 

[No Regrets]

Hi: I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the Linn LP12 (is it banned on this board)? I haven't heard many of the turntables mentioned in this thread but I have heard the Linn compared to the Nottingham, TD124/SME, and 401/SME on the same day with the same ancillary equipment. No comparison, the LP12 was way better than any of those (the TD124 and 401 were top spec renovations).

Just a thought.

I don't know that the Linn LP12 is necessarily banned from this board, but it is true that you do not see it mentioned very often on these pages. Nevertheless, I have been enjoying my LP12/Naim ARO/DC power supply/Benz Zebrawood Ruby cartridge....



Best wishes,
Don