Aesthetix Io Users Group

[OGH]

Dear friends - now for something else. I am at our shared holiday house in Gran Canaria, enjoying the sun and swim (warm thoughts to you all). We brought stands, in our suitcases, to the Audioengine 5a+ speakers we brought down here some years ago - and yes, they now sound much better. This is probably old news to most of you (it is like a major speaker upgrade). My point, here, is that with my little Fiio X3 v2, I can play my Aesthetix Io recordings from my vinyl rig - as well as streaming (from Qobuz). I've done this kind of thing for ten years (recording vinyl, first on a Korg, later on the Tascam DA-3000). I must admit, the gap is getting smaller! Streaming (through Qobuz) sounds better than before. So maybe, better for the first fifteen minutes or so. Then I turn to the vinyl recording (Lyra Atlas - > Io). Thats when we turn on the candle lights - and keep on listening. Like Booker T and the MGs: And now.

 

[OGH]

Listening to a "what's not best" level system, like I do down here in Gran Canaria, can in fact be quite instructive. I better understand the point of "remastering". In my main rig at home, 80 percent - or more - of remastering does not work out. I prefer the fresh tape sound, used on the original LP (if the production is decent, and the recording). The ambience, the sound between the notes, the layering of the music, the emotional impact - all this is better, compared to the protool-kind of editing. You all know this, I guess. But down here, streaming from Qobuz, with the lowly Fiio x3 as sound card, and the 'proletarian' Audioengine A5+ speakers, two points are very clear: speaker positioning - with our new stands - 'playing with the room' - plays a big role, whatever the level of the system, - and some of the remasters do sound better - like Procol Harum: Pandora's box. R I P Gary Brooker - what an amazing artist.

 

[Tirebiter]

Here is a bit of logic check for the group. I have my Io (w/o volume control) linked to a Lamm LL2 then to a pair of ML2.1's. The LL2 is known for having a higher gain output range and one of the changes in the LL2.1 was an overall reduction relative gain. Also of note is that the pair of volume controls on the LL2 (and LL2.1) are stepped. Past experience has shown me that the LL2 has been difficult to set precise listening volume because one step may be too low and the next a bit too high.

To compensate, I set up each Io power supply at ATT4 (-18dB) even though I am running a Koetsu Blue Lace LOMC. This results in less gain between volume steps on the LL2 and thus finer overall volume control. In rough terms, I used to use maybe 25% of max settings and now use about 33% for about the same volume output from the LL2.

My question is this, from a theoretical equipment perspective to obtain best sonics should I be letting the Io do more work in the gain department and forego fine volume control on the LL2 or keep things as they are?

Brock

 

[dan31]

This is an experiment you will have to make. I am using ATT4 as well. My IO is without volume control. This has reduced output from the IO so I can use more of the volume control in my preamp. My Lyra has an 0.5 mv output.

A change to ATT3 will add more gain and is subtle but noticeable.

 

[Kcin]

It is a struggle with noise up front and volume at the end of it all. Its a balancing act. Add to that , some preamps might be more linear in their mid range of the control so you may not be able to hear that but you could see it with a scope.

Experiment.!

 

[Tirebiter]

It is a struggle with noise up front and volume at the end of it all. Its a balancing act. Add to that , some preamps might be more linear in their mid range of the control so you may not be able to hear that but you could see it with a scope.

Experiment.!

I realize now that your statement brings up the crux of my question...will I experience more noise generation from the Io or the Lamm. My logic would dictate that more noise is probably going to come from the Io because it has a more onerous job to do given the low output of the Blue Lace, which is 0.24mv or thereabouts.

So let the experiments begin. It is a bit tough given my current equipment stand but have ordered a Timbernation rack that should make for better access to the power supplies. I am now thinking I am going to start by removing the appropriate tubes per the Io manual and moving down to ATT5. I already know that the LL2 is dead silent when cranked up when connected to digital sources so the move makes sense to me. We shall see....

Brock

 

[abeidrov]

Noise is not the only matter to consider. I use Io at the maximum gain setting as it produces the best dynamics at this setting. That was also my dealer recommendation: try the highest gain setting, that does not distort. I tried a lower setting, but it sounded flatter in comparison, so I am back at ATT1.

 

[Tirebiter]

Noise is not the only matter to consider. I use Io at the maximum gain setting as it produces the best dynamics at this setting. That was also my dealer recommendation: try the highest gain setting, that does not distort. I tried a lower setting, but it sounded flatter in comparison, so I am back at ATT1.

First off, it was a DOH moment this morning when I opened up a PS and realized my mistaken recollection as to where the gain jumpers are located. Getting old...yeah, that's my excuse! No matter, I needed to get inside to straighten up the chokes that had "flopped" over a bit as seen in my original set of pics.,

it is good to have alternate viewpoints and again offers up solid reasoning as to why I should try alternate scenarios. It is snowing here again so it will be a good day to experiment. Good thing I enjoy the tinkering as much as listening! Part of me wonders what I will do if I ever get the system fully sorted....

 

[dan31]

Remember to let the IO fully power down between changes. Lots of energy stored. I can’t remember if it’s 20 or 30 minutes.
Aesthetix do not recommend ATT5. Try it if you must.
Does the Lamm have the potential to reduce gain? Perhaps increase the IO to ATT2 or ATT1 if the Lamm can adjust input gain. I have this option on my preamp.

 

[Tirebiter]

Remember to let the IO fully power down between changes. Lots of energy stored. I can’t remember if it’s 20 or 30 minutes.
Aesthetix do not recommend ATT5. Try it if you must.
Does the Lamm have the potential to reduce gain? Perhaps increase the IO to ATT2 or ATT1 if the Lamm can adjust input gain. I have this option on my preamp.

I let the unit power down overnight for this change. The manual advises at least 20 minutes and also states that if ATT5 is selected that V5 and V6 be removed. I did a quick dB measurement after an hour of warming back up and found that at my "reference" setting on the LL2 the dB reading at the speakers (about an inch from the mid-range horn) had dropped from 64dB down to 53dB. Not surprising though I realize that proof will be in the listening pudding which is next on the agenda...

...and unfortunately, I cannot fiddle with the LL2 input gain. I suppose negative comments prompted Vladimir to alter his design and begin producing the LL2.1...

 

[dan31]

I do see options for the Lamm output gain. I take it you are using the lower output option. Good luck with your experiments.

 

[Tirebiter]

As they say in football "that is why the games are played" is also true here. As experienced by @abeidrov my ATT5 listening impressions were not positive. 3D soundstage shrank and the overall sound was quite flat. As I am always looking for analogies to explain my observations and it seems as though data was missing.,.and in a way, I suppose it was. Without proper gain from the phono stage, does it make sense to say that much of the lower level (microvolt) information is simply not amplified by the phono stage and therefore it is unrealistic to expect the LL2 to amplify signals that do not exist? That seems to be the case to me.

Currently at ATT1 and have only listened a short bit to get a quick comparison. On the positive side, soundstage is back and there is a degree of liveliness that is now evident. No surprise that the volume knobs are again limited in range but not as much as expected. Looks like I will be at around 25% to be at max volumes I would normally listen.

So far, the only negative is the noise floor has also increased, which again should have not be a surprise for me. More listening at ATT1 is in order and perhaps higher noise suggests that I have some tube work to perform. I see more tinkering in my future...

Brock

 

[abeidrov]

As they say in football "that is why the games are played" is also true here. As experienced by @abeidrov my ATT5 listening impressions were not positive. 3D soundstage shrank and the overall sound was quite flat. As I am always looking for analogies to explain my observations and it seems as though data was missing.,.and in a way, I suppose it was. Without proper gain from the phono stage, does it make sense to say that much of the lower level (microvolt) information is simply not amplified by the phono stage and therefore it is unrealistic to expect the LL2 to amplify signals that do not exist? That seems to be the case to me.

Currently at ATT1 and have only listened a short bit to get a quick comparison. On the positive side, soundstage is back and there is a degree of liveliness that is now evident. No surprise that the volume knobs are again limited in range but not as much as expected. Looks like I will be at around 25% to be at max volumes I would normally listen.

So far, the only negative is the noise floor has also increased, which again should have not be a surprise for me. More listening at ATT1 is in order and perhaps higher noise suggests that I have some tube work to perform. I see more tinkering in my future...

Brock

As for the tube work, I highly recommend getting these beauties: https://tubedepot.com/products/telefunken-ecc83-12ax7-smooth-plate
Maybe just for the first 2 stages, choose the low noise and balanced triodes options. In my experience, they are less noisy than the stock ones.

 

[Tirebiter]

As for the tube work, I highly recommend getting these beauties: https://tubedepot.com/products/telefunken-ecc83-12ax7-smooth-plate
Maybe just for the first 2 stages, choose the low noise and balanced triodes options. In my experience, they are less noisy than the stock ones.

My Io was pretty well stocked with Tele smooth plates when I purchased it. There were, however, a couple of mismatches. For instance a Tele ribbed plate in one channel with a similarly located Siemens in the other. I purchased a pair of low noise Red Tip Medical Grade smooth plate Tele's to start the weeding out process and so far have managed to lower the noise on one channel relative to the other. This indicates to me that even though I now have a full compliment of smooth plate Tele's that supposedly were "matched" that the matching may have been via Gm numbers and not through curve tracing.

This brings up another question I have concerning the three amplification stages. Each of the three contain two 12AX7's and should they be closely matched? For instance, assuming the tube pairs are matched between channels, is it best to match tubes in the V1/V2 with the same tube model or can they be mixed? I currently have the Red Tips in the V1 slots and smooth plates in the V2 with the thinking that the first tube the signal hits is the most important but now wondering if the pairing makes a significant difference. Today I plan to put both Red Tips in V1/V2 slots for one channel and see what that does in terms of noise.

For the time being I have settled in with ATT2 because it gives me a bit more leeway on volume control and still sounds much better than ATT4 or ATT5 did.

 

[oldvinyl]

My Io was pretty well stocked with Tele smooth plates when I purchased it. There were, however, a couple of mismatches. For instance a Tele ribbed plate in one channel with a similarly located Siemens in the other. I purchased a pair of low noise Red Tip Medical Grade smooth plate Tele's to start the weeding out process and so far have managed to lower the noise on one channel relative to the other. This indicates to me that even though I now have a full compliment of smooth plate Tele's that supposedly were "matched" that the matching may have been via Gm numbers and not through curve tracing.

This brings up another question I have concerning the three amplification stages. Each of the three contain two 12AX7's and should they be closely matched? For instance, assuming the tube pairs are matched between channels, is it best to match tubes in the V1/V2 with the same tube model or can they be mixed? I currently have the Red Tips in the V1 slots and smooth plates in the V2 with the thinking that the first tube the signal hits is the most important but now wondering if the pairing makes a significant difference. Today I plan to put both Red Tips in V1/V2 slots for one channel and see what that does in terms of noise.

For the time being I have settled in with ATT2 because it gives me a bit more leeway on volume control and still sounds much better than ATT4 or ATT5 did.

A couple thoughts - the recommended setting for the Io (if you have the volume controls) is around 11 am on the dials. That way, the preamp can turn up and down the volume. And, tube rush from the Io is minimized. If you have too much gain from the Io, then the external preamp will essentially be used to reduce the volume.

V1 and V2 are paralleled from the cartridge input, their outputs "sum" to feed V3. The output of V3 feeds V5. V4 and V6 supply V3 and V5. The ideal matching is V1 in left channel to V1 in right channel. V1 and V2 in left channel matched (since they are in parallel). V2 in left channel to V2 in right channel, etc. This diagram may help.

 

[Tirebiter]

Thank you @oldvinyl excellent info! As it happened, I was wondering about the Io matching protocol and sent Aesthetix Support an email a few days ago but have yet to receive a response. I think your info provided exactly what I was looking for.

In essence, I asked if the V1/V2 channel pair needed to be a matched quad. I know that I don't currently have four matched tubes but do know that I have 2 matched pairs of low noise 12AX7s that have been installed per your recommendations.

I have a couple of potentially wonky Tele's so have been experimenting with four Sovtek LPS in the V5/V6 positions. Based on the diagram you provided, I have moved Tele's from V4 slots to the V5 positions and relocated V5 LPS's in the V4 positions to serve as the current sources. We shall see what develops and then look at trying my last gain setting, ATT3.

Brock

 

[oldvinyl]

Thank you @oldvinyl excellent info! As it happened, I was wondering about the Io matching protocol and sent Aesthetix Support an email a few days ago but have yet to receive a response. I think your info provided exactly what I was looking for.

In essence, I asked if the V1/V2 channel pair needed to be a matched quad. I know that I don't currently have four matched tubes but do know that I have 2 matched pairs of low noise 12AX7s that have been installed per your recommendations.

I have a couple of potentially wonky Tele's so have been experimenting with four Sovtek LPS in the V5/V6 positions. Based on the diagram you provided, I have moved Tele's from V4 slots to the V5 positions and relocated V5 LPS's in the V4 positions to serve as the current sources. We shall see what develops and then look at trying my last gain setting, ATT3.

Brock

While a matched quad is ideal, I have had great results with 2 matched pairs. It is getting more and more difficult to find well matched and quiet Telefunkens these days.

 

[OGH]

I am the lucky owner of Io with volume. Getting the volume right is a major factor for the sound. Here is some more info, hopefully helpful for others also.

The controls are big rotary knobs, that run through 45 hard-wired steps. These rotate like the hour arm on a clock. They go from a 7:00 position (zero volume), to a middle 12:00 position, and up to 18:00 (max volume). (This is European time, in US time they go from 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM).

I have a little marker on the front of each knob, so it is easier to see its exact position. The faceplate have four long and four short markings around each knob, also helping the «navigation». Like compass markings. When you turn the volume to max, it is pointing fully downwards (18 o’clock = 6 PM). The starting point (no sound) however is a bit to the «southeast» or 7 o’clock.

There are 45 steps in the volume control, to ensure a smooth gradient, and each of them are hard-wired for an optimal connection.

Here are some numbers. At zero, gain position 1 of 45 steps, gain is 0. At position 2 the gain is 14,8, and at position 3 it is 21,1 – and so on upwards, according to the «Aesthetix_Io_GainbyVolume.pdf». The gain on the middle / 12 o’clock / due north position of the volume knob is 48,8.

The gain in the first usable position, 9 o’clock, is 31,7 according to this table. The next marker, ca 10:30, is 15 steps up from zero, 40,8 gain. The next big middle middle 12 o clock is 21 steps up, 48,8 gain, and the next ca 13:30 marker is 27 steps up, 55,3 gain. The 15 o’clock is 60.9 gain. Max gain is 82,5. I never go up that far. (Correct me if some numbers are wrong)

Now to the meat of the matter. I prefer the Io with the volume between 14 and 15 o’clock, the gain is ca 55-60, with the Lyra Clavis 0,56 mv signal.

Sometimes, I like to turn the Io up, even to up to 15:30, ca 68 gain. Not often, though. If I had the Io without volume, I might set it ca 55, and go on from there.

The main rule: the Io volume is part of a mix, even if you have it direct to the amp or through a preamp. Get it optimal.

Next main rule: unless other things apply, «more power to the Io» - meaning, it drives a larger proportion of the total gain chain in the system – often applies (it does in my case).

I like a preamp between the Io and the amps, but I note better sound when the Io takes over most of the gain. Up to a point (15:30 / 3:30 pm) often, in my system. This volume mix factor - honors to Aesthetix - seems partly independent of whether the signal is sent direct of thru the preamp.

 

[OGH]

I am the lucky owner of Io with volume. Getting the volume right is a major factor for the sound. Here is some more info, hopefully helpful for others also.

The controls are big rotary knobs, that run through 45 hard-wired steps. These rotate like the hour arm on a clock. They go from a 7:00 position (zero volume), to a middle 12:00 position, and up to 18:00 (max volume). (This is European time, in US time they go from 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM).

I have a little marker on the front of each knob, so it is easier to see its exact position. The faceplate have four long and four short markings around each knob, also helping the «navigation». Like compass markings. When you turn the volume to max, it is pointing fully downwards, due south (18 o’clock = 6 PM). The starting point (no sound) however is a bit to the «southwest" at 7 o’clock.

There are 45 steps in the volume control, to ensure a smooth gradient, and each of them are hard-wired for an optimal connection.

Here are some numbers. At zero, gain position 1 of 45 steps, gain is 0. At position 2 the gain is 14,8, and at position 3 it is 21,1 – and so on upwards, according to the «Aesthetix_Io_GainbyVolume.pdf». The gain on the middle / 12 o’clock / due north position of the volume knob is 48,8.

The gain in the first usable position, 9 o’clock, is 31,7 according to this table. The next marker, ca 10:30, is 15 steps up from zero, 40,8 gain. The next big middle marker 12 o clock is 21 steps up, 48,8 gain, and the next smaller marker ca 13:30 marker is 27 steps up, 55,3 gain. The 15 o’clock big markere i 60.9 gain. Max gain is 82,5. I never go up that far. (Correct me if some numbers are wrong)

Now to the meat of the matter. I prefer the Io with the volume between 14 and 15 o’clock, the gain is ca 55-60, with the Lyra Clavis 0,56 mv signal.

Sometimes, I like to turn the Io up, even to up to 15:30, ca 68 gain. Not often, though. If I had the Io without volume, I might set it ca 55, and go on from there.

The main rule: the Io volume is part of a mix, even if you have it direct to the amp or through a preamp. Get it optimal.

Next main rule: unless other things apply, «more power to the Io» - meaning, it drives a larger proportion of the total gain chain in the system – often applies (it does in my case).

I like a preamp between the Io and the amps, but I note better sound when the Io takes over most of the gain. Up to a point (15:30 / 3:30 pm) often, in my system. This volume mix factor - honors to Aesthetix - seems partly independent of whether the signal is sent direct of thru the preamp.

 

[OGH]

Sorry, don't know why my post appears twice. Long-winded enough as is ; - )