Aesthetix Io Users Group

[OGH]

Getting back to the tube debate - this is complex, as was noted allready in the now quite famous posts from Albert Porter.

Why? Because the tube changes interact. What you change in the first gain stage will impact on changes down the line, and vice versa.

But for now, I think a place to start is with the first gain stage, that clearly has the largest impact on the sound.

Here, opinions are divided. Most go for good NOS tubes. Some go for new production tubes.

There are two main issues. The tube should be ultra low noise. And it should sound ok, be musical.

I have tested recent JJ and Sovtek LPS tubes that both qualify for "ultra low noise". The JJs were shipped from Aesthetix.

I have also tested NOS. These usually have a bit more noise - "almost ultra low".
But in the best cases, they are fine, compared to the best selected ultra low-noise new tubes.

I had 1970s Telefunken in the first gain stage that were fine until they gradually became too noisy. I changed to Philips Herleen from the same period, selected for low noise, and am mainly happy with them. Although maybe not quite as "musical" as the Tele's, they have their own musicality, a bit more of a rock sound maybe. (Telefunken best for Mozart? Philips Herleen better for Beach boys: Holland? Maybe).

This also has to do with what you want the Io to sound like. Like an ultralinear precision performer? Or more organic, pleasing, natural? Some of the new production tubes - like the selected LPS I have - probably outperform my NOS tubes in some ways, like a wider flat frequency curve. They sound more "modern". But maybe also more "flat" and "hard".

Although I personally find good NOS tubes in the first gain stage to be more involving and pleasing than new production tubes, I fully respect other choices, with more modern sound profiles. It is a matter of taste. And it also depends on the synergy with the rest of the system.

A main fact emerges: you can adjust the Io - to a great extent - towards the sound you like.

 

[audioquest4life]

Thanks, I will check with Aesthetix.

Your comment on pleasing sound is spot on. Precisely because the system works so well "with" (and within) the main living / listening room, I enjoy the sound from adjacent rooms also, with the doors open, like the kitchen, e g preparing dinner. I don't feel a neeed for a distributed system. Instead we like the way the sound flows, from the living room.

@OGH

Have not checked in for a while. Did you ever reach out to Aesthetix (Glen or Jim White) to see which power supplies you have? I remember your story about how long it took previously for your Io to get its last upgrade, including shipping delays. If your Io does not have the latest power supplies, do you think you will do the upgrade?

Been busy lately, recovering From surgery, planning on a major move, and just work. I still have not installed the new TRA9 TRANSROTOR tonearm with the Air Tight Opus 1. The Opus 1 is on one of the SME V arms…sounds great. Really, I like both the Soundsmith Hyperion and Air Tight Opus 1, equally.

When I do have free time, long listening sessions. My friend invited another friend over a few weeks ago and we went from a few records, to lunch, dinner, and late night listening. It’s all the same, people are just mesmerized by the music. The combination of all the equipment, to include tubes, and room, makes for a perfect listening session every time. My friends don’t care how I go to this point, but they appreciate the sound. So different and more real sounding than they have ever heard before On a 2 channel stereo.

Ciao,

Audioquest4life

 

[OGH]

Audioquest4life - thanks, I hope you are well, and enjoy listening to music!

A question: does the Io have a specific "input capacitance"? I can't find a figure for this, in the manual or on the web.

I am asking, due to reading debate on a new phono stage (Hagerman Audio Labs Archiver JFET Equalization Phonostage) described at Analogplanet.com, where Jim Hagerman writes, in the comments field:

"To be frank, the capacitance can be lowered greatly, but then the stage becomes sensitive to radio, WiFi, and cell phone interference. Pick your poison."

I am no expert on this (surprise!) but I understand - e g from my Lyra Atlas manual - that the general idea is that lower capacitance translates to better sound. More of the very weak fragile signal from the cart survives the trip to the phono stage.

 

[audioquest4life]

Hallo OGH,

Thanks for asking. Taking it day by day, but getting music listening in for sure.

The IO does not have input capacitance settings. The settings that the Io does have include input impedance and output connections for different phase settings (+/-). Perhaps someone does not know much about the Io and is making an assertion based on that lack of knowledge. Been an owner for nearly 17 years and throughout that time, not once recall any other owners mentioning input capacitance.

A quick search indicates that input capacitance parameter, is defined as the capacitance between the input terminals of an op amp with either input grounded. It is one of a group of parasitic elements affecting input impedance. Www.sciencedirect.com Not sure if this helps or is even relevant. Take care.

Ciao,

Audioquest4life

 

[Kcin]

I’m going to assume that 99.9% of Io users deploy a MC cartridge - the inductance of a MC cartridge is so low that the impact of input capacitance on frequency response is of the Io is inconsequential- it doesn’t have capacitance settings. For MM this coil inductance is higher so having capacitance settings is good to tune the reactance tank.

l’m certain it’s not important enough for 99% of users or Jim White would have made it obvious.

It is quite common to have a small shunt cap on the input of a phono stage -it forms a low pass filter for RF I’d be surprised if the Io didn’t have one-usually in the order of a few hundred picofarads- not consequential for the audio band.

Now when we’re talking about damping resonance peaks above 100khz and the like and controlling the cantilever motor for MC we are on a different subject with strong views by say, J Carr of LYRA and Mr. Karsten of Atmasphere. Lots out there to read on that.

 

[OGH]

Kcin, thanks. I follow Lyra's advice regarding low capacitance of the cartridge/phono stage connection (tonearm wire + cable) - and won't worry about the Io.

Another question. I have the Io in a massive stone rack. With extra support from beams in the basement. A seller of wood audio racks just told me that stone is a bad choice for the sound - wood is better. Have anyone actually experienced this, with the Io (and power supplies)?

 

[Kcin]

I'm not sure- Lots of people have strong opinions on "natural" products to use as bases/ stands. You have to try. HRS uses granite for its bases and it had profound positive affect for my Io that used to sit on a Finite Elemente maple wood rack alone- you can see my implementation in the pic. On its own without HRS Elastomers/science I would say granite is a foul sounding material for a base... not much above a glass shelf.

There are hi tech options as well. Most very expensive. Here it is good to have a dealer let you try before you buy.

Many in our audio group have an affinity for pure gabon ebony set up as blocking under audio components and swear by tuning the spacing and thickness. It is becoming difficult to find. I have some but not yet tried it.

FWIW I recently tried a 21KUSD preamp in front of the Io. What I gained was some dynamics in the bottom, maybe a touch more image being more "up front". What I lost was detail- notes were blunted, depth and sound stage- everything was mashed together and flat. Very hifi. For me way too much was lost. I am back to straight in. Much better!

I will try soon a $35k USD pre and see if there are any improvements.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I'm not sure- Lots of people have strong opinions on "natural" products to use as bases/ stands. You have to try.

+1

My future Io Eclipse boxes will sit on a massively heavy rack composed of slabs of solid stainless-steel.

Different support materials supporting different components sound different to different ears. There are no rules of general applicability. One has to experiment for oneself with one's own equipment, and solve the equation to satisfy one's own subjective sonic preferences.

 

[OGH]

I saw a post from Albert Porter from 2002 at Audiogon. He investigated the Io extensively. He preferred a thick granite shelf under it, rather than a Neuman shelf, or a butcher block ('sucked the life out of the music'). The granite shelf rested on a rigid aluminium stand, spiked to the slate floor. He had a bit of 'soft shoe' decoupling (whatever that is) between the stand and the shelf. On the top of the shelf he had 12 small ISO bearings, with the Io on top of these!

It sounds almost as complex as the VPI HW19 setup I had, with ceramic cones, sand box, half-inflated tyres, and whatnot. And this actually made a difference with the HW19. Although we never fully became friends. With the Io, I don't hear so much difference, testing stock feet versus Cerapucs, but a little improvement with the latter, yes. I don't have enough shelf height to test higher feet. Just the thought of moving my stone rack and trying something new makes me sigh. Not likely.

Kcin - thanks for pictures - do I see holes (for ventilation?) in the side panels of the Io?

Also, your preamp experiments are very interesting. My Einstein is now back from service, and after some break-in, I think it sounds a bit better than before (worn and low cost caps replaced by new mid cost). However, I do appreciate the sound of the Io direct to the amps, especially after getting used to it, as I had to, when the preamp was away. At first it sounded anemic, I was missing the preamp. There is an 'added value' factor with the preamp in the chain, that I like. But is it, in fact, an improvement? In some ways, no. I think it is (slightly) detrimental, regarding purity. It also has a bit of s-state 'muscle' that I associate with its s-state power supplies. But in other ways, yes. The music has more body, bloom, timbre, maybe mainly due not to the preamp itself, but that the stronger amplification makes the system better able to play with the room, the music fills my room better, with less need to turn up the volume control. So this may be very system- and room-dependent. Plusses and minuses. I am glad to have the choice, since for many years, I thought I would not need a preamp, with my volume version of the Io.

In my case (to my ears), at least - preamp vs direct to amps - this is not easy to decide by quick A / B listening. I have to listen for longer periods.

Audioquest4life - are you happy with the Jubilee preamp? Plusses and minuses, using it with the Io? I know you chose it before the Einstein preamp. I changed to NOS tubes in the Einstein, and found that this does make an improvement (although it doesn't solve all problems). Especially a CBS Hytron, if I remember correctly. Note that, the service shop was quite surprised to see some low cost caps in my preamp - which was upgraded.

 

[Ron Resnick]

FWIW I recently tried a 21KUSD preamp in front of the Io. What I gained was some dynamics in the bottom, maybe a touch more image being more "up front". What I lost was detail- notes were blunted, depth and sound stage- everything was mashed together and flat. Very hifi. For me way too much was lost. I am back to straight in. Much better!

I will try soon a $35k USD pre and see if there are any improvements.

Purely out of curiosity have you ever tried the Io into the VTL TL-7.5 Series 3 line stage?

 

[Kcin]

Purely out of curiosity have you ever tried the Io into the VTL TL-7.5 Series 3 line stage?

I have not Ron, but I do like that machine as I am very familiar with it- superb dynamics effortless. Great detail- all back from non Mk III version prior.

Here's my opinion for what its worth. You have to be very careful with straight in to the Io to match and interface with the ancillary components to get the kind of drive and room coupling and overall gain in the system. This gain and coupling is not linear- it happens at different frequencies- this was especially clear to me with this latest line stage experiment I performed. The line stage was bottom up "centric" and could really fool you if you are not a careful listener- into thinking it was "better" . I only heard this piece in digital only systems- quite substantial ones at that. I could see that someone with a digital only system and NAS etc. could find this piece exhilarating. It destroyed the Io's finesse categorically.

While others may not believe in the approach- I work within my boundaries- most systems can't do it all. I have optimized my ability to throw a soundstage, provide limitless depth when its there on the recording and filigree fine nuances while never being harsh. Many people have different priorities and may find mine illusions of the recording process and not important or misguided - thats ok. That's why there are SETs, idlers, DD, PP, OTL stats and boxes etc. We all come away with strong opinions on what works at this point in our audio lives.

I have not found an outboard preamp yet that I can reasonably afford to add to what I have created without degrading what the system does well. I am stepping up to the 35K mark soon but I am afraid that might be my reasonable limit and as we all know more dollars don't necessarily give you more -- all the time. FWIW I reeely like the Tenor line stage/phono combo-- that may be in my future sometime as it left a indelible impression.

More to come on these experiments. The next contender is considered universally top shelf.

 

[Kcin]

I saw a post from Albert Porter from 2002 at Audiogon. He investigated the Io extensively. He preferred a thick granite shelf under it, rather than a Neuman shelf, or a butcher block ('sucked the life out of the music'). The granite shelf rested on a rigid aluminium stand, spiked to the slate floor. He had a bit of 'soft shoe' decoupling (whatever that is) between the stand and the shelf. On the top of the shelf he had 12 small ISO bearings, with the Io on top of these!

It sounds almost as complex as the VPI HW19 setup I had, with ceramic cones, sand box, half-inflated tyres, and whatnot. And this actually made a difference with the HW19. Although we never fully became friends. With the Io, I don't hear so much difference, testing stock feet versus Cerapucs, but a little improvement with the latter, yes. I don't have enough shelf height to test higher feet. Just the thought of moving my stone rack and trying something new makes me sigh. Not likely.

Kcin - thanks for pictures - do I see holes (for ventilation?) in the side panels of the Io?

Also, your preamp experiments are very interesting. My Einstein is now back from service, and after some break-in, I think it sounds a bit better than before (worn and low cost caps replaced by new mid cost). However, I do appreciate the sound of the Io direct to the amps, especially after getting used to it, as I had to, when the preamp was away. At first it sounded anemic, I was missing the preamp. There is an 'added value' factor with the preamp in the chain, that I like. But is it, in fact, an improvement? In some ways, no. I think it is (slightly) detrimental, regarding purity. It also has a bit of s-state 'muscle' that I associate with its s-state power supplies. But in other ways, yes. The music has more body, bloom, timbre, maybe mainly due not to the preamp itself, but that the stronger amplification makes the system better able to play with the room, the music fills my room better, with less need to turn up the volume control. So this may be very system- and room-dependent. Plusses and minuses. I am glad to have the choice, since for many years, I thought I would not need a preamp, with my volume version of the Io.

In my case (to my ears), at least - preamp vs direct to amps - this is not easy to decide by quick A / B listening. I have to listen for longer periods.

Audioquest4life - are you happy with the Jubilee preamp? Plusses and minuses, using it with the Io? I know you chose it before the Einstein preamp. I changed to NOS tubes in the Einstein, and found that this does make an improvement (although it doesn't solve all problems). Especially a CBS Hytron, if I remember correctly. Note that, the service shop was quite surprised to see some low cost caps in my preamp - which was upgraded.

Hi OGH,
No holes in the Io, just stock. I think you and I are saying the same thing about the Io + linestage- I just have not found one that does it " all " yet.

 

[thekong]

Hi Kcin, I wonder whether you have tried the Aesthetix Callisto line stage? I am using the Io and Callisto Eclipse, both with two power supplies. While I can’t say the pairing better the Io alone in every category, I prefer it overall! Certainly the dynamic and authority have improved. Something interesting is that I used to use all tube power amps, with that I found the Io + Callisto a little bit too warm sounding to my preference. Now that I have switched to SS power amps, the tonal balance suits me better!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have not Ron, but I do like that machine as I am very familiar with it- superb dynamics effortless. Great detail- all back from non Mk III version prior.

Here's my opinion for what its worth. You have to be very careful with straight in to the Io to match and interface with the ancillary components to get the kind of drive and room coupling and overall gain in the system. This gain and coupling is not linear- it happens at different frequencies- this was especially clear to me with this latest line stage experiment I performed. The line stage was bottom up "centric" and could really fool you if you are not a careful listener- into thinking it was "better" . I only heard this piece in digital only systems- quite substantial ones at that. I could see that someone with a digital only system and NAS etc. could find this piece exhilarating. It destroyed the Io's finesse categorically.

While others may not believe in the approach- I work within my boundaries- most systems can't do it all. I have optimized my ability to throw a soundstage, provide limitless depth when its there on the recording and filigree fine nuances while never being harsh. Many people have different priorities and may find mine illusions of the recording process and not important or misguided - thats ok. That's why there are SETs, idlers, DD, PP, OTL stats and boxes etc. We all come away with strong opinions on what works at this point in our audio lives.

I have not found an outboard preamp yet that I can reasonably afford to add to what I have created without degrading what the system does well. I am stepping up to the 35K mark soon but I am afraid that might be my reasonable limit and as we all know more dollars don't necessarily give you more -- all the time. FWIW I reeely like the Tenor line stage/phono combo-- that may be in my future sometime as it left a indelible impression.

More to come on these experiments. The next contender is considered universally top shelf.

Thank you for this very detailed reply.

For the 18 years I had my first Io I ran it directly into the amplifiers. Now, however, with a 50 foot long run to the amplifiers, even Jim White agrees that it would be very helpful to have a solid-state output stage in the line stage to drive that length of cables.

 

[audioquest4life]

I'm not sure- Lots of people have strong opinions on "natural" products to use as bases/ stands. You have to try. HRS uses granite for its bases and it had profound positive affect for my Io that used to sit on a Finite Elemente maple wood rack alone- you can see my implementation in the pic. On its own without HRS Elastomers/science I would say granite is a foul sounding material for a base... not much above a glass shelf.

There are hi tech options as well. Most very expensive. Here it is good to have a dealer let you try before you buy.

Many in our audio group have an affinity for pure gabon ebony set up as blocking under audio components and swear by tuning the spacing and thickness. It is becoming difficult to find. I have some but not yet tried it.

FWIW I recently tried a 21KUSD preamp in front of the Io. What I gained was some dynamics in the bottom, maybe a touch more image being more "up front". What I lost was detail- notes were blunted, depth and sound stage- everything was mashed together and flat. Very hifi. For me way too much was lost. I am back to straight in. Much better!

I will try soon a $35k USD pre and see if there are any improvements.

The next tier in price range that you are looking at will bring you to the Octave Jubilee reference preamp. I have owned it since 2011 and have the Io plugged into and it sounds fantastic. I feel the advantage of the high/low gain switch and volume control exhibit those traits you seek in musical reproduction.

 

[jim94025]

Three questions in regards to the IO power supply:
What el34 types are you using and what differences have you heard with different types? For example, I am using GL KT66's and love the extra bass support and grunt they provide compared to a pair of SED el34's. Maybe slightly less focused, but bigger soundstage.
What 12Ax7's are you using for the power regulators and what differences , if any , have you heard using different types?
Does anyone leave the covers off their PS or heads units? More dust or airborn vibration issues maybe, but any positives?

 

[audioquest4life]

Three questions in regards to the IO power supply:
What el34 types are you using and what differences have you heard with different types? For example, I am using GL KT66's and love the extra bass support and grunt they provide compared to a pair of SED el34's. Maybe slightly less focused, but bigger soundstage.
What 12Ax7's are you using for the power regulators and what differences , if any , have you heard using different types?
Does anyone leave the covers off their PS or heads units? More dust or airborn vibration issues maybe, but any positives?

1. Using stock tubes for the EL34 position. Had previously used EH EL34s and Mullard 12AX7 in the power supplies, but don’t recall a substantial betterment in sound qualities. That was years ago. The new tubes from Aesthetix are all from JJ. Others say they have had great experiences swapping the EL34s. So far, I don’t feel inclined to swap those tubes again as I love the sound as is. I have been down that rabbit hole before, and just don’t think it’s worth my time and effort right now because the sound is glorious.

2. I leave the covers on all audio equipment for dust mitigation and enhanced safety from myself in case I do something dumb when playing the equipment when I have had too much to drink

 

[ScottB]

Three questions in regards to the IO power supply:
What el34 types are you using and what differences have you heard with different types? For example, I am using GL KT66's and love the extra bass support and grunt they provide compared to a pair of SED el34's. Maybe slightly less focused, but bigger soundstage.
What 12Ax7's are you using for the power regulators and what differences , if any , have you heard using different types?
Does anyone leave the covers off their PS or heads units? More dust or airborn vibration issues maybe, but any positives?

First and foremost, I would not start tube swapping in the power supply but rather in the head unit first. And once you do get to the power supply, start with the two power tubes, not the 12ax7’s as they make a difference but it’s a second order effect compared to the rest.

Here’s a laundry list of the power tubes I have tried: Tungsol KT66 reissue, Genalex KT66 gray glass, Electro-Harmonix EL34, JJ EL34, Psavane EL34, Svetlana EL34, Mullard XF2, Siemens RTF EL34 and finally the KT77 Gold Lion reissue. My favorites of the bunch are the Mullards followed by the Gold lions.

Back to the 12ax7’s. I happily used Sovtek’s for years when I figured out I had an extra half dozen of Tele’s laying around. For giggles I swapped them in and liked it enough they have never left. Then again I use tele’s for the 12ax7’s and 6922’s in the head unit so it makes at least some sense from a voicing perspective.

As for the lids, I run mine topless.

 

[jim94025]

First and foremost, I would not start tube swapping in the power supply but rather in the head unit first. And once you do get to the power supply, start with the two power tubes, not the 12ax7’s as they make a difference but it’s a second order effect compared to the rest.

Here’s a laundry list of the power tubes I have tried: Tungsol KT66 reissue, Genalex KT66 gray glass, Electro-Harmonix EL34, JJ EL34, Psavane EL34, Svetlana EL34, Mullard XF2, Siemens RTF EL34 and finally the KT77 Gold Lion reissue. My favorites of the bunch are the Mullards followed by the Gold lions.

Back to the 12ax7’s. I happily used Sovtek’s for years when I figured out I had an extra half dozen of Tele’s laying around. For giggles I swapped them in and liked it enough they have never left. Then again I use tele’s for the 12ax7’s and 6922’s in the head unit so it makes at least some sense from a voicing perspective.

As for the lids, I run mine topless.

As for the power tubes, how would you compare the Mullard XF2's to the GL KT77's?

 

[ScottB]

As for the power tubes, how would you compare the Mullard XF2's to the GL KT77's?

The Mullards are warmer with extra body and the KT77's are a very linear tube. My preference is dependent on what cartridge I'm using: Mullards with the Lyra or ZYX and the KT77's with the Benz. I use the Power tubes as the final tuning point when I make changes elsewhere.