Alsyvox planars...prepare to sell your Magico's, YG's, Wilson's, Cessaro's. Maggie's, and all others!!

[Tango]

One thing about the Alsyvox's is where they come up with their suggested retail prices is anybody's guess! Of course, we can say that about just about everything in this hobby these days, IMHO.
A good friend ( and not an a'phile) asked me just yesterday how the suggested retail price of some of the cartridges that I was discussing with her had been arrived at...my answer...whatever happened to pop into the reps's head, would be my guess.

I am into people making money for good living. But the pricing strategy for some audio products is just wrong not making as good living as potentially could for the product manufacturers. This Alsyvox is a very interesting speaker but the hike in price once moved from Italy to Spain is turning off potential buyers. A new kid on the block with low volume product that can hold its own might want to try an expensive but approachable pricing and sell direct like Pnoe and Thomas Mayer, imo.

Kind regatds,
Tang

 

[bonzo75]

I think giving an inflated price through the dealer network and showing high prices is important at Munich and such shows. That pricing is part of their marketing. People look at the end retail tag and decide which is good or bad. If not, they look at the looks. Audio forums and people who OCD over sonics and discuss price to value etc is an extremely small percent of the market. At least this is what a few manufacturers and dealers have told me. Irrespective of whether they are right or wrong, if they believe this that's how they will price it. The kind of people who buy such products wouldn't quibble over price anyway.

Personally I think all horns are overpriced even where I like their sonics, given they have weak distribution and resale. Brands like Wilson, focal, Martin Logans, the well marketed ones, are more fair... This is not to do with sonics but the fact that they are proper companies with good distribution, service, resale

 

[DaveyF]

I think giving an inflated price through the dealer network and showing high prices is important at Munich and such shows. That pricing is part of their marketing. People look at the end retail tag and decide which is good or bad. If not, they look at the looks. Audio forums and people who OCD over sonics and discuss price to value etc is an extremely small percent of the market. At least this is what a few manufacturers and dealers have told me. Irrespective of whether they are right or wrong, if they believe this that's how they will price it. The kind of people who buy such products wouldn't quibble over price anyway.

Personally I think all horns are overpriced even where I like their sonics, given they have weak distribution and resale. Brands like Wilson, focal, Martin Logans, the well marketed ones, are more fair... This is not to do with sonics but the fact that they are proper companies with good distribution, service, resale

If you are trying to market to an audience that only buys based on price, and not based on performance, I would say you are 100% correct.
OTOH, how many small companies have made the simple marketing mistake of pricing too high for the anticipated audience, and then found
themselves chasing a downward spiral to bankruptcy? IMO, throwing a ridiculously over-inflated price at a product- and hoping to rope in the one in a thousand ( which BTW, is how I think a lot of the pricing strategy is at the present time in this hobby) is a foolhardy and ultimately self defeating proposition. Again, IMHO.

 

[bonzo75]

I think a fair strategy given that hifi is declining in volumes. So might as well cater to those few really rich guys left in the hobby who buy with a phone call without a wink.

And for the others, there are obviously discounts

 

[Al M.]

I think a fair strategy given that hifi is declining in volumes. So might as well cater to those few really rich guys left in the hobby who buy with a phone call without a wink.

And for the others, there are obviously discounts

Discounts don't make enough of a difference to 'the others' like me (even though I got a few, those didn't really factor into my purchase decision). I only have brands with excellent price/value ratio in my system. For the other brands, their loss. But perhaps they don't need the kind of people like me as customers anyway. Until they eventually go bankrupt that is.

 

[spiritofmusic]

From what I gather, when they were called Leonardo and priced under €50k, they had a limited/zero distribution, certainly nothing in the UK, had a handful of show reports, no formal reviews, a website w no English, minimal visibility, and went dark.

To reappear as Alsyvox. I hope they have better luck second time around. But with a near 100% mark up in prices...

 

[microstrip]

(...) Personally I think all horns are overpriced even where I like their sonics, given they have weak distribution and resale. Brands like Wilson, focal, Martin Logans, the well marketed ones, are more fair... This is not to do with sonics but the fact that they are proper companies with good distribution, service, resale

Do you consider Avantgarde has a weak distribution? BTW, what his your opinion on the Trio's and Duo's?

 

[microstrip]

(...) I only have brands with excellent price/value ratio in my system. (...)

I think almost all of us say the same about our systems, surely after we deconvolute the law of diminishing returns on our systems. But this rule is an integral part of the hobby.

 

[bonzo75]

Do you consider Avantgarde has a weak distribution? BTW, what his your opinion on the Trio's and Duo's?

Nope they are a proper co, rare in the horn space.

 

[bonzo75]

I liked the trios with bass horns, never the duos. The trios are great on bass, dynamics, staging, ease. They give that density you hear in concert halls due to the bass. However, they don't have the best tone, especially as compared to other horns or panels I like.

 

[bonzo75]

I think almost all of us say the same about our systems, surely after we deconvolute the law of diminishing returns on our systems. But this rule is an integral part of the hobby.

I think what Al means is he will give up something that he considers better, but is expensive, for something that he considers has price value ratio. For example I might say crimson strad has better price value than master signature strad. Not denying latter is better. Tang might agree, but he might decide to go all out and buy the master Sig strad rather than the price value one.

Ps: never heard the crimson strad myself, just an example based on the price

 

[Al M.]

I think what Al means is he will give up something that he considers better, but is expensive, for something that he considers has price value ratio. For example I might say crimson strad has better price value than master signature strad. Not denying latter is better. Tang might agree, but he might decide to go all out and buy the master Sig strad rather than the price value one.

Ps: never heard the crimson strad myself, just an example based on the price

Very good explanation, thanks Ked.

 

[microstrip]

I think what Al means is he will give up something that he considers better, but is expensive, for something that he considers has price value ratio. For example I might say crimson strad has better price value than master signature strad. Not denying latter is better. Tang might agree, but he might decide to go all out and buy the master Sig strad rather than the price value one.

Ps: never heard the crimson strad myself, just an example based on the price

You can demonstrate any theory using very expensive analog cartridges. But you have a point - I would never buy a Crimson strad and I got a master Sig strad, because I considered it had a better price/value.

The big question is that establishing price/value in this hobby is extremely subjective and system dependent. Our systems are permanently evolving and our current decisions are bond to our past buys. As you do not have a system and are just planing , you can theorize a lot, but actual owners face a different reality.

All that matters is that owners should be happy and proud of our their wise choices. It is also the purpose of audio forums!

 

[bonzo75]

You can demonstrate any theory using very expensive analog cartridges. But you have a point - I would never buy a Crimson strad and I got a master Sig strad, because I considered it had a better price/value.

The big question is that establishing price/value in this hobby is extremely subjective and system dependent. Our systems are permanently evolving and our current decisions are bond to our past buys. As you do not have a system and are just planing , you can theorize a lot, but actual owners face a different reality.

Completely different points. That was an explanation for what Al wanted to say and what I correctly interpreted. Use carts, amps, dacs, whatever. It does not change. In my example, it seemed pretty clear that (or at least Al and I thought so), for the example, not in real life, what one considered PV vs All out. All Out where even the buyer agrees this has diminishing returns, but because it is better, I will pay the hefty premium.

Also, each person has an interpretation of what he considers is price value vs what is an all-out. For example, a guy who likes Lampi might consider Big 7 price value and GG all out. what does he buy, what he considers all-out, or what he considers PV. That is the point. Do you buy an all out or a PV. You XLF (not consdering the WAMM) was Wilson's all out effort. An AR Ref 3 is PV to AR Ref 10.

 

[microstrip]

Completely different points. That was an explanation for what Al wanted to say and what I correctly interpreted. Use carts, amps, dacs, whatever. It does not change. In my example, it seemed pretty clear that (or at least Al and I thought so), for the example, not in real life, what one considered PV vs All out. All Out where even the buyer agrees this has diminishing returns, but because it is better, I will pay the hefty premium.

Also, each person has an interpretation of what he considers is price value vs what is an all-out. For example, a guy who likes Lampi might consider Big 7 price value and GG all out. what does he buy, what he considers all-out, or what he considers PV. That is the point. Do you buy an all out or a PV. You XLF (not consdering the WAMM) was Wilson's all out effort. An AR Ref 3 is PV to AR Ref 10.

OK, it seems you agree with me - each person has an interpretation of what he considers price/ value. What is the purpose of creating rules for entities that are subjective and individual? Surely then we all have brands with excellent price/value ratio in our systems.

 

[DaveyF]

I think a fair strategy given that hifi is declining in volumes. So might as well cater to those few really rich guys left in the hobby who buy with a phone call without a wink.

And for the others, there are obviously discounts

I totally disagree with this statement! IMO, it is extremely foolhardy to elevate this strategy to the fore. Instead, a logical strategy to appeal to a much wider audience and with pricing attached to that, that would entice said audience, would make much more sense to me. Otherwise, the result is a dead industry, not if...but when!
I agree the decline in volume must be hurting, but the root cause of that is a negative appeal to the buying generation...and again IMHO, the current pricing strategy is simply adding to that negativity. YMMV

 

[dr k]

I liked the sound of the Alsyvox Botticelli at Munich this year. It was a big room as well, so a good test for dynamics. In a domestic situation the dynamics would be much bigger and bass impact I would guess. And made in SPAIN which for me is a nice thing. Makes me chuckle a bit as they are using Italian sounding names. Why can't they be proud of 'made in Spain'.

My biggest issue with them is the price, it puts them against other top contenders including Aries Cerat Symphonia'a for example, actually more expensive than the standard model AC speaker. Also positioning with Planars being open backed can be an issue.

Daniele, the designer of Alsyvox planars, is Italian. His prior company called Leonardo made planar speakers made in Italy. I think he moved to Spain because it is a better place to do business in terms of labor costs and lower overhead. The Botticelli does say Made in Spain next to the binding posts.

 

[DaveyF]

One of the aspects of cost with the Botticelli’s and the other speakers in the Alsyvox line is the expense to ship and safely pack them. I understand that they weigh several hundred pounds each, and are packed in specially made flight cases. Therefore, the consumer is going to be paying several thousand dollars just to cover this issue. I imagine set up is also going to be factor, with probably a few guys assisting in that.
One of my good a’phile friends has a new dictum, if the gear in consideration cannot be easily moved/lifted by just one person, and the shipping cannot be done by standard FedEx, he is passing on the product, no matter what the merit of the product is, period. Makes some sense to me.

 

[dr k]

I totally disagree with this statement! IMO, it is extremely foolhardy to elevate this strategy to the fore. Instead, a logical strategy to appeal to a much wider audience and with pricing attached to that, that would entice said audience, would make much more sense to me. Otherwise, the result is a dead industry, not if...but when!
I agree the decline in volume must be hurting, but the root cause of that is a negative appeal to the buying generation...and again IMHO, the current pricing strategy is simply adding to that negativity. YMMV

The most successful planar speaker company is Magnepan, who’s been around since the early 70’s. Alsyvox could follow the Magnepan business model and similar pricing structure. However, you’ll never get the quality and performance seen in Alsyvox speakers. A 20.7 built to same level as the Botticelli will cost just as much, if not more, if Magnepan decided to build such a speaker. They never will. Magnepan even refused to design a better stand for their speakers citing it would be too heavy and too costly to ship. Wtf? Have you seen those flimsy stands for the 30.7 or 20.7? The material cost going into a 20.7 is probably around $500 USD.

 

[dr k]

One of the aspects of cost with the Botticelli’s and the other speakers in the Alsyvox line is the expense to ship and safely pack them. I understand that they weigh several hundred ponds each, and are packed in specially made flight cases. Therefore, the consumer is going to be paying several thousand dollars just to cover this issue. I imagine set up is also going to be factor, with probably a few guys assisting in that.
One of my good a’phile friends has a new dictum, if the gear in consideration cannot be easily moved/lifted by just one person, and the shipping cannot be done by standard FedEx, he is passing on the product, no matter what the merit of the product is, period. Makes some sense to me.

Sage advice. That’s what I used to think until I heard the Leonardo. I may be regretting my decision. It’s like dating a super model. I may be in over my head.