Alsyvox planars...prepare to sell your Magico's, YG's, Wilson's, Cessaro's. Maggie's, and all others!!

[Tango]

If you would like to find out more details about this speaker please ping me individually and I can share some experiences from my discovery.

You would get many pings. I want to ping you on this too. It would do people good if you could give your impression on the open forum. Regarding different or diverse comments people may make, just view them as distortions, noises, rfi, hums, etc., if some of them were annoying.

Have a wonderful time with your new speakers.

Tang

 

[Pepe57]

These speakers were Made in Italy.
I heard first version about 7 Years ago in a recording studio (during a demonstration) near Treviso/Venezia, after at designer house followed by other occasions during Italian fairs (and also again at the designer house). Their original name was Leonardo.
They are true ribbon speakers.
In my opinion they need good & strong power to work well as during different listening i appreciated more when the power was there.
I remember at designer house he used them with a couple of Mark Levinson N 20.6 in a big size room and in my opinion a little more power would be appreciated.
I felt them a little "short" on bass, but in general sound IMO was good.

 

[Tango]

These speakers were Made in Italy.
I heard first version about 7 Years ago in a recording studio (during a demonstration) near Treviso/Venezia, after at designer house followed by other occasions during Italian fairs (and also again at the designer house). Their original name was Leonardo.
They are true ribbon speakers.
In my opinion they need good & strong power to work well as during different listening i appreciated more when the power was there.
I remember at designer house he used them with a couple of Mark Levinson N 20.6 in a big size room and in my opinion a little more power would be appreciated.
I felt them a little "short" on bass, but in general sound IMO was good.

Maybe they are improved 2.35 times over 7 years.

Tang

 

[gwalt]

Gentleman:

I heard the speakers @ RMAF with the Class AB Omega Audio Concepts mono integrated amplifiers rated at 100/170 WPC. I will be driving them with existing amplifers I own as in YBA Passion 600 monoblocks 300WPC 4 ohm and the CAT JL5 tube amplifier 120 WPC. I have full intentions in building my system around these speakers. They simply are the real deal.
I would prefer to share my experiences once I have had time to experiment with the speakers. I have no doubt the larger room will exceed the smaller room in several areas as these like space but I think they will work in either. The speaker designer recommends pulling them 30-40% into the room length and listening 1 ft. further from the width of the speakers front plane. 9 foot width equals a minimum of 10 ft. listening position. Will be starting parallel to the front wall and towing in 1/2 inch at a time. I have a lot to try as you can imagine and will share some thoughts once I get through the learning curve.
RMAF listening room measured 20 X 25 and the above dimensions for the speaker position and listening were very similar in my experience. Bass was outstanding on these speakers.....big band, RR reference tapes, and my own recordings. I am also told these are more efficient with better top end openness than the older Leonardos.

 

[gwalt]

PS:
I live in Nebraska. I have owned Magnepan MG3a and Tympani IVa speakers. I have owned Avantgarde Duo Mkll and Edgarhorn Titan ll horns with horn bass sub.. My memory on box speakers include Dunlavy IVa, Living Voice OBX-RW, ESP Concert Grand, Gamut RS7i. I have tried some different monitors on loan but cannot remember what they all were. My experience leads me to believe a larger speaker lends to larger soundstages and in many cases more realism. YMMV as anything with this hobby.

 

[Pepe57]

Maybe they are improved 2.35 times over 7 years.

Tang

I heard in Munich (during the MOC) 2018 at the Marriott with Omega Audio Concept (another Italian factory) the last version of these speakers.
IMO they have changed a little in 7 years, but not so much (with the new version, i think they have a little improved the medium bass) and in the MOC, for some kind of music, i think it was one of the the 5 best systems i heard there.
What i wished to say was that i had the chance to follow/listen the evolution of these speakers from the beginning during the years. I think they are good but, even for the last version in that moment, i would prefer a bass a little deeper.

 

[dr k]

So I guess I'm the other guy in the US with the Botticelli. I will be setting up these speakers in the next month or so. I have a 900 watt 4 chassis tube amp (and multiple solid state amps from 25 to 100 watts, both class A and AB). Should be enough juice .

 

[DaveyF]

So I guess I'm the other guy in the US with the Botticelli. I will be setting up these speakers in the next month or so. I have a 900 watt 4 chassis tube amp (and multiple solid state amps from 25 to 100 watts, both class A and AB). Should be enough juice .

Hopefully, the manufacturer can figure out his dealership network and get these speakers distributed into the US in a much wider manner. That way, folks can have a chance to listen to them. I certainly would like that opportunity.

 

[caesar]

Gentleman:

I heard the speakers @ RMAF with the Class AB Omega Audio Concepts mono integrated amplifiers rated at 100/170 WPC. I will be driving them with existing amplifers I own as in YBA Passion 600 monoblocks 300WPC 4 ohm and the CAT JL5 tube amplifier 120 WPC. I have full intentions in building my system around these speakers. They simply are the real deal.
I would prefer to share my experiences once I have had time to experiment with the speakers. I have no doubt the larger room will exceed the smaller room in several areas as these like space but I think they will work in either. The speaker designer recommends pulling them 30-40% into the room length and listening 1 ft. further from the width of the speakers front plane. 9 foot width equals a minimum of 10 ft. listening position. Will be starting parallel to the front wall and towing in 1/2 inch at a time. I have a lot to try as you can imagine and will share some thoughts once I get through the learning curve.
RMAF listening room measured 20 X 25 and the above dimensions for the speaker position and listening were very similar in my experience. Bass was outstanding on these speakers.....big band, RR reference tapes, and my own recordings. I am also told these are more efficient with better top end openness than the older Leonardos.

Congrats! Definitely one of the most impressive showings at RMAF.

I think the CAT amps will sound great with these. Please keep us posted!

Also, why did you give up on the Avantgardes?

 

[gwalt]

Caesar,
I never had any luck getting the Avantarde bass to integrate with the horn driver. I also thought the tweeter was a screamer. I was not a fan of their sound.
The only amplifier I ever thought did them justice was the Audiopax KT88 and or Lamm 2.1 As for horns I owned the Edgarhorn Titan for 13 years......much better integration and very fun speakers. They were driven with a Jeff Korneff 45 and a Border Patrol 300B.

 

[Zero000]

If they fail within warranty, what's the deal for you stateside chaps?

They are planars and they will fail. They pretty much all do and if not, their performance becomes compromised over time. So this aspect is super important.

How long is the warranty?

 

[DaveyF]

If they fail within warranty, what's the deal for you stateside chaps?

They are planars and they will fail. They pretty much all do and if not, their performance becomes compromised over time. So this aspect is super important.

How long is the warranty?

What makes you think all planars fail ( presumably in a short period of time?...certainly within a typical warranty period) or that their performance becomes compromised over time? I have heard Quads that are decades old still sounding superb. Same for some older Maggie’s, they are still providing a great deal of pleasure after years of use. Albeit, all speakers will fail at some point into the future, simply due to aging, but this isn’t exclusive to planars.

 

[Zero000]

What makes you think all planars fail, or that their performance becomes compromised over time? I have heard Quads that are decades old still sounding superb. Same for some older Maggie’s, they are still providing a great deal of pleasure after years of use. Albeit, all speakers will fail at some point into the future, simply due to aging, but this isn’t exclusive to planars.

About 25 years of owning nothing but Martin Logans and Apogees.

Quads are well protected, far more so than Martin Logans, but they do lose performance over time. Basically material degeneration. Loss of tension, diaphragm coating failure, ribbon adhesive failure, clamp damping material failure etc etc.

I went through about 5 sets of ML panels in 17 years.

All speakers fail eventually. Planars are far less reliable than dynamic speakers. I did a survey on Martin Logans and the failure rate is really high.

 

[DaveyF]

About 25 years of owning nothing but Martin Logans and Apogees.

Quads are well protected, far more so than Martin Logans, but they do lose performance over time. Basically material degeneration. Loss of tension, diaphragm coating failure, ribbon adhesive failure, clamp damping material failure etc etc.

I went through about 5 sets of ML panels in 17 years.

All speakers fail eventually. Planars are far less reliable than dynamic speakers. I did a survey on Martin Logans and the failure rate is really high.

Ok, could that be because Martin Logan’s dont have the build quality of something like an Alsyvox in the first place?.
I don’t think I have heard Quads that have lost their performance over time, they either work as when new, or they don’t work at all, due to some kind of failure. Diminished performance in any kind of reasonable age isn’t one of the factors with planars IME. Certainly, no more than any other type of speaker.YMMV.

 

[dr k]

About 25 years of owning nothing but Martin Logans and Apogees.

Quads are well protected, far more so than Martin Logans, but they do lose performance over time. Basically material degeneration. Loss of tension, diaphragm coating failure, ribbon adhesive failure, clamp damping material failure etc etc.

I went through about 5 sets of ML panels in 17 years.

All speakers fail eventually. Planars are far less reliable than dynamic speakers. I did a survey on Martin Logans and the failure rate is really high.

Unfortunately, ML is probably the most failure prone panel speaker out there, likely due to its curvilinear design. Acoustats and Quads are very reliable. Very old maggies (20+ years) have issues with delamination of the wires on the mylar. I haven't heard of the new maggie quasi-ribbon drivers delamination problem. Very old Apogees tend to get buzzing of the bass diaphragm. I've owned both Maggies and Apogees and never had any issues. I think we can agree old speakers (dynamic, ribbon, planar magnetic, etc) 20+ years old with daily use will run into some problems. I don't think Alsyvox speakers will have delamination problem like the old maggies with wire coil or buzzing like Apogee bass panel because the diaphragm design is different and looks very robust. The Botticelli is built like a tank. Alsyvox warranty is 5 years. The designer will make a personal visit to your home if any thing goes wrong that requires his attention.

 

[gwalt]

Here is a quote from the designer himself. Daniele, there is an individual on WHATSBESTFORUM that is saying ALL PLANARS WILL BREAK DOWN....THEY ALL DO. I responded to Daniele........Have any of your previous designs broke down ie, Leonardos and or the designs before that?
Response........Ribbons used in the mid tweeter, no registered breakdown after more than 25 years. Ribbon planar woofers, no break down after 10 years of using the current design. I do not expect any more problems than any cone speaker (even not considering the bad foam rubber cone suspensions that were breaking after less than 10 years). In more generic terms I would say anything made by mankind will eventually break.....even the pyramids......quote enquote.
FYI the designer has been forwarding the implementation of these for the past 35 years.
As DrK stated above the speakers carry a 5 year warranty with repair on-site per the manufacturer. His family, and other staff, are all involved with the manufacturer of the speakers BTW.
My goal, and I am working on it in the early stages, is to gain distributorship in the US of this first class product. With that will realize local service. It has yet to become a mainstream US product. Those of us that have heard and seen it and have come to know the designer among other research have taken the plunge from the build.....quality of sound stand point.....it stands alone of planars out there currently.
I myself know I could get the Magnepan currently serviced but do not like the quality of sound or build so moral of the story (I feel this speaker goes way beyond).........to each his own in this hobby.

 

[microstrip]

Unfortunately, ML is probably the most failure prone panel speaker out there, likely due to its curvilinear design. Acoustats and Quads are very reliable. Very old maggies (20+ years) have issues with delamination of the wires on the mylar. I haven't heard of the new maggie quasi-ribbon drivers delamination problem. Very old Apogees tend to get buzzing of the bass diaphragm. I've owned both Maggies and Apogees and never had any issues. I think we can agree old speakers (dynamic, ribbon, planar magnetic, etc) 20+ years old with daily use will run into some problems. I don't think Alsyvox speakers will have delamination problem like the old maggies with wire coil or buzzing like Apogee bass panel because the diaphragm design is different and looks very robust. The Botticelli is built like a tank. Alsyvox warranty is 5 years. The designer will make a personal visit to your home if any thing goes wrong that requires his attention.

I would like to add my .02


As far as I know the ML failures were mainly due to the increase of the resistance of the diaphragm, that decreased its efficiency along time - never saw a panel loosing tension due to being curvilinear. I think that the problem is now solved since a few years ago. The positive aspect was that replacement panels were very cheap and easy to mount - I helped doing it several times. Unfortunately the prices of spare panels increased a lot in recent years.

IMHO Quad's were not reliable - they had many faults in the HV electronics, open resistors in the step/up crossover and unless the owner was very careful with volume panel failure. The ESL63 has a chronic problem with stator glue. I agree on Maggies and Apogees problems.

A panel speaker is more complex mechanically and electrically than a classical coil speaker - and due to size and weight usually repairs need some logistic. Replacing the Soundlab diaphragms is cheap - the factory charges very little for this work and we get as new panels. However sending them is a nightmare ...

BTW, almost all brands had short periods when they had reliability problems due to changes in manufacturing. Usually they solve it fast, but the damage to the reputation stays ..

 

[Zero000]

Let's be clear there are original Apogees, Martin Logans and Quads that are original that have not been touched after 20 years and in some people's opinion have a clean bill of health.

I strongly suggest that isn't the case. They will NOT perform as new. Replacing the panels will give them a shock.

The Quad restoration market is strong. ML panel replacement is commonplace. I ran the survey linked below years ago. I think it has been manipulated since the amount of claims of over 20 years has increased in recent years. But still 35% odd have failed according to this with 10 years. That's pretty unacceptable, really, unless you are:

1) Aware that this may happen.
2) You can live with it as a reality of owning what is, let's face it, a fairly esoteric method of reproducing sound on a large scale.

My own experience is far worse than this. But I am a critical listener and won't accept even the slightest drop in performance. And I still use the bloody things, LOL

http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...lly-Lasted&s=03ce3eab121334678a1b904cfb93c391

Original Apogees often failed due mainly to deterioration of the foam used to support the bass panel perimeter, but also due foam deterioration elsewhere, foil from Kapton separation (failing adhesive), and warping etc.

All speakers are ultimately doomed, but planars are doomed more quickly than conventional speakers.

Support for planar repair is fairly essential. A 5 year warranty is good, though. And if you manage to provide a service department in the US then all credit to you.

Be aware that sales at this end of the market will be very few and far between, however.

Note I currently use planar magnetics and was very involved with producing the ones I have.

Anyone is free to disagree with me. But these are my beliefs gained from masses of practical experience.

 

[dr k]

I would like to add my .02


As far as I know the ML failures were mainly due to the increase of the resistance of the diaphragm, that decreased its efficiency along time - never saw a panel loosing tension due to being curvilinear. I think that the problem is now solved since a few years ago. The positive aspect was that replacement panels were very cheap and easy to mount - I helped doing it several times. Unfortunately the prices of spare panels increased a lot in recent years.

IMHO Quad's were not reliable - they had many faults in the HV electronics, open resistors in the step/up crossover and unless the owner was very careful with volume panel failure. The ESL63 has a chronic problem with stator glue. I agree on Maggies and Apogees problems.

A panel speaker is more complex mechanically and electrically than a classical coil speaker - and due to size and weight usually repairs need some logistic. Replacing the Soundlab diaphragms is cheap - the factory charges very little for this work and we get as new panels. However sending them is a nightmare ...

BTW, almost all brands had short periods when they had reliability problems due to changes in manufacturing. Usually they solve it fast, but the damage to the reputation stays ..

I should have made myself more clear. I thought we were talking about older generations of panel speakers, the ML CLS for example. When a CLS panel fails, it's very expensive to replace (relatively speaking). I could be wrong, but I don't recall CLS malfunctioning due to crossover or transformer failing. And I was referring to the Quad ESL 57, which I own and think are reliable given they have been around for over 60 years. There are some that are going strong after 40+ years without repairs. The problem with 57 was people over drove them with too much power. It couldn't handle anything more than about 25 watts.

 

[Zero000]

I should have made myself more clear. I thought we were talking about older generations of panel speakers, the ML CLS for example. When a CLS panel fails, it's very expensive to replace (relatively speaking). I could be wrong, but I don't recall CLS malfunctioning due to crossover or transformer failing. And I was referring to the Quad ESL 57, which I own and think are reliable given they have been around for over 60 years. There are some that are going strong after 40+ years without repairs. The problem with 57 was people over drove them with too much power. It couldn't handle anything more than about 25 watts.

I put a 600 Watt amp on a pair of ESL 57s at a group meeting and watched the clip indictors on my amp light up trying to get more volume. The protection lights were lighting up on the speakers. Nothing broke For well over an hour, maybe as much as three.

The owner was an engineer. We knew what we were doing.

Don't worry, all my planars have all seen only mediocre power for the most part.

The 40 year+ ones that are still going strong? Where is your evidence?