American Sound, "The Absolute Nothing"

[thekong]

As far as I understand there are 2 broad types of air- bearings used in turntables . The first one is what I called a half air-bearing (not sure what the technical term is), with which the vertical plane floats on air, but still has a more conventional bearing/ sleeve to hold the spindle in the horizontal plane. Turntables like the Micro, TechDas, CS Port use this type of air-bearing. The JC Verdier La Platine also works similarly, but uses magnets, instead of air, to float the platter.

The second type is what I called a full air-bearing, with which both the vertical and horizontal plane are float by air. Turntables with this type of air-bearing include the Versa Dynamics, Rockport, Kuzma, and Vyger etc.

The full air-bearing used in the Rockport Sirius II looks similar to this:

https://www.newwayairbearings.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/NWAB_-_October_2018_-_Design_-_T-Series_v2-1.pdf

Interestingly, the full air-bearing used in the Kuzma XL Air looks very similar to a conventional bearing:

https://www.kuzma.si/media/uploads/files/IM%20XL%20AIR%20KIT%20%20220627.pdf

 

[Argonaut]

for whatever reason, my Esoteric T1 which is a magnetic drive/rim drive idler, with a servo, become more 'human' and had greater 'flow

For my part I consider the Esoteric MagneDrive System to be a most elegant solution , If it is good enough for the Chūō Shinkansen Bullet Train … it is good enough for a spot of Mahler2 .

 

[PeterA]

Can we get David a 1 day pass to help answer these questions?

I understand exactly how the bearing works. I have assembled and disassembled both the AS 1000 and AS 2000. It is proprietary information and I am not at liberty to discuss the specifics. It’s as simple as that. If David were here, he would not discuss the details either.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Can we get David a 1 day pass to help answer these questions?

David doesn't need a pass to return. He left of his own volition.

 

[treitz3]

Unfortunately, this is true....

Tom

 

[tima]

A lightweight platter whose speed is monitored multiple thousand times per revolution is capable of high stable speed accuracy.

but does it project the feeling of musical flow and liquidity? to what degree?

Yes Mike, if that is on the record.

or is it a bit stark and bare sounding.....relatively? i had the first gen GPA Monaco turntable in my room for a year which most definitely was stark and bare sounding. digital sounding even.

No Mike.

We've heard these remarks from you before. And Fremer, in the minority, did not care for the original either. Can't speak to generation 1, never heard it. You are free to listen to my videos and judge for yourself if they sound like your digital.

for whatever reason, my Esoteric T1 which is a magnetic drive/rim drive idler, with a servo, become more 'human' and had greater 'flow' when i added the clock. it was not lacking flow without the clock, but had more with it.

From the descriptions I've read, it is quite exotic; I trust you are enjoying it. The Monaco 2.0 and 3.0 have their own clocks but they are not a $27k add-on.

my newer Wave Kinetics NVS direct drive turntable with a newer motor drive algorithm had much better flow.

Is that the one with the cogging and speed stability issues delineated by Phoenix Engineering? I can e-mail a copy of that report if anyone wants to read it. I never heard the table.

servos, feedback loops, and all things related do matter for speed control. alot. probably platter mass too.

You can read Roy Gregory's comments (here, here, and here, and ) and my own review (here) to help you understand how the Monaco's work.

 

[mtemur]

As far as I understand there are 2 broad types of air- bearings used in turntables . The first one is what I called a half air-bearing (not sure what the technical term is), with which the vertical plane floats on air, but still has a more conventional bearing/ sleeve to hold the spindle in the horizontal plane. Turntables like the Micro, TechDas, CS Port use this type of air-bearing. The JC Verdier La Platine also works similarly, but uses magnets, instead of air, to float the platter.

The second type is what I called a full air-bearing, with which both the vertical and horizontal plane are float by air. Turntables with this type of air-bearing include the Versa Dynamics, Rockport, Kuzma, and Vyger etc.

The full air-bearing used in the Rockport Sirius II looks similar to this:

https://www.newwayairbearings.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/NWAB_-_October_2018_-_Design_-_T-Series_v2-1.pdf

Interestingly, the full air-bearing used in the Kuzma XL Air looks very similar to a conventional bearing:

https://www.kuzma.si/media/uploads/files/IM%20XL%20AIR%20KIT%20%20220627.pdf

Thanks for the explanation, but I highly doubt that any turntable uses a full air bearing where the platter is in contact with nothing but an air cushion. I’m almost certain of this because I haven’t seen any concrete proof, just vague explanations from manufacturers that seem evasive. Since full air bearings are industrially available, I don’t believe it’s a patent or company secret issue, but rather a challenge of implementation. I suspect there is a sleeve bearing or something similar to prevent lateral movement caused by the belt, motor, or occasional contact with the platter while changing records. Additionally, there must be some kind of thrust bearing to maintain the air gap between the platter and plinth when placing a record, using a heavy stabilizer, dealing with changes in air pressure, or when the platter is accidentally bumped.

 

[Argonaut]

Hmmmm … If this bearing is so *revolutionary* and proprietary to the point of an NDA , one might expect that this design would have been registered under his own or company name at the USPTO ?

 

[thekong]

Thanks for the explanation, but I highly doubt that any turntable uses a full air bearing where the platter is in contact with nothing but an air cushion. I’m almost certain of this because I haven’t seen any concrete proof, just vague explanations from manufacturers that seem evasive. Since full air bearings are industrially available, I don’t believe it’s a patent or company secret issue, but rather a challenge of implementation. I suspect there is a sleeve bearing or something similar to prevent lateral movement caused by the belt, motor, or occasional contact with the platter while changing records. Additionally, there must be some kind of thrust bearing to maintain the air gap between the platter and plinth when placing a record, using a heavy stabilizer, dealing with changes in air pressure, or when the platter is accidentally bumped.

I am no engineer, so just a question. I am using about 36 psi of air pressure on my Sirius II, and the Kuzma Air actually uses 64 psi of air pressure. Would that be enough to prevent, or at least minimize, lateral movement? Thanks!

 

[mtemur]

I am no engineer, so just a question. I am using about 36 psi of air pressure on my Sirius II, and the Kuzma Air actually uses 64 psi of air pressure. Would that be enough to prevent, or at least minimize, lateral movement? Thanks!

I don’t think neither 36 nor 64 psi is enough to prevent lateral movement. It’s not just the air pressure alone, surface area has a role on this. Air cushion is like a sponge. when you increase pressure you change the softness of the sponge but never turn it into a solid like metal. Higher air pressure certainly decrease the chance of tear down of air film between bearing and platter and prevent them touching each other but there will be microscopic changes in the thickness of air film when platter is bumped or belt tension is changed.

 

[djsina2]

Thanks for the explanation, but I highly doubt that any turntable uses a full air bearing where the platter is in contact with nothing but an air cushion. I’m almost certain of this because I haven’t seen any concrete proof, just vague explanations from manufacturers that seem evasive. Since full air bearings are industrially available, I don’t believe it’s a patent or company secret issue, but rather a challenge of implementation. I suspect there is a sleeve bearing or something similar to prevent lateral movement caused by the belt, motor, or occasional contact with the platter while changing records. Additionally, there must be some kind of thrust bearing to maintain the air gap between the platter and plinth when placing a record, using a heavy stabilizer, dealing with changes in air pressure, or when the platter is accidentally bumped.

My Audio Tekne table has zero contact.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I found this doc interesting re: air-bearing design.

https://www.newwayairbearings.com/sites/default/files/new_way_application_and_design_guide_%20Rev_E_2006-01-18.pdf

...just a scroll down this page to see pics of air-bearing applications is interesting (to me at least):

Specialty Designed Solutions | ABTech Inc.

Looking for specialty manufacturing? From small assemblies to entire machines, challenging applications are ABTech's specialty.

www.abtechmfg.com

...carry on, gents.

 

[mtemur]

My Audio Tekne table has zero contact.

I can see it from the picture you shared. As far as I can tell from the picture that it has relatively low mass platter due to it’s design choice. In this case microscopic level lateral and horizontal movements of the platter is more prominent compared to other high mass platter designs. The key of air bearing is making the platter as high mas as you can. This way you can decrease the softness and sponge like character of air cushion/film.

 

[djsina2]

I can see it from the picture you shared. As far as I can tell from the picture that it has relatively low mass platter due to it’s design choice. In this case microscopic level lateral and horizontal movements of the platter is more prominent compared to other high mass platter designs. The key of air bearing is making the platter as high mas as you can. This way you can decrease the softness and sponge like character of air cushion/film.

I suppose you could call it light since it’s not a solid piece. My CSPort platter is about 40lbs. I’d say the Audio Tekne is 25lbs but I have not weighed it. Can’t comment on any microscopic movements but I can say it sounds much different than the CSPort.

 

[mtemur]

I suppose you could call it light since it’s not a solid piece. My CSPort platter is about 40lbs. I’d say the Audio Tekne is 25lbs but I have not weighed it. Can’t comment on any microscopic movements but I can say it sounds much different than the CSPort.

Maybe it’s (Audio Tekne) bearing is upside down spindle (if upside down spindle exists). But certainly the idea behind that design is increasing bearing area to 10”. This way force to keep platter in place will be much higher even if the air pressure is low.

 

[DasguteOhr]

My Audio Tekne table has zero contact.

You need three airbearings for contactless motion (two for axial stable) and one for horizontal contactless. extremely complex some modern cnc machines have it

 

[andromedaaudio]

Now this is what i call a spindle / bearing .
This is what i usually install the bearing is over 100 K euros , 1500 mm OD

On topic , you can talk all you want about bearings / speed regulation but its the outcome that counts and i have not heard better then my Studer B62 / Telefunken M15A regarding natural rhythm/ timing .
I dont know what they use but i doubt its that sophisticated / accurate as what they use in modern TT s.
I think the magic lays elsewhere in the TT design

 

[djsina2]

Maybe it’s (Audio Tekne) bearing is upside down spindle (if upside down spindle exists). But certainly the idea behind that design is increasing bearing area to 10”. This way force to keep platter in place will be much higher even if the air pressure is low.

Yes I think that must be the key. I have not seen another design with such a wide area. But to be clear there are no moving parts or metal parts with the Audio Tekne. It’s an extremely simplistic turntable. The other great part about the design is you can cut the power and there is no risk of any damage from losing air, which is much different than CSPort and TechDAS.

 

[djsina2]

You need three airbearings for contactless motion (two for axial stable) and one for horizontal contactless. extremely complex some modern cnc machines have it

What are the three bearings in the Audio Tekne design?

 

[SOS]

@djsina2 My CSPort platter is about 40lbs.

I'm assuming you have the CSPORT TAT2M2. My TAT1M2 platter is just over 60 pounds. Curious if you have ever heard both side by side?