Analog Magik

Kcin

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Thanks for the follow-up. Maybe if I see results from a cartridge that does correlate well with the AM tests it will make more sense. I would like to see some type of roll up, summary or conclusion from each test along with the raw data

I am getting closer to getting the Ortofon Cartridge analyzer running. Many problems associated with old age on this unit. Its ironic because I know my dealer friend who bought this originally rarely used it... use or loose it as they say. All that aside, when you got your cartridge analyzed with that machine some 40 or so years ago you got a summary
print out like attached. Very cool.


IMG_0623.jpg IMG_0624.jpg
 

tima

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I am getting closer to getting the Ortofon Cartridge analyzer running. Many problems associated with old age on this unit. Its ironic because I know my dealer friend who bought this originally rarely used it... use or loose it as they say. All that aside, when you got your cartridge analyzed with that machine some 40 or so years ago you got a summary
print out like attached. Very cool.


View attachment 50002 View attachment 50003

That's really neat, covering cartridges and tonearms. You could compare Ortofon results with AnalogMagik results. Does it use test tracks with output fed into the custom computer?
 

Kcin

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That's really neat, covering cartridges and tonearms. You could compare Ortofon results with AnalogMagik results. Does it use test tracks with output fed into the custom computer?

Yes exactly, it has a set of test records and you attach your turntable to the analyzer and run the sequence. See post #70 above.
 

microstrip

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I am getting closer to getting the Ortofon Cartridge analyzer running. Many problems associated with old age on this unit. Its ironic because I know my dealer friend who bought this originally rarely used it... use or loose it as they say. All that aside, when you got your cartridge analyzed with that machine some 40 or so years ago you got a summary
print out like attached. Very cool.


View attachment 50002 View attachment 50003

I would also check the condition of the test LP - can you currently get spare LPs for the Ortofon Cartridge analyzer?

Perhaps people want to see how Ortofon checks their cartridges - https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/technology/the-measurement-test-chain
 

Kcin

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Mar 27, 2016
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I would also check the condition of the test LP - can you currently get spare LPs for the Ortofon Cartridge analyzer?

Perhaps people want to see how Ortofon checks their cartridges - https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/technology/the-measurement-test-chain

No, unfortunately, there is no support for the TC-3000 analyzer. I wrote Ortofon looking for prints but none to be had as the engineers and folks associated with this device are long gone and files evidently purged. The test records in my kit are pristine.

Its funny because the unit is full of Motorola 6800 series Micro processors- this and the Intel 8086 were the basis for my early education in these devices.
 

leftside

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Jan 22, 2018
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I've been using AM for the first time this weekend. I'm pleased with the results. Azimuth is the best feature.

I just have the supplied VPI JWM alignment jig, so this weekend was more of a trial run/learning experience, but I have noticed improvements. Everything just seems a little more accurate and soundstage increased.

A Mint Best Tractor should be arriving this week, and I'll use AM again after using that. I'll report my findings with a few screen shots and perhaps some videos of operation. Here's a couple of screen shots of the azimuth screen during my first round of using the software. For the second round I had the crosstalk up to 28.5 db. Channel separation of my cart is meant to be 35 db though, so I thought this should be higher, but the AM web site says they rarely see a cart over 30 db.

I used to have a Fozgometer, and that did a good job, but it's easier with AM. AM is also more precise.

Turntable: VPI Prime Signature with dual pivot (the dual pivot makes it much easier to set azimuth)
Cart: Benz Micro LP-S
Tonearm: JMW-10-3DR
Phono stage/preamp: McIntosh C500T

3. After Left.JPG
4. After Right.JPG
 
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leftside

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Jan 22, 2018
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This is what I posted over on the VPI forum:

------------------------------------

I received the software the week before last and had it up and running last weekend. I set the cart up initially with the supplied VPI jig and set the azimuth by hand/eye. This was my "learning weekend" with the software, and the measured results after various adjustments already showed quite a difference - especially the azimuth. For example, by "hand/eye" adjustments the azimuth measurements were around 26 db on the left and 34 db on the right and after using the software I had them nicely balanced around 28.5 db.

This weekend I also tried out the Mint Best Protractor. Now I had to rely upon my patience and not so steady hands. Still, I think I saw the stylus needed a very slight adjustment and I then ran Analog Magik again. This time I managed to get the azimuth slightly higher to around 28.75 for each channel. The biggest difference was the measured results seemed to be more consistent whilst the tracks were being played. Before the cart adjustment with the Mint, the measured results seemed to fluctuate more whilst the test tracks were being played.

I'll include my test results here. I have no idea if these are "good" or "bad" results for my setup with the VPI Prime Signature and Benz Micro LPS. For example, the published spec of my cart is 35 db for channel separation, but I'm only getting 28.75, but the AM site says they rarely see measurements over 30 db.

The only reading that seems a little whacky is the VTA, but with my first usage of AM the readings were around 12% (which is very high/poor).

I'm really pleased with the software. So, how does the vinyl sound now? More precise I'd say. More detailed and accurate - everything feels better balanced with better imaging. How do I know it's not just my imagination? My expensive DAC now sounds worse :)

1a. Speed 1 fluctuation.JPG 1b. Speed 2 fluctuation.JPG 3. Azimuth Left.JPG 4. Azimuth Right.JPG 5. Antiskate.JPG 6. VTA.JPG 7. VTF High Freq.JPG 8. VTF Low Freq.JPG
 

Walnut Horns

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May 11, 2015
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I plan on buying an inexpensive laptop for the AnalogMagik software on Black Friday. I have been looking at the Lenovo Ideapad 130s, which is on sale for $99. Does anyone know what the minimum system requirements are? Thanks!
 

bazelio

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Sep 26, 2016
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This is what I posted over on the VPI forum:

------------------------------------

I received the software the week before last and had it up and running last weekend. I set the cart up initially with the supplied VPI jig and set the azimuth by hand/eye. This was my "learning weekend" with the software, and the measured results after various adjustments already showed quite a difference - especially the azimuth. For example, by "hand/eye" adjustments the azimuth measurements were around 26 db on the left and 34 db on the right and after using the software I had them nicely balanced around 28.5 db.

This weekend I also tried out the Mint Best Protractor. Now I had to rely upon my patience and not so steady hands. Still, I think I saw the stylus needed a very slight adjustment and I then ran Analog Magik again. This time I managed to get the azimuth slightly higher to around 28.75 for each channel. The biggest difference was the measured results seemed to be more consistent whilst the tracks were being played. Before the cart adjustment with the Mint, the measured results seemed to fluctuate more whilst the test tracks were being played.

I'll include my test results here. I have no idea if these are "good" or "bad" results for my setup with the VPI Prime Signature and Benz Micro LPS. For example, the published spec of my cart is 35 db for channel separation, but I'm only getting 28.75, but the AM site says they rarely see measurements over 30 db.

The only reading that seems a little whacky is the VTA, but with my first usage of AM the readings were around 12% (which is very high/poor).

I'm really pleased with the software. So, how does the vinyl sound now? More precise I'd say. More detailed and accurate - everything feels better balanced with better imaging. How do I know it's not just my imagination? My expensive DAC now sounds worse :)

View attachment 57961 View attachment 57962 View attachment 57963 View attachment 57964 View attachment 57965 View attachment 57966 View attachment 57967 View attachment 57968

A follow-up question. I noticed your IMD measurements for left and right were imbalanced. Were you ever able to achieve similar IMD readings for left vs right with zenith adjustments?

Just curious because I think the IMD measuring capability is the primary advantage of Analog Magik over Adjust+. I.e. Adjust+ just assumes you can nail zenith visually with a protractor. I find that to be somewhat difficult. I also find making Zenith adjustments to be difficult in terms of being able to maintain overhang while twisting the cart in the head shell.
 

leftside

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Jan 22, 2018
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A follow-up question. I noticed your IMD measurements for left and right were imbalanced. Were you ever able to achieve similar IMD readings for left vs right with zenith adjustments?

Just curious because I think the IMD measuring capability is the primary advantage of Analog Magik over Adjust+. I.e. Adjust+ just assumes you can nail zenith visually with a protractor. I find that to be somewhat difficult. I also find making Zenith adjustments to be difficult in terms of being able to maintain overhang while twisting the cart in the head shell.
I don't really give it too much thought as things improved after I slightly adjusted the zenith and then measured with AM (which showed improved measurements after the slight adjustment). All other measurements are very good and my Benz cart/sytlus is very difficult to adjust as it's tricky to see the cantilever when using the Mint (or any other type of protractor).

One day I might try again and slightly adjust the zenith, but I'm a little afraid to "break" the current setup as everything sounds so good right now.

I'll just add that making minute zenith changes seems to effect the sound quite a lot (both by ear and by AM measurement). The other guys on the VPI forum tend to agree, and we're surprised it doesn't seem to get mentioned more often. Maybe because it difficult to 1) set and 2) measure (unless you have something like AM).
 

Vienna

VIP/Donor
Hi leftside.

i am watching your posts with AM and I would advise you to use it as a reference only (it’s good for reference only).
I am using it for almost two years now. Since I had got it straight from Richard I had ordered it with two sets of vinyls (two for 33.33 and two for 45 rpm).

running the same cartridge with the same settings,each of the 33.33 and 45 rpm test vinyls will give me different results as you will see in the attached photos 6FB3A645-0B65-4E81-B9A2-500A48A75521.jpeg
(This picture made a while ago show a very high channel separation with the first test vinyl )

4A31E4F5-A21A-49A3-8EC2-60CBBD2FC596.jpeg
in the above photo the same cartridge with the same settings gives a lower channel separation value.

this is happening with all the measurements, you see the software is good but the vinyls suffer as in real life with all pressings.

the VTA measurements I am getting with the test vinyl which is giving me high channel separation is 0.65 for both channels, and the other test vinyl 1.45
 
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Marcus

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....after various adjustments already showed quite a difference - especially the azimuth. For example, by "hand/eye" adjustments the azimuth measurements were around 26 db on the left and 34 db on the right and after using the software I had them nicely balanced around 28.5 db.

I'll include my test results here. I have no idea if these are "good" or "bad" results for my setup with the VPI Prime Signature and Benz Micro LPS. For example, the published spec of my cart is 35 db for channel separation, but I'm only getting 28.75, but the AM site says they rarely see measurements over 30 db.

28.75dB is really bad for the LP-S. All I have measured were between 32 and 34dB but only with Feickert Adjust +.

A friend of mine has compared AnalogMagik and dr. Feickert’s Adjust+ azimuth alignment and guess what! Results were diametrically opposite! One alignment should probably sound better (he didn’t tell me which one did) but don’t think both could be right. Btw, optically the alignment with dr.Feickert’ tool looked more right = more perpendicular to the record...

Anyone else had similar experience?
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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... I find that to be somewhat difficult. I also find making Zenith adjustments to be difficult in terms of being able to maintain overhang while twisting the cart in the head shell.

Making tiny lateral movements to a small fragile expensive phono cartridge held in place by the tension of its mounting screws while maintaining the stylus fixed on a pinhead sized spot? Of course it's difficult.

Whether you gauge results visually or electronically you move the cartridge physically with your fingers while using your eyes. Granted we all hope the stylus is straight in-line with the cantilever.

Do you align on the cantilever? What protractor do you use?
 

tony22

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A friend of mine has compared AnalogMagik and dr. Feickert’s Adjust+ azimuth alignment and guess what! Results were diametrically opposite! One alignment should probably sound better (he didn’t tell me which one did) but don’t think both could be right. Btw, optically the alignment with dr.Feickert’ tool looked more right = more perpendicular to the record...

Anyone else had similar experience?

Yes. I also have both and have seen the same sort of difference between the two. Richard (Mak) of AM had indicated to me in an email that AM will show lower channel separation numbers, but that AM is producing a better result if all aspects that are measured via AM are optimized. My Benz LP-S typically shows separation numbers on the order of 8 dB better when done on AP+. As to which one sounds better, I'll have to admit that once I slog through all of the tweaks needed to get through all the alignments in AM it does sound very nice indeed. Maybe a bit more refined and smoother than when done via AP+, but it's not likely a user would be dissatisfied after using either*. Both tools can help, especially if someone needs that sort of quantitative feedback. However, I've seen Harry Weisfeld set up carts in less than 2 minutes with nothing more than a VPI jig and a (amazingly accurate) guess at CW position for VTF that sound absolutely perfect. Some people have the gift ;); others like me feel better with a little measured help.

* Although I admit it does bother me that channel separation, which is a fairly simple ratio measurement between signal voltages off each channel, can yield these rather large differences between the two. I have not been disappointed in the listening, however.
 
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Vienna

VIP/Donor
Yes. I also have both and have seen the same sort of difference between the two. Richard (Mak) of AM had indicated to me in an email that AM will show lower channel separation numbers, but that AM is producing a better result if all aspects that are measured via AM are optimized. My Benz LP-S typically shows separation numbers on the order of 8 dB better when done on AP+. As to which one sounds better, I'll have to admit that once I slog through all of the tweaks needed to get through all the alignments in AM it does sound very nice indeed. Maybe a bit more refined and smoother than when done via AP+, but it's not likely a user would be dissatisfied after using either*. Both tools can help, especially if someone needs that sort of quantitative feedback. However, I've seen Harry Weisfeld set up carts in less than 2 minutes with nothing more than a VPI jig and a (amazingly accurate) guess at CW position for VTF that sound absolutely perfect. Some people have the gift ;); others like me feel better with a little measured help.

* Although I admit it does bother me that channel separation, which is a fairly simple ratio measurement between signal voltages off each channel, can yield these rather large differences between the two. I have not been disappointed in the listening, however.

Harry is not a good example. For him antiskating and distortion are not important Issues.Just a while ago had announce a 14” Tonearm with zero offset and no need for any antiskating !!!!
 

tony22

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Yes, Vienna, we have seen HW's comments on these matters. All I can say, my friend, is that I sat through many an album at Harry's house and at VPI House and have yet to hear any evidence of distortion artifacts disturbing my listening. :) I don't know - I expect he takes a bit more care with his home and show setups than what I've seen a couple of times at the House. These were examples of quick cart changes that were done as a sort of "on the fly" desire to hear the same album with a different cart. I was just surprised at how good the results were. I'm guessing he's not that casual with purposeful setups.
 

bazelio

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View attachment 60470
(This picture made a while ago show a very high channel separation with the first test vinyl )

View attachment 60471
in the above photo the same cartridge with the same settings gives a lower channel separation value.
1.45
It's likely that the test tracks are in different locations on the 33 vs 45 LPs. Assuming a pivot arm, a different relative location from the null point is likely to exhibit different crosstalk characteristics. Also the rotational speed difference technically should be compensated for with different anti-skate settings (which obviously nobody does). If you don't, it will affect observed crosstalk. Lastly, the LPs themselves could have small differences as you noted. Nevertheless, I'd contend that Analog Majik is doing its job.
 
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bazelio

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Yes, Vienna, we have seen HW's comments on these matters. All I can say, my friend, is that I sat through many an album at Harry's house and at VPI House and have yet to hear any evidence of distortion artifacts disturbing my listening. :)
Having once owned a VPI table, my own experience is different. It does affect the listening experience, and it's also no coincidence that without anti-skate, cantilevers end up bending over time.
 

bazelio

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28.75dB is really bad for the LP-S. All I have measured were between 32 and 34dB but only with Feickert Adjust +.

A friend of mine has compared AnalogMagik and dr. Feickert’s Adjust+ azimuth alignment and guess what! Results were diametrically opposite! One alignment should probably sound better (he didn’t tell me which one did) but don’t think both could be right. Btw, optically the alignment with dr.Feickert’ tool looked more right = more perpendicular to the record...

Anyone else had similar experience?
Feickert's measurements are likely incorrect in absolute terms. Cartridge manufacturers will tell you that separation over 30dB is exceptionally rare to see. Yet it seems with Adjust+ to be fairly common. This isn't necessarily important though, so long as Adjust+ provides repeatable measurements that enable you to converge on the point of least crosstalk accurately. I think it does.
 
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