Anyone here in the McIntosh forum, or elsewhere, own or have listened to the new McIntosh MCD12000 CD/SACD PLAYER?

[ChasFreeland]

I don't think Soulution or CH Precision digital will work in my digital setup. Those are solid state and I prefer tubes.

Maybe if I used really neutral speakers like ATC SCM50 studio monitors the differences would be obvious especially between a all Soulution setup vs my CJ preamp and MAC tube amp, for example.

Based on the top digital playback components that I've looked at and listened to I believe the McIntosh MCD12000 is best suited for a McIntosh amplifiers, in my case my MC2102 tube amp & CJ Classic tube amp type setup.

Burmester, Soulution, CH Precision, Allnic, Audio Note, Shindo, and FM Acoustics electronics all seem to work best with electronics of the same brand. In the case of Burmester ,Audio Note, Shindo, & FM Acoustics using speakers and cables of the same brand work best. Burmester ,Shindo & Audio Note offer turntables as well that are best matched with the same brand of electronics.
These are my observations over the 3 years or so and became more obvious in August of this year when I was auditioning the MCD12000 as a possible upgrade. I have favored McIntosh digital since 2006 when I purchased my first CDP: McIntosh MCD201.

While McIntosh has had reference digital players before they've not offered one as good as the MCD12000 SACD/CD player in my opinion.

Now, I may be the only one that has such a opinion regarding new high end components.
I personally don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. From my perspective I value the music over components and when the tones and synergy line up just so then I get off of the upgrade bus and focus on playing my records, tapes, CD's ECT. I have a rather large collection of physical media(LP's, tapes, CD's), and at the end of the day I want my music collection to sound the best so patience and much listening is required so that I can make the best choices for me and my setup.

I remember reading back in 2007 regarding Ken Shindo. Someone asked him which one of his amps & preamps are the best. His response(not a exact quote but gets to the point):Each one of his amps and preamp designs are the best. Each one has a certain sound and that certain sound has a price. Customers can choose their own flavor of excellence and budget within his product line.

If you do purchase the MCD12000 be sure to post some photos if you can.

Happy Listening

Thanks for your communications. You emphasize the synergy the MCD12000 enjoys with your McIntosh gear. I use Pass amps and a Pass preamp. Sound is good with those, too. My speakers are Gary Koh designed Genesis Maestros. They're now singing better than ever. This CD player is also not tiring to listen to. Usually I can only listen to CDs for a couple hours at the most, then I get bored with it. But this MCD12000 is better, I listen to a lot of SACDS/CDs these days just to hear the improvements over the way(s) these CDs/SACDs sounded with older gear, like Spectral. The sound seems more engaging, closer to live music, a spacious and luscious sound stage. Spectral player is very good, but lean compared to this player.

 

[A-Line]

Thanks for your communications. You emphasize the synergy the MCD12000 enjoys with your McIntosh gear. I use Pass amps and a Pass preamp. Sound is good with those, too. My speakers are Gary Koh designed Genesis Maestros. They're now singing better than ever. This CD player is also not tiring to listen to. Usually I can only listen to CDs for a couple hours at the most, then I get bored with it. But this MCD12000 is better, I listen to a lot of SACDS/CDs these days just to hear the improvements over the way(s) these CDs/SACDs sounded with older gear, like Spectral. The sound seems more engaging, closer to live music, a spacious and luscious sound stage. Spectral player is very good, but lean compared to this player.

One thing that I've recently noticed is that at the top end certain hifi brands is that these brands tend to perform the best within a brand.

Pass Labs may very well be a good match for the MCD12000. The last Nelson Pass amp/pre combo that I looked at was from the early 1980's with his Power Stasis stuff which was quite good for analog back then. Pass Labs does not make any CDP's as far as I know but might make a DAC or something.

Try before you buy, at least a proper audition, is necessary before all purchases, at least for me.

 

[Charles S]

I haven't done vinyl since about 1984. But I did vinyl for years before that. I think there's a certain coloration to vinyl or magnetic tape that is very pleasing to the ear that is almost impossible to achieve with digital sources like the MCD12000. It's not resolution. Digital is more resolving and even more dynamic, etc. It's a coloration that removes the sharpness and mechanical nature that my ear has always heard and tolerated regarding digital. Using the tube outputs of the MCD12000 and C-12000 going to my MC3500 to drive my XVX off the 2-ohm tap, a subtle coloration occurs that is extremely pleasing to my ears. This chain of McIntosh gear imparts a coloration to all my music that is very much like vinyl and tape I heard as a child and a young man. It's not a veil like what I hear with analog or digital equalization. It doesn't affect resolution. It's subtle and pervasive and extremely pleasing to my ears. It's always there, easy to hear, but I have to listen for it to hear it. It removes the sharpness and mechanical quality from digital play back. It really does. This vinyl quality over the past 7 months that I have had using this chain of gear has become extremely important to me and why I will never change from the units. It has nothing to with McIntosh per se. It just so happens that McIntosh has produced the sound I've been looking for all my life since I abandoned vinyl years ago. I love to listen to music. Vinyl is just way too much trouble for me and so is tape. So, I tolerated digital playback and bought the best that I could afford.

For me personally, I'll just take the sound signature that I have achieved through my XVX to the much more expensive ultra-high-end gear like the 2.1 million XVX/Subsonic/dCS stack/Gryphon Apex system explored elsewhere on WBF. However, as GaJimin has said, this system must be heard to be understood. To achieve all that an XVX is capable of, you need a thousand watts of Class A power at 2-ohms and vinyl or magnetic tape. The MC3500 is the only tube power amp I am aware of that will easily produce 350 watts continuously all day at 2-ohms and drive my XVX in my room to insane sound levels. However, in larger rooms it would be eclipsed by these solid-state super amps. An XVX is just warming up at 350 watts.



Charles

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes

 

[A-Line]

I haven't done vinyl since about 1984. But I did vinyl for years before that. I think there's a certain coloration to vinyl or magnetic tape that is very pleasing to the ear that is almost impossible to achieve with digital sources like the MCD12000. It's not resolution. Digital is more resolving and even more dynamic, etc. It's a coloration that removes the sharpness and mechanical nature that my ear has always heard and tolerated regarding digital. Using the tube outputs of the MCD12000 and C-12000 going to my MC3500 to drive my XVX off the 2-ohm tap, a subtle coloration occurs that is extremely pleasing to my ears. This chain of McIntosh gear imparts a coloration to all my music that is very much like vinyl and tape I heard as a child and a young man. It's not a veil like what I hear with analog or digital equalization. It doesn't affect resolution. It's subtle and pervasive and extremely pleasing to my ears. It's always there, easy to hear, but I have to listen for it to hear it. It removes the sharpness and mechanical quality from digital play back. It really does. This vinyl quality over the past 7 months that I have had using this chain of gear has become extremely important to me and why I will never change from the units. It has nothing to with McIntosh per se. It just so happens that McIntosh has produced the sound I've been looking for all my life since I abandoned vinyl years ago. I love to listen to music. Vinyl is just way too much trouble for me and so is tape. So, I tolerated digital playback and bought the best that I could afford.

For me personally, I'll just take the sound signature that I have achieved through my XVX to the much more expensive ultra-high-end gear like the 2.1 million XVX/Subsonic/dCS stack/Gryphon Apex system explored elsewhere on WBF. However, as GaJimin has said, this system must be heard to be understood.

Charles

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes

Thanks for your comments here Charles.
The new McIntosh MCD12000 is not just another audio reference component, it's a experience.

I suspect the same from the new MC3500 MKII tube amplifiers, as well as the other new reference products from McIntosh as of late.

Like you I grew up with McIntosh in the house. My dad had bought a new MC275, C22, MR67, Garrard 301, and Klipsch Cornwall speakers in 1965. This sounded magical to me at time during the 1960's.

Lots of great choices these days for those seeking quality hifi that will last and stand the test of time. Lots of dead ends too as a result of overthinking stuff.

McIntosh really is about music and quality musical reproduction. McIntosh has been a part of my music for most of my life. I had ReVox for amplification from 1983-2006, the rest of the time it's been all McIntosh.

 

[Charles S]

A pic or two of my MCD12000 with feet removed sitting on 4 Wilson Pedestals.

 

[ChasFreeland]

An update on my MCD12000 experience. System is basically the same: Pass mono-blocks, Pass preamp. Recently changed cables from Kubala Sosna Expression line to Cardas Clear. This is an upgrade. Smoother vocals, more articulation, a lovely, non-fatiguing sound. I put the Kubala Sosna Expression cables on the SS output and we could hear the difference. Of course, SS differs from tube but the Kubala cables offered a more forceful sound, not as smooth as the Cardas. We thought the SS with Kubala Sosna sounded more like being at a rock concert in which case the music is really 'in your face'. So that's the charm of this player, offering different sound scapes (SS and tube) for different types of music.

 

[Dream#9]

Greetings, I'm new to this forum and recently purchased my first McIntosh, the entry level integrated MA252. (For the last 30 years I've used a CJ tube pre-amp with a solid state power amp, loved the warm sound but felt it was time to purchase some 21st century gear.) I'm loving the Mac sound and now have the upgrade bug. I was thinking of getting the MCD 85 but after reading the rave reviews here about the MCD 12000, I am re-considering. I am downgrading my living space and have a modest system: a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 300 towers with KK interconnects and biwired speaker cables in a relatively small room. (I now use an older Arcam CD player with an external DAC for my CD's and streaming.)

My question: Has anyone heard the MCD 85 and/or compared it to the MCD 12000? I know they're worlds apart but would it make that much of a difference with my modest system? I love the idea of having tube outputs on the MCD 1200 but wonder –– would it be a good match with the MA252 hybrid? On the one hand, this will be my end game last CD player/DAC so I might as well go for the best. On the other, there's a considerable price difference between the two which might otherwise be spent on other gear. Any thoughts appreciated!

 

[A-Line]

Greetings, I'm new to this forum and recently purchased my first McIntosh, the entry level integrated MA252. (For the last 30 years I've used a CJ tube pre-amp with a solid state power amp, loved the warm sound but felt it was time to purchase some 21st century gear.) I'm loving the Mac sound and now have the upgrade bug. I was thinking of getting the MCD 85 but after reading the rave reviews here about the MCD 12000, I am re-considering. I am downgrading my living space and have a modest system: a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 300 towers with KK interconnects and biwired speaker cables in a relatively small room. (I now use an older Arcam CD player with an external DAC for my CD's and streaming.)

My question: Has anyone heard the MCD 85 and/or compared it to the MCD 12000? I know they're worlds apart but would it make that much of a difference with my modest system? I love the idea of having tube outputs on the MCD 1200 but wonder –– would it be a good match with the MA252 hybrid? On the one hand, this will be my end game last CD player/DAC so I might as well go for the best. On the other, there's a considerable price difference between the two which might otherwise be spent on other gear. Any thoughts appreciated!

Greetings and welcome!

The MCD85 will match the looks of the MA252 & will have the McIntosh sound also.

If you can afford the MCD12000 then buy it. The MCD85 sounds very similar regarding the specs of my previous McIntosh MCD500. I've not done as A/B comparison, MCD85 vs MCD12000, but would speculate that the MCD12000 is in every way better than the MCD85 by a lot. If you do decide to buy the MCD12000 you'll be given a choice between the standard model or the anniversary model. There's no difference except one model has 75th Anniversary nomenclature and the other doesn't. The anniversary model is $500.00/ 750€ more than the standard model. I have the standard model MCD12000. Member Charles S has the anniversary model.

I've owned and used McIntosh digital playback components since 2006. Feel free to ask any questions regarding the MCD12000 or you can send a private message instead if you prefer.

Happy Listening

 

[Charles S]

Dream #9, I would definitely go with the MCD85. The MCD12000 would be totally out of place unless you are planning a major system upgrade in the future. Go to the Mac website and look at the system consisting of the C8 tube pre, the MCD85, and the mono MC830's. This is what you essentially have. If you purchase the MCD85, I believe you will actually be happier, because if you wish you can upgrade to the system seen there, which would be the logical next step, not the MCD12000. That system seen there is a great system and will drive most loudspeakers below 40K extremely well.

All Mac cd players sound incredibly good because there as you know Mac has been making excellent cd players since the mid 1980's. Compared to other cd players, the MCD85 will perform well above its competitors, especially in the all Mac system you are proposing.

Best

Charles

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes

 

[ChasFreeland]

Dream #9, I would definitely go with the MCD85. The MCD12000 would be totally out of place unless you are planning a major system upgrade in the future. Go to the Mac website and look at the system consisting of the C8 tube pre, the MCD85, and the mono MC830's. This is what you essentially have. If you purchase the MCD85, I believe you will actually be happier, because if you wish you can upgrade to the system seen there, which would be the logical next step, not the MCD12000. That system seen there is a great system and will drive most loudspeakers below 40K extremely well.

All Mac cd players sound incredibly good because there as you know Mac has been making excellent cd players since the mid 1980's. Compared to other cd players, the MCD85 will perform well above its competitors, especially in the all Mac system you are proposing.

Best

Charles

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes

Greetings, I'm new to this forum and recently purchased my first McIntosh, the entry level integrated MA252. (For the last 30 years I've used a CJ tube pre-amp with a solid state power amp, loved the warm sound but felt it was time to purchase some 21st century gear.) I'm loving the Mac sound and now have the upgrade bug. I was thinking of getting the MCD 85 but after reading the rave reviews here about the MCD 12000, I am re-considering. I am downgrading my living space and have a modest system: a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 300 towers with KK interconnects and biwired speaker cables in a relatively small room. (I now use an older Arcam CD player with an external DAC for my CD's and streaming.)

My question: Has anyone heard the MCD 85 and/or compared it to the MCD 12000? I know they're worlds apart but would it make that much of a difference with my modest system? I love the idea of having tube outputs on the MCD 1200 but wonder –– would it be a good match with the MA252 hybrid? On the one hand, this will be my end game last CD player/DAC so I might as well go for the best. On the other, there's a considerable price difference between the two which might otherwise be spent on other gear. Any thoughts appreciated!

Hi,

I have both the CD85 and the CD12000. My CD85 is paired with the McIntosh 352 integrated amp driving Sonus Faber speakers. It was my utterly positive experience with the CD85 that prompted me to look into the CD12000. The 85 is SS so it might share some of the design principles and parts with the CD12000. The sound to my ears is full, with good tone quality, pacing, and attack on percussion. The CD12000 has a similar sound on the SS stage, taking into consideration the differences between my two systems.. But the 12000 is rather large and a bit heavy. The lighter 85 fits in very very well with my McIntosh 352 integrated and has a surprisingly good sound. Really like it with the Sonus Faber MaximaAmator speakers. A good pairing. The advantage of the CD12000 is its tube stage. This adds a wonderful dimension to the sound, giving the listener a real choice between SS and tube. Both players benefit from XLR cables. My 85 is using Kubala Sosna 'Expression' series. This is perfect for my experience. But the CD12000 uses Cardas Clear, a better sounding cable for my Cardas loom. If I were in your listening position, I would agree with Charles's post, try the 85. It decodes SACDS and CDs, of course, has good sound, not expensive, a good aesthetic and performance match with your amp.. My only caveat might be this: if CDs and SACDs are a primary or only source for you, the 12000 might be a good option. Another point: the 12000 has onboard high quality DACS and is ready for streaming. But the CD12000 would probably benefit from being paired with the 12000 pre-amp for example. I think the 85, too, is able to stream music but I am not at all sure since I have not tried it. Ask your trusted dealer. Either choice would have its own merits..

 

[A-Line]

The MCD12000 is the best one box CDP that I've ever experienced so far. It beats most multi-box players too.

If you want something better then maybe consider something like the current Linn Klimax DS server/DAC and do digital downloads straight from the record label or their authorized entity.

I don't do downloads because I want to hold my physical music media in my hand, not store it on a hard drive or "cloud".

Just my opinion.

 

[Dream#9]

Thanks to all for your helpful and informative advice. You all have impressive systems. For clarification, I'll be using CD's and streaming as my primary sources as I don't own any SACDs, and will likely be streaming via USB 60% of the time. So having a good DAC is important. Friends have advised that I may do better with a Luxman or Rotel CD/DAC at the same price point of the CD85, but I'd like to stick with the Mac design and aesthetics if i could.

According to the specs, the MCD12000 uses two professional grade audiophile ESS 9038 Pro DAC chips (one per channel) which are top of the line, while the CD 85 uses a ESS 9018 DAC chip which is an older chip that McIntosh used in their D1100 Digital Preamp DAC. Bottom line is the MCD12000 has better digital specs and USB sample rates. I don't want to fall into the numbers trap when it comes to DAC chips and specifications, but for those who may have heard/used the D1100 do you think this a significant factor? Or is the tube stage the primary reason the MCD12000 sounds so great?

Also, to complicate my decision even more, my local dealer contacted me and indicated that they may be discounting a display/open box MCD1200. (They don't carry the MCD85 so I have no way to hear/compare/contrast.) Thanks again!

 

[ChasFreeland]

Thanks to all for your helpful and informative advice. You all have impressive systems. For clarification, I'll be using CD's and streaming as my primary sources as I don't own any SACDs, and will likely be streaming via USB 60% of the time. So having a good DAC is important. Friends have advised that I may do better with a Luxman or Rotel CD/DAC at the same price point of the CD85, but I'd like to stick with the Mac design and aesthetics if i could.

According to the specs, the MCD12000 uses two professional grade audiophile ESS 9038 Pro DAC chips (one per channel) which are top of the line, while the CD 85 uses a ESS 9018 DAC chip which is an older chip that McIntosh used in their D1100 Digital Preamp DAC. Bottom line is the MCD12000 has better digital specs and USB sample rates. I don't want to fall into the numbers trap when it comes to DAC chips and specifications, but for those who may have heard/used the D1100 do you think this a significant factor? Or is the tube stage the primary reason the MCD12000 sounds so great?

Also, to complicate my decision even more, my local dealer contacted me and indicated that they may be discounting a display/open box MCD1200. (They don't carry the MCD85 so I have no way to hear/compare/contrast.) Thanks again!

Since I, too, have not yet adopted streaming as a source, I cannot comment on the DAC comparison. But the 12000 is definitely a more advanced design, with a more advanced price tag. Open box could save you some money. If the 12000 is in good condition, maybe the reduced price would make it attractive. But the 85 does go along quite well with the McIntosh integrated amps, the 252 and 352. Good for CD/SACD stereo playback. But if streaming is important to you, as you say, go with the 12000. Is the 12000 "totally out of place" in your system, as Charles suggested? This is up to you. It may have been designed to pair with the C12000 preamp---part of their 75th anniversary series--and with larger McIntosh amps. Overall, the 12000 is the better product, no doubt, but I would agree that it would benefit from a context of speakers and electronics that would allow its virtues to shine. And yes, I would be happier sticking with the Mac rather than be tempted by "cheaper and just as good" mantra. Please let us know how you decide and how it goes!

 

[Charles S]

Thanks to all for your helpful and informative advice. You all have impressive systems. For clarification, I'll be using CD's and streaming as my primary sources as I don't own any SACDs, and will likely be streaming via USB 60% of the time. So having a good DAC is important. Friends have advised that I may do better with a Luxman or Rotel CD/DAC at the same price point of the CD85, but I'd like to stick with the Mac design and aesthetics if i could.

According to the specs, the MCD12000 uses two professional grade audiophile ESS 9038 Pro DAC chips (one per channel) which are top of the line, while the CD 85 uses a ESS 9018 DAC chip which is an older chip that McIntosh used in their D1100 Digital Preamp DAC. Bottom line is the MCD12000 has better digital specs and USB sample rates. I don't want to fall into the numbers trap when it comes to DAC chips and specifications, but for those who may have heard/used the D1100 do you think this a significant factor? Or is the tube stage the primary reason the MCD12000 sounds so great?

Also, to complicate my decision even more, my local dealer contacted me and indicated that they may be discounting a display/open box MCD1200. (They don't carry the MCD85 so I have no way to hear/compare/contrast.) Thanks again!

Dream#9, I owned a D1100 for years. It's a very fine reference digital preamplifier. It was dual mono and had a quad balanced DAC with the same chip the MCD85 uses. The MCD85 has a quad balanced DAC. I don't think there is much difference in the 9018 and 9038 chips unless the entire unit is appropriate for the newer chip. It would be worthless to put a 9038 in a MCD85. The essential quality/feature/improvement that separates the MCD12000 is not the chip per se but that the 9038 allows for the use of dual DAC's, two 8 channel DAC's, i.e., eight channels per stereo channel and according to Mac, this allows for a much better sound. This arrangement is not possible with the older chips.

I think it's all about how you want to appropriate your funds. The MCD12000 is out of place in your current system. I have mine on 4 Wilson Pedestals (3.5K) and use an AQ Dragon 2-meter power cord (about 11K) and a balanced AQ Dragon IC (12K) to connect the MCD 12000 to the C-`12000, total cost about 26.5K. I consider the MCD12000 a total bargain. There's not another cd player I would replace it with. But is this what you want in your system?? I'm a speaker aficionado, always have been. I think that when allocating funds, the speaker should be preeminent, not a source.

Speaker, then 20-amp dedicated lines, passive room treatments, cables/cords/conditioners/ balanced IC's, then power amps, pre, and finally source and isolation devices, in that order are my priorities. McIntosh gets a bad name because folks buy an MCD12000 and place it in their system, for which it was never designed to be in, then are disappointed when it doesn't transform their sound. Or another brand cd player sounds better in their system.

Again, for me personally, there's not another cd player on the market that I would trade it for, but I have it working optimally in my system, and I think after 60 plus of owning Mac gear, I can get the best out of McIntosh. McIntosh really knows how to make cd players. Mac knows how to make digital sound extremely good, like analog. It's the total package that's critical.

Best and good luck,

Charles

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes