Apogee Full range

[Zero000]

Did they just make the usual 1metre measurement or did they gate the measurement to allow for the speakers height?
Keith.

They don't say where they made the measurement. No details at all IIRC.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Just forget the measurements, and listen to the damned things!

 

[Argonaut]

Can somebody look at Acoustat measurements for me? Just wondering if all good sounding speakers measure bad.

I recall an interesting post from Paul Skarpelli from when I was mulling over options.

" I was the largest Acoustat dealer in the world in 1983, and I sold them for five years. They're amazing speakers, if you're willing to put up with some of their shortcomings. First of all, you don't have "big ones." It sounds like you have the Model 3. There were at least four larger models, and they all sounded alike, except the bigger ones played louder and had more bass. Oddly enough, they are almost as loud 10' away as they are 1' away, unlike dynamic speakers.

The hum you are hearing is from the transformer in the interface on the back of the speaker. Playing the speaker will mask that hum. You could float the transformers on grommets, but if it were up to me, I would not open the interfaces.

Because the non-hybrid Acoustats were full-range with no crossovers, the range from 100 Hz to 10 kHz was very coherent, and startlingly realistic. They don't have good response above 15 kHz because of the mass of the panels, and because of the limitation of panel excursion, they can't reproduce low bass at a high level. They tend to power-compress really badly in the bass. The panels are virtually indestructable, and cannot be blown unless you really try. You need good separates to drive Acoustats, and, as a minmum, I'd say Outlaw is the lowest you can go. (Pretty good stuff.) No receivers, please. They don't work that well with a subwoofer unless the sub is employed below 60 Hz or so. The marriage of a cone sub and an electrostatic is tricky. The speakers don't play that loud, and there is a very narrow sweet spot; in fact, it is a "sweet point." If you move your head an inch either way, the image shifts.

If you listen to acoustical music, chamber music, vocals, and any audiophile recordings that don't contain big bass drum whacks, these are amazing speakers. They sound like giant headphones, because...well...that's what they are."

 

[nc42acc]

A friend gave me a pair of Calipers in need of some TLC. Are they worth the trouble?

 

[Zero000]

Heard a refurbished pair of Calipers recently and they are good. The A21 will drive them very well with a good tube preamp.

Just depends on what you get quoted. They don't perform as well as Duettas by quite a margin IMHO, but they are defo worth a re-ribbon and a re-spray in a nice auto paint. Don't spend a fortune, but spend something...

 

[Zero000]

BTW if you like them after a re-ribbon, and I think you will cos they really are good little things, get some stands that support the whole of the backside made and upgrade the x-over components.

I heard a very early refurb and a recent one come to think of it. The recent refurb and ribbon was hugely better.

 

[Argonaut]

A couple of interesting user POV articles, particularly for the intrepid amongst us considering taking on Vintage Apogee.

http://www.hifi-advice.com/reviews-Loudspeakers.html

 

[christoph]

Hi David

I would categorically call the Grands by far the worst speakers I ever owned and am EMBARASSED !!! to say that I went whole hog on that system. $100k+ for 6 channels of Krell Audio Standards, the most disgusting sounding amplifiers I ever owned, add to that the horrible sounding KRC-HR pre, $80k-$90k of MIT wiring, the sources and you're in the half million dollar territory for a sound that at best was nauseating! The Grand was truly the Frankenstein (Apogee!) MONSTER. Starting with the disgusting DAX crossover that they had cooked up, complicated software on top of undependable hardware, easy to crash and impossiblet to tweak correctly. This xover already destroyed the sound by itself but the ridiculousness of the Grand's design didn't stop there. The $hitty Krell active subs were a sad joke sonically and served as shakers under the tall ribbon panels. They also raised the main panels above the listening position, your ears are lined up with the subs instead of the panels in this speaker. I just can't believe that the same person who designed the other Apogees had a hand in the Grand Caca! Whoever said "ignorance is bliss" hadn't heard this system!

I strongly disagree with you on your verdict about the Grand. You are right, that the Grand is über-complicated and very hard to get right, but the two different Grands that I heard were both absolutely stunning

I don't think it's fair that you damn the Grand so harshly, when you couldn't bring them to sing

If one does NOT care for originality, one could ditch the complicated electronics and incorporate a very good active x-over and drive them actively. That's what one of the Grand owners did in the meantime, while he had the original electronics serviced and that sounded awfully good as well. When the electronics came back, he drove the Grand with all NAT SET (even the tweeter ribbon as well) and that sounded awesome, too.

Cheers,
Christoph

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . The sound was magical. This was a midrange to die for, creamy and thick and full and real. The Schubert winterreise sounded the best I have heard after the WE. He wasn't into classical but still took down the pic of the LP to order it. Mahler 2 is the best I have heard with the Trios. While I was listening, the loud parts of the symphony came towards me like waves, they just kept coming towards me down the room. After we finished, the other guy too described what he heard as 'waves'. Amazing we were both visualizing the same thing. The soft parts of Mahler were equally delightful, with the flute and clarinet floating up creamily to the center.

The sound wasn't perfect, sometimes the bass was too thick, and there should have been more width for better imaging. Some songs it sounded unbalanced due to excess bass. The owner was an apogeephile, not an audiophile, so didn't care for warming up the system, positioning it perfectly, expensive electronics, etc. . . .

It helped clear my mind. I just love the ribbon tone. Analysis Audio, this Apogee full range, I need to listen to a well set up Dali Megaline with subs. . . .

Thank you for this report. The waves analogy from the tall driver is very helpful and interesting!

 

[christoph]

Hi nc42acc (strange names people have here )

A friend gave me a pair of Calipers in need of some TLC. Are they worth the trouble?

I personally wouldn't order a complete refurbish for any Apogee smaller than the Duetta, because the installation of the bass panels is VERY expensive and it's about the same price on all Apogees.
I would use them as they are until the dreaded buzz comes and then decide what to do.

If I were you, I would try to trade in the calipers with one of the certified Apogee Installers for a nice Duetta, that is already overhauled...

Don't get me wrong, the Caliper is a nice speaker for it self. I owned a pair myself and liked them a lot but when the dreaded buzz on the bass panels comes creaping in, it will get VERY expensive

 

[bonzo75]

Thank you for this report. The waves analogy from the tall driver is very helpful and interesting!

It's more than a tall driver. It is a whole tall wide magnet panel, it moves so much air, boxes seem wimpy by comparison #fighting the evil forces of foo boxes

 

[christoph]

Regarding the Acoustats Kedar heard a my place, I would like to give a little more info.

It is the 2 panel model Spectra 22 (identical to the Spectra 2200 but without the wood trim on the sides) and NOT the model 1+1, and the Acoustats were driven by a hybrid Spinx Project 14 (and not with the ultra rare Project 16, the FullRange owner in Frankfurt has). Normally I drive them with a second KR Audio 30 watt per channel SET but that one was at a friends place, then.
I haven't tried the Lamms on the Acoustats in this room yet. Maybe I will try that over the christmas holidays...

The upstairs room is very unshaped and crooked but the Spectras work amazingly well in this small seemingly speaker-unfriendly room. Very ballsy and gutsy


And tbh better than in the huge living room


Cheers,
Christoph

 

[bonzo75]

It is going to be interesting to see how everyone looks at that pic of the small room and possibly dismiss it like "can't work". That room was just superb

 

[christoph]

It is going to be interesting to see how everyone looks at that pic of the small room and possibly dismiss it like "can't work". That room was just superb

When I learned one thing in the very long years with this hobby, then it's that theory and practice don't always align. And that's valid in both ways.
I didn't expect the Acoustats to work well in there either, but I had to place them somewhere and that was the only possibility.
I was very surprised myself that they sing so beautifully in that "closet".
You need to be curious and try out things and then trust your own ears. That will bring you further, not armchair theorization

 

[nc42acc]

A friend gave me a pair of Calipers in need of some TLC. Are they worth the trouble?

Any forum member who would like these PM for location to pick up for free.

 

[thekong]

Hi Christoph, very nice system you have there! Interested to know why you put the Chinese word "Love" up side down (in the smaller room)

 

[ddk]

Hi David


I strongly disagree with you on your verdict about the Grand. You are right, that the Grand is über-complicated and very hard to get right, but the two different Grands that I heard were both absolutely stunning

I don't think it's fair that you damn the Grand so harshly, when you couldn't bring them to sing

If one does NOT care for originality, one could ditch the complicated electronics and incorporate a very good active x-over and drive them actively. That's what one of the Grand owners did in the meantime, while he had the original electronics serviced and that sounded awfully good as well. When the electronics came back, he drove the Grand with all NAT SET (even the tweeter ribbon as well) and that sounded awesome, too.

Cheers,
Christoph

Hi Christoph,

I understand where you're coming from and that's fine with me. I loved and lived with the Divas for over 10 years also had plenty of experience with other panel speakers to know what I was doing with the Grand. I tried many different things for 3 years before selling that system and that's why I feel that I can categorically call them the Grand caca.

I bought my speakers factory direct, met with Leo Spiegel and everything I purchased for that system was according to the designer's instructions, including the Krell electronics which I never liked. Just the tweeter amp that came with came with the partially active Grands was a 500 watt Krell, the speaker is power hungry and is a very difficult load to drive, how one thinks that a SET could do actually drive the Grand properly is beyond me. Yes, one can get pleasant sound and that might be enough for you but that's a far cry from realistically driving those speakers and you can get a very similar level of sound spending significantly less. Even the Divas could benefit from two pairs of Lamm M2.1s. Only thing I can say Christoph is that we probably have different expectations from systems that cost that kind of money and/or are hyped as much. Then you have the basic design flaws like having subs at ear level and an early digital crossover how do you get around that? And please don't tell me to sit on a bar stool !

Here are the specs if you don't believe me, sensitivity as quoted in their materials was around 83db, meaning it was a lot less at some frequencies and nominal 3 ohm impedance, much further south depending on frequency. What kind of SET or even tube amp can realistically handle this load?

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/the_grand.htm

david

 

[Zero000]

Let's face it how good it was is largely irrelevant now.

I do agree mounting the panel directly on top of a huge sub is a bad, bad idea. And unless you are standing up... or sitting in a high chair, the high ribbon mount WILL be an issue particulary with the mid/treble.

 

[ddk]

Let's face it how good it was is largely irrelevant now.

I do agree mounting the panel directly on top of a huge sub is a bad, bad idea. And unless you are standing up... or sitting in a high chair, the high ribbon mount WILL be an issue particulary with the mid/treble.

There's also placement to consider with this configuration, what's good for the goose is bad for the gander. I.e., when you optimize room placement for the panels the subs have issues and where the subs should be in the room the panels won't work right. It's a no win situation with this speaker.

david

 

[christoph]

Hi thekong

Hi Christoph, very nice system you have there! Interested to know why you put the Chinese word "Love" up side down (in the smaller room)

Oops. Not embarrassing at all
That calligraphy belongs to my wife and she got it from a spanish female friend who studied Japanese (not Chinese) and after I made the setup for her, I thoght it would be nice to have that calligraphy in "her" room...
Thanks for the hint. I will immediately turn it around to spare me from further embarrassment