Apogee Full range

[Zero000]

I am not judging them on subjective performance. I just don't like the Grand's design.

I am not saying FR (or Grands) isn't better - it will be I am sure within the caveat that they have been attended to properly to show what they are capable of. The Hi-Fi Advice link I post for the Scintilla above - read all his thoughts across various models and x-overs etc. Very interesting.

Duetta IS the most practical design, and best all round set of compromises is all I am saying.

 

[bonzo75]

Henk did tell me I should listen to the Scintilla. He said it has a different presentation from the rest, so either you like it or you don't.

I disagree on most practical design. Lampi Big 7 and GG are THE digital sources, but I don't think Level 4 or so is their representative. It is a different design, and if I one did not want to make the jump to B7, one can choose other brand options. Same, at Duetta level, there are many choices, including non-panels. But set up a full range or Grand well, and as far as I am concerned, that's it. Only thing to investigate would be some DIY horns, to check if anyone has made a good voice of theatre cheap with great bass integration.

 

[Zero000]

Look up the definition of practical. Scintilla, FR and Grand aren't that. The rest of what you have said is true, though.

The most practical in the practical sense is the stage (of the all ribbon speakers). Smallest, easiest to drive, cheapest - but these days impossible to repair with a new bass ribbon as they don't exist i.e. Graz doesn't do them and nor does anyone else. Practical in the best set of comprises? Duetta, as I have said.

 

[bonzo75]

I consider verity Leonores to be a practical choice for Apogee Full Range

 

[Ron Resnick]

Bonzo, I am sure you sold several of us on the performance of the Apogees from the mid-bass and up. But some of us (i.e., Lloyd and me) need that kick in the chest dynamic impact. With respect to adding external subwoofers onto a system with Full Ranges what would be your reasonable cost suggestion and what would be your cost no object, state of the art suggestion?

 

[Ron Resnick]

From where does Henk source his Full Ranges for reconditioning projects?

 

[Zero000]

Ron - dump enough current into an Apogee and it will do exactly that. Quote Kedar "I'm not sure an Omega can really do that" after hearing Jim Keltner at volume at my place. Neither can the Neolith. IMHO that is.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron - dump enough current into an Apogee and it will do exactly that. Quote Kedar "I'm not sure an Omega can really do that" after hearing Jim Keltner at volume at my place. Neither can the Neolith. IMHO that is.

Thank you, but I am skeptical. I have found that unless a speaker moves a lot of air I do not get that "in the chest" feeling.

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo, I am sure you sold several of us on the performance of the Apogees from the mid-bass and up. But some of us (i.e., Lloyd and me) need that kick in the chest dynamic impact. With respect to adding external subwoofers onto a system with Full Ranges what would be your reasonable cost suggestion and what would be your cost no object, state of the art suggestion?

Sorry if I undersold. The big Apogees are the best I have heard for midrange, bass, realism, and sheet WTF impact. Cost is 17.5k for Full range, you can keep upgrading crossovers to add Duelunds (maybe cost around 15 - 20k more, dunno) or go active and add cost of amplification. Costs in Euros. Don't see why one would need subs except for organ music

 

[Zero000]

Thank you, but I am skeptical. I have found that unless a speaker moves a lot of air I do not get that "in the chest" feeling.

I knew you would be. You have to witness it. Dynamic speakers that do better do exist. Mainly in electronic music clubs IME.

 

[bonzo75]

Thank you, but I am skeptical. I have found that unless a speaker moves a lot of air I do not get that "in the chest" feeling.

When a 7 feet * 3 feet (not sure of the dimensions) panel moves rapidly, tiny conal woofers can't compete. You won't really feel the kick in the chest. When Holst's planets is playing, you will feel like an MMA guy is straddling your chest and punching you across repeatedly, but in a rythmic musical fashion that makes you like it

 

[RBFC]

Ron, as a former owner of full-ranges, I will tell you that they provide plenty of slam. When Mickey Hart pushes over the "Beast" drum kit on Reference Recordings' Dafos, I thought the walls of my room would come down. Yes, I was using 4 Krell monoblocks (KMA-160, so not "super-powerful or expensive). Better, more powerful (more current) amps would only increase this intensity.

Vocals are very pure as well. I remember being somewhat disappointed with the sound of Eric Clapton's vocals on his "Unplugged" album when played through my next pair of speakers! (Had to downsize due to space, still regret getting rid of the Apogees).

You owe it to yourself to audition the panels, just so you will personally understand the special nature of their sound. Whether it is exactly what you desire......

Lee

 

[bonzo75]

And Lee, I don't know if yours were stock, but these refurbed ones are ten times sturdier, Graz's bass panels are considered to be much superior to the stock, and the restorers have really learned to tune the crossovers, which makes a big difference.

Ron, and if you want to further improve on existing SOTA, get Graz to build you a Definitive, 100db, that you can run with SETs

 

[RBFC]

And Lee, I don't know if yours were stock, but these refurbed ones are ten times sturdier, Graz's bass panels are considered to be much superior to the stock, and the restorers have really learned to tune the crossovers, which makes a big difference.

Ron, and if you want to further improve on existing SOTA, get Graz to build you a Definitive, 100db, that you can run with SETs

Mine were stock. I was using the active crossover that split the bass panels from the midrange/tweeter module. The best performance, according to Jason Bloom (RIP), was a tri-amp setup using active crossover for a three-way split.

I'd agree that improved bass performance (linearity, smoothness) would be the largest incremental improvement in these speakers.

Lee

 

[bonzo75]

Mine were stock. I was using the active crossover that split the bass panels from the midrange/tweeter module. The best performance, according to Jason Bloom (RIP), was a tri-amp setup using active crossover for a three-way split.

I'd agree that improved bass performance (linearity, smoothness) would be the largest incremental improvement in these speakers.

Lee

Guy was a bloody genius. Single handedly came up with something so gigantic that smites everything. At least Western Electric had all Bell Labs funding and Govt backing to do what they did.

 

[RBFC]

Guy was a bloody genius. Single handedly came up with something so gigantic that smites everything. At least Western Electric had all Bell Labs funding and Govt backing to do what they did.

Between him and Leo Spiegel ( his father-in-law, I believe, who was a NASA engineer IIRC), they did come up with something special. I was fortunate enough to have conversations with Jason several times and also to have met Leo once.

Lee

 

[Zero000]

The Grand wasn't just Leo Spiegel - it was a collaborative project. Google for more if interested.

 

[Ron Resnick]

And Lee, I don't know if yours were stock, but these refurbed ones are ten times sturdier, Graz's bass panels are considered to be much superior to the stock, and the restorers have really learned to tune the crossovers, which makes a big difference.

Ron, and if you want to further improve on existing SOTA, get Graz to build you a Definitive, 100db, that you can run with SETs

Bonzo, I wrote to Graz today to see where his Diva-sized version of the Advance 7 prototype is.

Thank you, Lee.

 

[Zero000]

Ron - things are never quick in Apogee land. But they do materialise eventually. Which, of course, is good.

Essentially it is a small operation with a number of restorers/builders worldwide who may have other interests and jobs in life too. They manage, somehow, to keep the enigma alive. And of course on the curious, like Kedar, to spread the word

 

[Argonaut]

Guy was a bloody genius. Single handedly came up with something so gigantic that smites everything

So are you implying that Apogies are the best transducers ever made ? That is quite some sweeper even for you!