Apogee Full range
- Thread starter bonzo75
- Start date
Lissnr, yr enthusiasm for my potential future course much appreciated, as is Justin's continued easing of my way.
I spoke to Peter of Omegas fame, and in his conventionally sized room, he finds he's tot ok w/60W Nat SE2SE's, and wants for nothing. But I know he listens at rel sedate levels.
He admits that in a larger space, going 120W Transmitters is de rigeur. And he is a big fan of biamping, I guess one pair for mids/treble ribbons, one pair for bass panels. Apparently AA have an active x/over box as an option, meaning it's placed before the pwr amps.
My likely space is going to be a converted loft, 9' high, max 25' wide, 30' deep, gen triangular in cross section (ie half the cubic volume of the same dimensions equivalent non triangular shape).
I spoke to Peter of Omegas fame, and in his conventionally sized room, he finds he's tot ok w/60W Nat SE2SE's, and wants for nothing. But I know he listens at rel sedate levels.
He admits that in a larger space, going 120W Transmitters is de rigeur. And he is a big fan of biamping, I guess one pair for mids/treble ribbons, one pair for bass panels. Apparently AA have an active x/over box as an option, meaning it's placed before the pwr amps.
My likely space is going to be a converted loft, 9' high, max 25' wide, 30' deep, gen triangular in cross section (ie half the cubic volume of the same dimensions equivalent non triangular shape).
Marc - I think you'll need more power to fill that size loft and enjoy full dynamics. What about active biamping the bass panel with a potent ss and keep the NAT on the rest?
Two q's Bill. Remember this triangular x/section space will be half the volume of a cuboid room for the same plan area.
What Class A, or AB, would you recommend for the bass panels? Class D need not apply. Go to 300W.
And is it the bass panels that need the beefiest ie non SET, amps? Or are the bigger impedance swings to be had in the mids/treble ribbons?
Imagine biamping w/FOUR Nat Magma SE's in the room, 170W Class A all the way. Watching the electricity meter dial visibly speed up would be fun/scary.
What Class A, or AB, would you recommend for the bass panels? Class D need not apply. Go to 300W.
And is it the bass panels that need the beefiest ie non SET, amps? Or are the bigger impedance swings to be had in the mids/treble ribbons?
Imagine biamping w/FOUR Nat Magma SE's in the room, 170W Class A all the way. Watching the electricity meter dial visibly speed up would be fun/scary.
Hi Marc,
I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that the impedance dips were in the bass. What we need are some measurements for these speakers - have you seen any? I know hifi news reviewed some AA years ago and measured them but don't know which particular one and I think there were revisions to that design.
I would go class A myself - question is how much do you want to spend and how much juice do you need for that loft? Can you adjust gain with the active crossover cos you'll likely also have that issue if you are mixing different amps in this way?
4 Magmas would be cool but I think 2 would suffice
75db is quite quiet - is that your normal listening level also? I listen at 80-85 db average with much bigger peaks. I think you might want to wind the system up when you are out in the countryside!
Hi Marc,
I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that the impedance dips were in the bass. What we need are some measurements for these speakers - have you seen any? I know hifi news reviewed some AA years ago and measured them but don't know which particular one and I think there were revisions to that design.
I would go class A myself - question is how much do you want to spend and how much juice do you need for that loft? Can you adjust gain with the active crossover cos you'll likely also have that issue if you are mixing different amps in this way?
4 Magmas would be cool but I think 2 would suffice
75db is quite quiet - is that your normal listening level also? I listen at 80-85 db average with much bigger peaks. I think you might want to wind the system up when you are out in the countryside!
Bill, tbh getting unequivocal info on specs/graphs etc is harder than finding a four leaf clover. No doubt the Graz restores are more forgiving than the Apogees of old, w/the Definitives (currently n/a) and Duettas the easiest, Divas in the middle, Scintillas the worst.
Justin runs his Graz Duettas w/211's, but I believe loves them maybe more w/Accuphase SS. And his 211's have some unique propensity for massive reserves maybe not even available to Nats.
Most others, the vast majority use conventional high pwrd SS. Lissn'r uses 200W ch TRLs. Someone else uses Krell SS/bank of 4 Nat Transmitters.
I wouldn't risk going to Duettas or even AA Omegas/Amphytrions w/anything less than Nat Transmitters, and would probably try at some stage to biamp w/2 pairs. Really believe in Class A all the way even if small Pacific atolls disagree w/me.
But I still can't quite work out if this is "twds optimal" or "just ok".
Since when was "just ok" good enough for "What's Best"?
Hello Marc
The easiest do drive Apogee is IMHO the Studio Ribbon Array respectively the Studio Grand with linear 6 Ohm impedance over the whole frequency range and about 87dB/watt/3m.
I drive my Studio Grands in a huge room with 30 watt SET from KR Audio and it's easily loud enough. Maybe Kedar can jime in to give his opinion on the possible volume.
I have a 50 watt SET Kronzilla on the way to my place but I don't expect that to be much louder.
I will test this when Zilla is here and report back...
Btw: a friend of mine drive the Apogee Grand (not Studio Grand, the real GRAND) with 4 NAT Emitters. I haven't heard this new setup, though, but I have heard the Grand with SE1 and SE2s and that was already very nice.
Cheers,
Christoph
The easiest do drive Apogee is IMHO the Studio Ribbon Array respectively the Studio Grand with linear 6 Ohm impedance over the whole frequency range and about 87dB/watt/3m.
I drive my Studio Grands in a huge room with 30 watt SET from KR Audio and it's easily loud enough. Maybe Kedar can jime in to give his opinion on the possible volume.
I have a 50 watt SET Kronzilla on the way to my place but I don't expect that to be much louder.
I will test this when Zilla is here and report back...
Btw: a friend of mine drive the Apogee Grand (not Studio Grand, the real GRAND) with 4 NAT Emitters. I haven't heard this new setup, though, but I have heard the Grand with SE1 and SE2s and that was already very nice.
Cheers,
Christoph
Christolph, my choice to go Apogee will be Duettas only. Hence my thoughts are restricted to this model only.
Hi Marc
In this case it's really simple.
Grab your amps and head towards Justin.
This is the easiest way to find out for sure if this setup works.
Simple as that
Cheers,
Christoph
In this case it's really simple.
Grab your amps and head towards Justin.
This is the easiest way to find out for sure if this setup works.
Simple as that
Cheers,
Christoph
Hi Marc
In this case it's really simple.
Grab your amps and head towards Justin.
This is the easiest way to find out for sure if this setup works.
Simple as that
Cheers,
Christoph
Ah but the competing Omega dealer won't let him... I wonder why?
Marc - restored Graz Duettas are no more efficient than the originals.
Also, Interstella is no more efficient on paper that original Duettas or refurbs. However, I notice Interstella IS easier to drive than my Duetta refurbs were. I think this maybe because less energy is lost in the frames as they are far more rigid. Another possibility is that the ribbon/magnet gaps are more precise/optimal and I suspect they are. The speaker has been made to higher tolerances by far than the original Apogee effort - to the extent that you can obviously visibly see it.
The ONLY way to get much improved efficiency is to use high power magnets. The ONLY Duetta(ish) sized model ever to have done that is Synergy. It is no longer made.
It is easier and cheaper to supply power than it is to use neodymium magnets.
Your speakers, if made, would use very marginally higher power magnets than mine. Not sure it'll make much real world difference, TBH.
The speaker is a flat 4 Ohms over the range.
I've said most of this before.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Apogees and power. Power and Apogees.
Power to the Apogee!
The debate never ends...
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Hi Justin
Do I get this right?
The Omega dealer doesn't want to let Marc take his (Marc's) amps to your place?
How can he prevent that?
I take it Marc DID pay for his NAT amps and they belong to Marc and NOT to the dealer...?
I would also have guessed, that the increased rigidity adds to the perceived volume level.
Btw., I prefer the 30 SET watts of my KR Audio amp over the several hundert watts of my also amazing Lamm hybrid monos
Cheers,
Christoph
Do I get this right?
The Omega dealer doesn't want to let Marc take his (Marc's) amps to your place?
How can he prevent that?
I take it Marc DID pay for his NAT amps and they belong to Marc and NOT to the dealer...?
I would also have guessed, that the increased rigidity adds to the perceived volume level.
Btw., I prefer the 30 SET watts of my KR Audio amp over the several hundert watts of my also amazing Lamm hybrid monos
Cheers,
Christoph
No I'm told Peter won't allow the Transmitters round (unpaid for) and TBH I can see his angle. I don't consider the 60 Watts of Marc's existing amps to be adequate for high SPLs. Defo NOT What's Best.
The improved geometrical accuracy of Interstella was high on the list of priorities and Jon did a great job on it. I'm just saying so as I used the word "suspect" in my previous post etc which is mis-leading. I know, to be precise. That said, when the frames are built from scratch it is far easier to make this happen than with a much older speaker. Also, the internal aluminium frame bracing method specified by me will ensure it STAYS that way for decades, I'd hope.
The two uses of "suspect" are really rather more "it is the case that", if you catch my drift.
The improved geometrical accuracy of Interstella was high on the list of priorities and Jon did a great job on it. I'm just saying so as I used the word "suspect" in my previous post etc which is mis-leading. I know, to be precise. That said, when the frames are built from scratch it is far easier to make this happen than with a much older speaker. Also, the internal aluminium frame bracing method specified by me will ensure it STAYS that way for decades, I'd hope.
The two uses of "suspect" are really rather more "it is the case that", if you catch my drift.
Hi Justin
OK, I also understand that the dealer wouldn't allow those expensive Transmitters to go in tour.
I meant Marc wasn't "allowed" to carry his own NAT SE2s to your place... That would have been odd.
But why not take the SE2s to your place as a "feeler"?
if the attainable sound level is too little but the sonics are excellent, Marc could still later upgrade to Transmitters, even trade in his SE2s...
I would guess the NATs do have a "house sound".
Cheers,
Christoph
OK, I also understand that the dealer wouldn't allow those expensive Transmitters to go in tour.
I meant Marc wasn't "allowed" to carry his own NAT SE2s to your place... That would have been odd.
But why not take the SE2s to your place as a "feeler"?
if the attainable sound level is too little but the sonics are excellent, Marc could still later upgrade to Transmitters, even trade in his SE2s...
I would guess the NATs do have a "house sound".
Cheers,
Christoph
I agree, Marc might lose some control and bass but will get some idea of tonality. When I compared KR with M1.1 at Christoph's I lost bass and control on complex music but got and idea of the tonality. Same with when I compared Thrax 50w on JBL 66000 vs a class D amp.
One small problem - half of Marc's NAT is wedged in his thigh
I know he loved them, but was he trying? Kinky
Now now everyone, I've been wounded in the devotion to my art. Trying to explain to the nurse what a 211 tube is, let alone landing on one and extricating bits from my leg, she had a look on her face that was truly a picture. I'm sure she thinks I was making the whole thing up!
As a starter I'll get an idea of how Justin's Interstellas sound thru his system, compare w/a visit to Peter to listen to the Omegas/SE2SE's, and take it from there.
Peter remains adamant the 60W SE2SE's are a great match for the Omegas, as long as in a standard domestic room, and the wick is not turned up all the way.
This is all a bit of a circular argument, I suspect the only definitive answer is that the more power the better, whereas this is decidedly not the mantra w/my Zus or horns.
There's no doubt that if we were talking about box spkrs of lowis efficiency, not many would be advising the Nats w/them.
Saying that, I think Peter drives his Vandersteens w/Transmitters, and I don't recall them running out of puff.
As a starter I'll get an idea of how Justin's Interstellas sound thru his system, compare w/a visit to Peter to listen to the Omegas/SE2SE's, and take it from there.
Peter remains adamant the 60W SE2SE's are a great match for the Omegas, as long as in a standard domestic room, and the wick is not turned up all the way.
This is all a bit of a circular argument, I suspect the only definitive answer is that the more power the better, whereas this is decidedly not the mantra w/my Zus or horns.
There's no doubt that if we were talking about box spkrs of lowis efficiency, not many would be advising the Nats w/them.
Saying that, I think Peter drives his Vandersteens w/Transmitters, and I don't recall them running out of puff.
Justin, if you think that, then the 120W Transmitters should be more than fine. Even more so if I go biamping in time.
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