Apogee Full range

[spiritofmusic]

I get the impression that the current Graz Duettas (incl Justin's Interstellas) are a more benign load than the old original Apogees, esp ones like the Studio Grand. And that the impedance figures are a tad misleading, measured mid-late 80's at 1m, whereas this figure is higher (90+) at 3-4m, the most practical listening distance. Maybe the impedance swings in the bass panels below 3 Ohms are not so brutal in the Graz versions as well. So, this makes Justin's Graz Duettas, and the upcoming Advance 7's maybe the first Apogees that are happier w/SETs, esp ones as capable as Nat Transmitters. Apparently a lot of this is due to more powerful magnets, w/the Advance 7 promising to be the most powerful yet.
The issue is whether "happier w/SETs" is the same as "thrives on SETs". I've already been warned off even considering Vivid Giyas, JBL Everests, various Rockports, to be powered by SETs (even capable Transmitters), and this warning applies to the Graz Apogees as well. A consensus amongst the skeptical is that the Graz Apogees can work w/pwrful SETs, but they may not strut their stuff fully. The problem is that it's only when you have them at home for a while and chuck more and more challenging/loud/dynamically challenging material, that a tendency to hardness/clipping/running out of steam may become more and more apparent.
A consensus amongst the optimistic is that the specs do not rule out SETs assuming they're of the Nat Transmitter ratings, and that should be good enough long term.
Certainly whan I demo the Graz Duettas, I'll need to hear them w/capable SETs. I cannot buy on the basis of SS demo alone.
If I go this route, I would certainly consider a second pair of Transmitters to biamp, and cover the power even more.
However at this price level, I could also invest in AG Trios, which are tried and tested as as thriving on SETs as you can get.

 

[gilles13]

The owner of the grand answered:
The Grand uses 8 amplifiers, 2 Krells for the subwoofer, 2 NAT Transmitter for the Midbass, 2 NAT Transmitter for the Midrange and 2 Krells for the Tweeter.

 

[bonzo75]

I heard Henk restored Divas with Musical Fidelity KW 750 in a room that was exactly the same as my current one - 4.5m front to back, and extremely wide.

The digital source was a marantz CDP into a Metrum dac, Valhalla cabling (which I don't like). I found the system not exciting, not as fast as the Apogees I have heard, and the bass wasn't there like the full range. I was later to learn from Justin that The Diva has lesser bass than the full range and the Duetta Sig (though it is a model up from the Duetta). It had decent midrange but not as creamy as the FR.

The bass waves I heard with the FR weren't there. This could be a mix of better bass on the FR, plus the room - more downward firing space with the FR. Also the Diva was just 1m from the front wall.

We then moved to the turntable. He had an Acoustic Solid (2nd from top), Kuzma 4point tonearm, and Ortofon A90 cartridge going into a German SS phono called Blue Amp. The sound absolutely transformed! This was among the most perfect systems I had heard. The dynamics and speed went up by multi-notches. There was the perfect flow like in a concert hall, with bass and wall to soundstage that was seamless with the speakers disappearing completely. This was on orchestral LPs like Espana as well as on violin solo like Bruch Scottish Fantasia.

Today morning I sent a text to Ron that the variance in TT set ups is much higher than in digital set ups, this makes TT demos a bit misleading while looking at speakers. To me it also explains why he didn't get depth in the trios because he is so used to demoing with TTs.

For me it was also a very decisive demo. I can easily settle for a cheap used Analysis Audio Omega and with Lampi and a good TT, it will be a system as good as any.

Mind, till the TT came in, the system was nowhere as good as the full range, nor as good the Wilson Alexandria with Dan Agostino Momentums and Vivaldi Stack and Opus Cabling. With the TT in, it was much better.

As an aside, the guy also told me he had a friend with Verity Lohengrins and NAT transmitters and a TT whose system sounded excellent. So I was on the right track, just not patient enough to see it through.

He had a lot of experience with NATs. He has got another system in the same room with NAT Magma M (80w, made before the Magma) that he uses on a small floorstander system called Consensus Audio with big REL subs. He had Utopia and Symmetrical before but now changed to Music First because he wanted both balanced and SE. He had the NAT Xenon power conditioner, which he said was good but sold it as it was too big, hot, and hence inconvenient. However this system, with the same TT, sounded really boring, hence my emphasis that amps make a much smaller difference to the entire set up. Imagine if he had made that his primary system because he was a fan of certain amps as opposed to putting in Musical Fidelity into better speakers. Who would do such a thing?


It will be interesting to listen to a TT into the CLX, as it can give it more weight and dynamics.

 

[Zero000]

Can understand the TT reaction. When I haven't used mine for a good while it frequently stuns me. Then you get to realise it has real foibles like shockingly poor LF performance due to minor to major record warps (which cause large excursions on subs and Apogee bass panels alike, and that are NOT part of the recording), high noise relative to digital etc etc all the usual analogue foibles. No amount of money thrown at TT setups can ever really solve those problems.

 

[bonzo75]

My demo LPs due to carrying along on travel have a lot of dust, clicks and pops. I seem insensitive to those and as long as the mastering on the LP is good, I totally enjoy the demo through the clicks and pops.

 

[Zero000]

Agreed but be careful or we'll have an analogue versus digital debate.

Please all let's NOT go there. My post was a mistake

 

[Argonaut]

It would have been most interesting had you been in a position to introduce the BiG7 into the system, and then to further compare Lampizator digital against the Analogue.

 

[Zero000]

It would have been most interesting had you been in a position to introduce the BiG7 into the system, and then to further compare Lampizator digital against the Analogue.

I run a Big 7 and an analogue set up.

What I find most interesting is when the LED lights are pointed at the Apogee, you can see in intense detail ripples in the bass panel corresponding to the input signal. They are complex, but introduce vinyl and play the same tracks they become much more complex. Unfortunately, the reason is not in analogue's favour! It's no different on any other full range(ish) system apart from the fact you can explicitly see it in detail here. Of course, turn the lights off and you can't see it. It is quite mesmerising, though.

 

[Ron Resnick]

That was a very interesting report, Bonzo75! Thank you.

I am thinking through the turntable variance point. I am pretty sure I agree with you.

I feel that somehow it may be a tiered phenomenon. I think the very top turntable set-ups I have heard all sound amazing and sound fairly similar (except maybe for tonal balance differences due to cartridge selection). And I think the members of the next large tier down the vinyl food chain sound noticeably not as good as the members of the top tier.

 

[Zero000]

It will be interesting to listen to a TT into the CLX, as it can give it more weight and dynamics.

Kedar - the best that reasonably modern vinyl has to offer comes from 45 rpm 12 inch records - the ones with approx. 5 minute tracks per side. I'm not sure much classical is available in that format but I dunno cos I never listen to it really.

Ron is right, though. Very high quality record playback requires very fine tolerance engineering using high quality materials (generally), and the right design ideas. The former never comes cheap and the later can be used to compensate for compromises in engineering quality to some extent. But at the end of the day even the highest quality LP vinyl systems cannot overcome the limitations of the format. It is impossible to eliminate the resonances, tracking inaccuracies and other compromises that I believe so many enjoy - including me from time to time. What I am saying is its technical limitations produce additives that when done right can sound very good indeed. Just like the triodes in a Lampi, arguably.

 

[bonzo75]

That was a very interesting report, Bonzo75! Thank you.

I am thinking through the turntable variance point. I am pretty sure I agree with you. I feel that somehow it may be a tiered phenomenon. I think the very top turntable set-ups I have heard all sound amazing and sound fairly similar (except maybe for tonal balance differences due to cartridge selection). And I think the members of the next large tier down the vinyl food chain sound noticeably not as good as the members of the top tier.

I think it is more to do with set up. But either way, what I mean is when you like a system with a TT, it is possibly the TT you like, and not the speaker, or both, difficult to distinguish. It is much easier for me to judge the speaker on digital

 

[Audiophile Bill]

What I am saying is its technical limitations produce additives that when done right can sound very good indeed. Just like the triodes in a Lampi, arguably.

Great posting there, Justin!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Kedar - the best that reasonably modern vinyl has to offer comes from 45 rpm 12 inch records - the ones with approx. 5 minute tracks per side. I'm not sure much classical is available in that format but I dunno cos I never listen to it really.

Ron is right, though. Very high quality record playback requires very fine tolerance engineering using high quality materials (generally), and the right design ideas. The former never comes cheap and the later can be used to compensate for compromises in engineering quality to some extent. But at the end of the day even the highest quality LP vinyl systems cannot overcome the limitations of the format. It is impossible to eliminate the resonances, tracking inaccuracies and other compromises that I believe so many enjoy - including me from time to time. What I am saying is its technical limitations produce additives that when done right can sound very good indeed. Just like the triodes in a Lampi, arguably.

Justin, the sum of the parts of the tt sound is truly additive.
I have a tt/arm at £2.5k, a cart at £4.5k, and the equivalent of a phono at £3k. £10k total gets me an amazing technical package, use of materials, and a barrier-busting sound for that price range and well beyond. Just as the Big 7/GG does. Analog remains totally compelling, even at my modest outlay. No way do I go Apogees w/out enjoying my lp's thru them.

 

[Zero000]

No way do I go Apogees w/out enjoying my lp's thru them.

I'm not encouraging you to. If it turns out you like them, fair enough. If not, fair enough.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh Justin, all I mean is that depite yr misgivings about vinyl, it must sound great thru Apogees even if the spkrs highlight some of the challenges of analog playback.

 

[bonzo75]

I'm not encouraging you to. If it turns out you like them, fair enough. If not, fair enough.

Justin, you need to observe some forum etiquette. Please be irrationally passionate about your way (or say it's the highway), so that the thread can continue

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ultrasonic vinyl bass action w/backlighted Interstellas' bass panels must be quite something. Action going on even when things should be perfectly still. No wonder vinyl is so engrossing and involving, well into the time period it should have been consigned to the bin containing 8 track, Betamax, wax cylinders, fax machines etc.

 

[bonzo75]

One should put Ortofon A90, high speed cartridge, into Spectrals driving Apogees. The system will be steroidal - the fastest, slammiest system possible. Justin, you will love it

 

[Zero000]

Justin, you need to observe some forum etiquette. Please be irrationally passionate about your way (or say it's the highway), so that the thread can continue

Apogees rule you blithering idiots. I can't understand why anyone would use anything else. Are you all mental? Format regardless, they poop on everything else out there.

Job done.

 

[Zero000]

One should put Ortofon A90, high speed cartridge, into Spectrals driving Apogees. The system will be steroidal - the fastest, slammiest system possible. Justin, you will love it

No need a cheap Parasound A21 will produce a sound so dynamic/overwhelming the Maxell advert, if it had used Apogees, would have seen Pete Burns propelled into the stratosphere!