AQ Jitterbug Measurements

[Orb]

Sorry, didn't mean to create confusion here. I have not yet measured the AQ. I was posting my measurements without it, showing that "noise" is not a problem in my system post output of the DAC. But for completeness, I will measure both the Regen and AQ and post the results.

Doh,
well I am just as guilty for adding to that confusion
Thanks for the clarification.
Cheers
Orb

 

[amirm]

No worries. Just to set context, we have moved and I am having ton of fun setting up my system in the new home. And listening to a ton of new music courtesy of all the great suggestions from our fellow members/audiophiles. Sitting there and measuring this device takes far lower priority . That said, Michael has sent me the Regen so when it arrives, it will become a high priority to listen to it and measure it so that I can send it back to him.

 

[microstrip]

If we thought there was no audible difference, yes, measurements like that would add confidence there, especially if they show no difference at all.

If they differ from our audible experience, then we have to think through an explanation if we care about uncovering what is really going on.

Can I ask who are the "we" of "we thought there was no audible difference"? Considering all I have read, If I had to "think" my opinion on what I read about the device I would have to "think" there is an audible difference. It is why I want to get one of these devices to listen for myself.

Most probably the audible effects of the jitterbug will show in a normal high-end electronic audio chain. But I will not expect them to show in the measurement you are considering with your ML360s DAC (I think it is the one you own) connected the Audio Precision. Your Berkeley USB /AES converter plus DAC system is optimized for the audio reproduction with good measurements, but in the humble opinion of many members of this forum is not their preferred DAC in therms of sound quality. Otherwise eBay prices of it will climb!

IMHO the effects of the jitterbug will show mainly in the RFI and EMC domains, something much more difficult to measure. But I would appreciate if you could carry your measurement with the Devialet 200!

 

[amirm]

Can I ask who are the "we" of "we thought there was no audible difference"?

Who is buried in Grant's tomb?

Most probably the audible effects of the jitterbug will show in a normal high-end electronic audio chain. But I will not expect them to show in the measurement you are considering with your ML360s DAC (I think it is the one you own) connected the Audio Precision. Your Berkeley USB /AES converter plus DAC system is optimized for the audio reproduction with good measurements, but in the humble opinion of many members of this forum is not their preferred DAC in therms of sound quality. Otherwise eBay prices of it will climb!

When did you listen to that combo last?

IMHO the effects of the jitterbug will show mainly in the RFI and EMC domains, something much more difficult to measure.

Such things are coming out of a DAC and are important to hearing music?

 

[microstrip]

Who is buried in Grant's tomb?


When did you listen to that combo last?


Such things are coming out of a DAC and are important to hearing music?

Now we have "You bet your life" in WBF? Can we know what are the prizes?

 

[YashN]

You state that as certainty but there is no data to back that in high quality systems. Here is what my DAC outputs when driven over USB using a USB to S/PDIF bridge:

Look at that noise floor and explain what about that is coming from USB bus and why I should care even if it does.

That's not the data one should be looking for: the only data that could be important is whatever measurable difference you find in these charts between two different setups once you've heard the difference (if you hear it since no one claimed it will work in 100% of cases).

Judging what an appliance does by looking at a single chart and without listening is near useless.

 

[YashN]

Any grain of sand on the road in theory can reach your body in the car seat. That theoretical impact has no impact in reality because of multiple layers of isolation between that grain of sand, and our ability to detect such unevenness in the road. Would you suggest we start to vacuum the roads as to get rid of every grain of sand and that would result in more comfortable rides?

There's no need to go too far in finding odd analogies to try and explain what these devices do here. For a closer one, just remember why we wanted the DAC to be outside the computer in the first place.

 

[YashN]

OK. Let me repeat. Swenson alluded to measured differences. Alex promised Swenson's measurements.

Your information is quite outdated.

 

[amirm]

Judging what an appliance does by looking at a single chart and without listening is near useless.

You said it reduces noise so I showed you the noise measurement. How is that useless relative to the statement you made of what it did?

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Your information is quite outdated.

Link, please?

 

[Andre Marc]

The fervour with which some listeners want to 'believe' always surprises me , remember nothing is heard inthe digital domain,only the analogue.
Keith.

Puzzling statement. What happens in the digital domain DIRECTLY affects the analog output.

 

[Orb]

Show me the audible 'improvement' in the analogue output.
Keith.

Hi-fi News measurements.
But as I have mentioned in the past the setup (including all components including those in and connected to the laptop-PC) and environment is critical for such a test.
Same could be seen when they reviewed and measured the Melco N1A for its USB, in its case ethernet though was marginal at best, but what made that review interesting is how the reviewer noted only marginal improvements via ethernet that could be done cheaper with other equipment while noting good improvements with USB that could be deemed to loosely correlate to the improved measurements for that interface Paul Miller did.

Cheers
Orb

 

[dallasjustice]

I like coffee. I use a machine which heats the water to exactly 200 degrees before the water passes through a chemex filter filled with Java. If I fill the coffee machine with water measuring 35 degrees Fahrenheit, will the coffee be any different than if I fill the machine with the same water but measuring 70 degrees Fahrenheit?

So no, that's not how modern DACs work. Your rhetoric suffers from the fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Puzzling statement. What happens in the digital domain DIRECTLY affects the analog output.

 

[Andre Marc]

I like coffee. I use a machine which heats the water to exactly 200 degrees before the water passes through a chemex filter filled with Java. If I fill the coffee machine with water measuring 35 degrees Fahrenheit, will the coffee be any different than if I fill the machine with the same water but measuring 70 degrees Fahrenheit?

So no, that's not how modern DACs work. Your rhetoric suffers from the fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Absolute bunk.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Puzzling statement. What happens in the digital domain DIRECTLY affects the analog output.

Puzzling statement. Does that apply to each and every DAC in the same way for any change whatsoever to the USB noise spectrum, which is what we are discussing? Yes, digital SIGNAL directly affects the analog output. But, the question of accompanying analog noise riding on the digital signal is much murkier and may be very DAC specific as to degree of audibility.

Amir's USB noise spectrum measurement is so low it would not seem to allow much room for audible improvements by lowering any part of that spectrum's energy. Yes, I know the "I heard the improvement with my own ears in the sighted comparison I did" argument. That is not a very compelling argument, even if it could be shown that the measured noise spectrum was reduduced in some way. Yes, I know, "trust your ears". But, as has been discussed elsewhere in a different thread, sighted listening comparisons involve more than just the ears by definition.

 

[microstrip]

I like coffee. I use a machine which heats the water to exactly 200 degrees before the water passes through a chemex filter filled with Java. If I fill the coffee machine with water measuring 35 degrees Fahrenheit, will the coffee be any different than if I fill the machine with the same water but measuring 70 degrees Fahrenheit?
(...)

Do you believe that warm water can freeze faster than cold water? Then IMHO you should be able to accept that our knowledge about interfacing digital data sources, DAC's and stereo systems is not perfect.

 

[Orb]

The point is there may be nominal improvements in data transmission in the digital domain, but if those 'improvements ' do not translate into measurable and audible differences in the analogue domain ,them they count for nothing.
Keith.

Context, and test specifics-focus is important Keith, again look at the review and measurements for Jitterbug,Melco N1A,etc in Hi-fi News.
You are right in some ways, such as trying to correlate eye pattern to SQ; but interestingly it can be shown that here this can influence the PC-to-DAC in terms of operation; such as the Audiostream review and a superb DAC that when using a specific USB cable could only work in precision mode (something like that) when using the Jitterbug - due to I am sure behaviour of the eye mask-pattern that was compromised by the USB cable and a little bit maybe by the PC with the Jitterbug improving this.
Cheers
Orb

 

[dallasjustice]

I guess lavorgna is "man who" evidence to support the claims made? I'll give it to him. He's relentlessly been trying to prove himself to all the doubters with his numerous scientistic screeds.

Context, and test specifics-focus is important Keith, again look at the review and measurements for Jitterbug,Melco N1A,etc in Hi-fi News.
You are right in some ways, such as trying to correlate eye pattern to SQ; but interestingly it can be shown that here this can influence the PC-to-DAC in terms of operation; such as the Audiostream review and a superb DAC that when using a specific USB cable could only work in precision mode (something like that) when using the Jitterbug - due to I am sure behaviour of the eye mask-pattern that was compromised by the USB cable and a little bit maybe by the PC with the Jitterbug improving this.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

I guess lavorgna is "man who" evidence to support the claims made? I'll give it to him. He's relentlessly been trying to prove himself to all the doubters with his numerous scientistic screeds.

Context is important.
My point is not about subjective improvement in this case but actual notable operational performance; it works or it does not and that is the situation I am mentioning Lavorgna experienced with a well acknowledged DAC that has a loose and precision clock related mode, with that Lightspeed USB cable (which is less than optimum it seems).

Cheers
Orb

 

[YashN]

You said it reduces noise so I showed you the noise measurement.

Was the noise measurement you showed the measurement of the PHY noise when the Regen is in use as compared to the measurement of the PHY noise when the Regen isn't in the chain?