Aries Cerat, Lampizator, Audio Research, Analysis Omega, Rockports

[bonzo75]

Hi morricab,

I'm not sure that's a fair comment. I don't believe Bonzo nor Flyer's intention was to conduct a formal review. They simply got together to compare and contrast - perhaps it's best to think of it as an informal collection of impressions. At least, that's the way I read it.

Best,

853guy

Thanks - for morricab it shouldn't matter. When he goes for the one or two live shows he does a year, he will come back home and find that the tubes he owns produced the symphony sound from the second row - tone and presence thread no 3

Fyi, Michel was offered to sit in the middle. He did a couple of times, at times I checked with him and he confirmed what I heard, and he changed the volume too. We also discussed the report over phone before I posted.

 

[bonzo75]

Fyi, my reports together listening with Mike, DDK's multiple TTs, and yesterday with Barry, as well as with Gian and his friends - they will confirm they heard what I heard in those sessions. They have also posted such comments. This is Barry's http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-Audio-Machina&p=436516&viewfull=1#post436516

I received this from another owner of Vitus (posted on my blog) - "would value your opinion as your description of Vitus Class A is exactly how I hear it everyday!"

So, I totally get that Brad, whose opinions I question regularly such as about running flea watts on Apogees, and running big planars in small rooms, questions mine. People can read both and judge.

So would Detlof, and probably the most complex because of number of components and my lesser familiarity with analog gear would be DDK's http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20411-A-visit-to-DDk-s&p=388507&viewfull=1#post388507

So, you want to doubt I heard what I heard, that's fine. Have the background though.

 

[microstrip]

This was the root for my question. When I review gear I set the level to within 1db with pink noise and calibrated microphone into my Behringer DEQ 24/96. Otherwise you will subconsciously stack things in favor of the one that you want to sound better. This means making it a few db too high in level as a simple case. Since Michel let Ked control the testing it is not too surprising the outcome and the findings are suspect.
(...)

It is just semantics but IMHO there is nothing to suspect in a report - people just expose preferences in certain conditions. I asked the question because I wanted to know them, not exactly because of this thread, but also because of many other reports on tube swaps. Unfortunately people associate too much absolute value to what they read.

Yes, I know it is easier to be cool when just reading for information and entertainment, not for advice or to support our beliefs and preferences.

 

[bonzo75]

Unfortunately people associate too much absolute value to what they read.

Yes. These are pointers to investigate - not absolutes to decide on

 

[bonzo75]

Another example - I have compared the Reed, Pluto top model, Feickert Firebird, and Thales once. I achieved some consistency there, and sensed an issue with the set up of one TT. I did not post my findings. I am visiting again tomorrow. With analog it is always difficult to achieve complete consistency, so will be caveated accordingly.

 

[Argonaut]

Yes. These are pointers to investigate - not absolutes to decide on

Indeed, It is unfortunate that you did not have the time , means or inclination to tube roll the Ref5se. I am confident that substituting an 70's NOS GE 6550A or 60's solid grey plate TungSol would have gone a long way in addressing the points you describe on your blog, whilst expanding upon the plus points you also mention.

"Putting the Aries in, the noise floor was lower. It was quieter. That was the first thing I noticed. Compared to AR, the soundstage was more back and wide, cohesive. The piano tone was fuller and rounded and there was more linearity top to bottom. On an Oscar Peterson jazz piece, both the piano and the double bass stood out clearly on the Aries, while the piano was more forward with the double bass not as clear on the AR"

 

[bonzo75]

Indeed, It is unfortunate that you did not have the time , means or inclination to tube roll the Ref5se. I am confident that substituting an 70's NOS GE 6550A or 60's solid grey plate TungSol would have gone a long way in addressing the points you describe on your blog, whilst expanding upon the plus points you also mention.

"Putting the Aries in, the noise floor was lower. It was quieter. That was the first thing I noticed. Compared to AR, the soundstage was more back and wide, cohesive. The piano tone was fuller and rounded and there was more linearity top to bottom. On an Oscar Peterson jazz piece, both the piano and the double bass stood out clearly on the Aries, while the piano was more forward with the double bass not as clear on the AR"

Hi Roger, you are right. Unfortunately I do not have the knowledge for that, possibly because all my AR experiences are with stocks. I have put up a link on my blog to this thread so that people can read caveats from other members.

 

[morricab]

Thanks - for morricab it shouldn't matter. When he goes for the one or two live shows he does a year, he will come back home and find that the tubes he owns produced the symphony sound from the second row - tone and presence thread no 3

Fyi, Michel was offered to sit in the middle. He did a couple of times, at times I checked with him and he confirmed what I heard, and he changed the volume too. We also discussed the report over phone before I posted.

I was at 3 live shows in January alone...so don't presume how much live music I get to hear.

Also, don't presume the sound of my system until you have heard it or those combinations of components.

 

[flyer]

Indeed, It is unfortunate that you did not have the time , means or inclination to tube roll the Ref5se. I am confident that substituting an 70's NOS GE 6550A or 60's solid grey plate TungSol would have gone a long way in addressing the points you describe on your blog, whilst expanding upon the plus points you also mention.

"Putting the Aries in, the noise floor was lower. It was quieter. That was the first thing I noticed. Compared to AR, the soundstage was more back and wide, cohesive. The piano tone was fuller and rounded and there was more linearity top to bottom. On an Oscar Peterson jazz piece, both the piano and the double bass stood out clearly on the Aries, while the piano was more forward with the double bass not as clear on the AR"

For me, it was to evaluate how good the Aries Cerat gear is 'out of the box'.

It stood for me on firm ground, certainly if other equipment has to be tweaked to get to even try to get to level to it, it says more about the inherent quality of the Aries Cerat units than anything else. Of course, if I were to be tweaking as well, beyond adjusting the bias to the speakers, then that is a wholly different comparison and game.
Ked swapped his tubes at least 5 times during the session.

Finally, on the famous middle position, as I wrote before virtually all listening was done with Ked in the middle. He offered me effectively once to sit a bit more to the centre, not through a comparison but just one track he particularly liked.

At the very end of the session, I did a comparison, seated from the middle, and it is there that I could conclude already from the first bars the difference between the 45 and the kassandra was not marginal but substantial, though Ked disagreed.
Everyone has different ears and expectations...

Note: Ked actually forgot to mention the triangle on the Oscar Peterson was also distinctly nicer with the Impera (compared to the AR ref5se), showing the improvement was over the full audio spectrum.

 

[Argonaut]

Hi Roger, you are right. Unfortunately I do not have the knowledge for that, possibly because all my AR experiences are with stocks. I have put up a link on my blog to this thread so that people can read caveats from other members.

Oh I quite appreciate that the pre amp shootout was perhaps not the raison d'être of your visit, I really rather like Aries Cerat gear btw.

 

[bonzo75]

Oh I quite appreciate that the pre amp shootout was perhaps not the raison d'être of your visit, I really rather like Aries Cerat gear btw.

I did want to check the preamp signature of Aries Cerat. AR is a good reference since I get to hear that more regularly. I also would like to listen to power and horns, but unfortunately he does not have them at the mo. I really liked their Diana on Animas.

 

[morricab]

Fyi, my reports together listening with Mike, DDK's multiple TTs, and yesterday with Barry, as well as with Gian and his friends - they will confirm they heard what I heard in those sessions. They have also posted such comments. This is Barry's http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-Audio-Machina&p=436516&viewfull=1#post436516

I received this from another owner of Vitus (posted on my blog) - "would value your opinion as your description of Vitus Class A is exactly how I hear it everyday!"

So, I totally get that Brad, whose opinions I question regularly such as about running flea watts on Apogees, and running big planars in small rooms, questions mine. People can read both and judge.

So would Detlof, and probably the most complex because of number of components and my lesser familiarity with analog gear would be DDK's http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20411-A-visit-to-DDk-s&p=388507&viewfull=1#post388507

So, you want to doubt I heard what I heard, that's fine. Have the background though.

Flea power?? I never advocated that. Planars in small rooms works better than any other large speaker in such an environment... it's physics and audible.

I never said you didn't hear what you heard. I doubted the validity of the conclusion because nothing was under control. It's fine if you want to talk about it as a fun listening experience but you are putting it out like a review with conclusions.

 

[bonzo75]

Flea power?? I never advocated that. Planars in small rooms works better than any other large speaker in such an environment... it's physics and audible.

I never said you didn't hear what you heard. I doubted the validity of the conclusion because nothing was under control. It's fine if you want to talk about it as a fun listening experience but you are putting it out like a review with conclusions.

Well - you said it was suspect - you were not there. Let's leave it at that.

Regarding planars in small rooms - Ruch Murry advocates 25ft times almost 20ft for his Divas - Henk has 40ft by 7m, the UK distro of Analysis uses Omega in a reasonably big room - his old room was almost 20ft and speaker centres 8 ft apart with much more space at the sides, still he kept Omegas not Amphi (I don't know his new room size). The GErman Distro stocks both top Analysis models and uses the Omega because the Amphi too big for his 6m * 5m room, and I compared the two and concur. But maybe you are right. for me it's audible. It cannot work.

 

[dctom]

Very interesting write up Ked. Did you have your GG especially adjusted to take the 242s? I use the PX4s and the gain with them is pretty high. At 1/3 vol with some material 85 dB+.

 

[bonzo75]

Very interesting write up Ked. Did you have your GG especially adjusted to take the 242s? I use the PX4s and the gain with them is pretty high. At 1/3 vol with some material 85 dB+.

Oh yes. I was the first who ordered it that way, and Bill, after what he heard in Bill's system

 

[dctom]

OK thanks

 

[bonzo75]

OK thanks

I.am trying to coax Greg to come to yours with audio technica art 1000 to compare to your atlas, shelter harmony, and colibri. Maybe he can get the GG with the 242.

 

[dctom]

Hey, that would be great.

 

[wisnon]

This was the root for my question. When I review gear I set the level to within 1db with pink noise and calibrated microphone into my Behringer DEQ 24/96. Otherwise you will subconsciously stack things in favor of the one that you want to sound better. This means making it a few db too high in level as a simple case. Since Michel let Ked control the testing it is not too surprising the outcome and the findings are suspect.

Now, I don't know which DAC is better, having not heard the Kassandra... and I still don't have a good idea because of the way the demo was conducted.

He already knows the tube characteristics he is looking for and it is not amplitude.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Ked swapped his tubes at least 5 times during the session.
(...)

Another aspect that should be considered - I have never found tube equipment that does not need at less between 1 and 2 hours warmup before sounding near its full capabilities. Even a two minute pause to change tubes seriously affects sound quality.