Was this daily email exchange with Herve’ recently ie after the turmoil and announcement?
Audio Note vs. Aries Cerat vs. darTZeel
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Was this daily email exchange with Herve’ recently ie after the turmoil and announcement?
Yes, the daily emails were all during the last three weeks, mostly from Herve’ and also a few from his staff who arranged shipping. They usually responded to my emails within several hours which is impressive given the time difference.
I have not heard and can't comment on Aires Cerat or Audinote comparisons, but I'm very happy with the darTZeel as an alternaitve to tube amps. Over the last 20 years, I started with a Manley preamp and GTA SE-40 monoblocks, then Supratek preamp and monoblocks, and the then deHavilland GM-70 SET monoblocks.
Corriente Cow(where Corinthian Leather comes from... Not really).
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Agree with your analysis. I think the assertion was likely directed to the typical audiophile whose audio purchases end up operating like a revolving door.
Curious if your Protos came in and how it's going?hopefully or somewhat close at least, I will need to give space for Protos though and once it's up I'm not going to move it again, ever(!).... 65 kg might be lightweight for some of you, but I'm just getting used to the idea of it.
It’s not a completely ridiculous statement. Even if you don’t plan to trade or sell your equipment frequently, at the end of ~20 years, the equipment should not be worthless. If there is a non-zero market value, the cost per hour of use is obviously a lot lower.
My Kondo Souga and M77 will probably be worth close to what I paid, if not more, when I end up selling them in ~20-30 years. So my amortized cost per day will be next to zero and perhaps negative.
Herve, through his mismanagement of the company — let’s be real here, I’m a CEO — if my company goes under it’s my fault,
Has killed the market value of the components. It’s irrelevant whether you intend to sell or not, the value of your DarTZeel components today is significantly lower than before the company went down.
The only hope is that when/if DarTZeel re-emerges, it will be with a more affordable line, which will re-establish the value of the “gold and red” components.
I also think he should create a Mk III upgrade for the individual components and sell that through to the existing customer base.
Without knowing the intricacies of what transpired, you are not right to make this statement or accusation. Companies go out of business for a multitude of reasons. One cannot necessarily say mismanagement was the cause in this particular case.
Companies only go out of business for ONE reason: running out of cash.
A CEO’s job is to ensure that doesn’t happen.
An apology to customers would have been nice and the right thing to do. That’s all.
I owned the Dart NHB-18NS mk i purchased preowned, after Naim, then BAT and ARC gear. Shame they seem to have gone west I really liked it and wanted to upgrade to the mark ii. I did order one (2017) and it was around 26kGBP with phono stage from cosmos audio in Spain cheaper than Acoustic sounds in the UK. In the end the order had to be cancelled - Dartzeel were unable to deal with new orders due to component shortages. The dealer lent me the Ypsilon combo of preamp and phono stage for comparison to my Dart. I ended up purchasing the Ypsilon pair for less than the cost of the new Dart.
In the UK the current NHB-18NS is almost 50k GBP, even allowing for inflation, that is a huge price jump. I think the distributor here has done Dartzeel no favours in charging so much. One dealer has a massive reduction on the NHB 18NS see below, does that indicate a 84% mark up?
www.kjwestone.co.uk
In the UK the current NHB-18NS is almost 50k GBP, even allowing for inflation, that is a huge price jump. I think the distributor here has done Dartzeel no favours in charging so much. One dealer has a massive reduction on the NHB 18NS see below, does that indicate a 84% mark up?
NHB-18NS Preamplifier | Dartzeel | KJ West One | Hifi Store
The Dartzeel-NHB-18NS is the most advanced preamplifier ever designed. High-end audio from Switzerland.
www.kjwestone.co.uk
still waiting here... hopefully soon now!
Flying out tomorrow heading north...
/ Marcus
Officially DarTZeel says they are still very much in business. Herve would probably upgrade the Mk 1 to Mk 2 now.I owned the Dart NHB-18NS mk i purchased preowned, after Naim, then BAT and ARC gear. Shame they seem to have gone west I really liked it and wanted to upgrade to the mark ii. I did order one (2017) and it was around 26kGBP with phono stage from cosmos audio in Spain cheaper than Acoustic sounds in the UK. In the end the order had to be cancelled - Dartzeel were unable to deal with new orders due to component shortages. The dealer lent me the Ypsilon combo of preamp and phono stage for comparison to my Dart. I ended up purchasing the Ypsilon pair for less than the cost of the new Dart.
In the UK the current NHB-18NS is almost 50k GBP, even allowing for inflation, that is a huge price jump. I think the distributor here has done Dartzeel no favours in charging so much. One dealer has a massive reduction on the NHB 18NS see below, does that indicate a 84% mark up?
NHB-18NS Preamplifier | Dartzeel | KJ West One | Hifi Store
The Dartzeel-NHB-18NS is the most advanced preamplifier ever designed. High-end audio from Switzerland.
He said he will make an announcement “soon” about a new, more accessible, product line.
I don’t know about the UK distributor, but the US distributor/dealer was charging considerably more than the price they should have been charging. Ultimately, DarTZeel gets paid in Swiss Francs. The US distributor was being “creative” with that exchange rate. It really did no one a service and probably contributed to the downfall.
Let’s hope DarTZeel pivots to a direct sale model with more realistic prices.
There are some good, competent, dealers but they are rare and even they don’t deserve ~50% margins, sorry. Especially when a component costs this much. You answer a few questions (which most dealers need to ask the manufacturer anyway) and get $25k as a ‘commission’?! Sorry, that needs to change.
I do believe that you need some more insight and real world experience to see the full picture.
Running a retail and/or distribution business depending on the setup involves negotiations, trade-ins, heavy investment in demo units, home loans, financial support, warranty + all of the overhead involved in running any business (rent, salaries, insurance, ...). Adding to this is the need of extensive PR and marketing activities throughout all channels - IRL and online. We did three shows last year (including our own - Take 5) + dedicated events in Sweden only.
If you manage to succeed, you're looking at a limited sales number on the higher level in a normal year on a small market such as Sweden (US and UK are vastly different though of course in terms of market size).
Fact is that most businesses within this space are working overtime to survive on the current market where few are truly flourishing.
/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se
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Running a business with full time employees has a big fixed cost factor and the cost of capital for investing into it is high and can eat into a business very very fast.
- 3-5 people, to start, 35K-75K salaries/bonus...plus benefits, employers tax, insurance, operating expenses, plus PR/marketing, travel,
-- That's without buying or committing to leasing hard equipment, tools, etc for manufacturing...and then there is the raw material purchases
- plus buying/sitting on 1-3 working samples that do not sell or sell for cost because they've been traveling around for demos for a year or more
- all of which also attracts a 20% cost of capital (compounding per year) if someone is taking the risk of investing into a new business.
- plus the return clock starts once the money is committed or invested...even if it takes 1-2 years to break even on the business itself...which means if 2 years to breakeven, you are 40% behind still (20% times 2 years, ignoring the compounding).
- And what is breakeven? Did you pay off the overhead? Or did you ALSO pay off all the equipment you just purchased as well?
- And if you get 10% return on year 3...you are still behind because you not only have 30% to go...but you might need working capital to fund materials purchases if your unit sales is increasing...and your distributors are delaying payments to you because they are being stretched to carry your equipment, demo it and waiting until their first sale...so you are at risk of having to carry them as well while they promote your equipment
I am certainly not in this particular business at all...but I respect deeply those who are...and I know it does add up...
I’ve got enough experience both running businesses (~25 years) and in this hobby (~35 years) to disagree.
A fixed fee for setup/installation and support makes sense I suppose (although I have no need for it - the manufacturer provides the best support).
It’s similar to a real estate agent: paying 5% for a multi-million dollar house doesn’t really make sense. I bought a lake house for a few million and the agent made $80K. He spent 2 days with me and a few phone calls and emails over a few months. Crazy.
A fixed fee for setup/installation and support makes sense I suppose (although I have no need for it - the manufacturer provides the best support).
It’s similar to a real estate agent: paying 5% for a multi-million dollar house doesn’t really make sense. I bought a lake house for a few million and the agent made $80K. He spent 2 days with me and a few phone calls and emails over a few months. Crazy.
Not sure about the retail model. My post was about starting up a manufacturing business where you are building equipment. The machinery you have to buy, the shed you have to rent, the staff you have to be ready to cover for 2-3 years of the start up phase without sufficient cash flow from sales to cover them all...and know you can cover them with cash in the bank in case sales are slow, etc. And if you raise the money from investors, they clip a 20% this is fraud on their investment every year and it compounds if the business cannot pay it so after 3 years their investment is expecting to earn another 65% or more.
I see, sorry. Yes, I agree. I’m all for a larger share of the selling price to go to the manufacturer. Look- it doesn’t make sense for the dealer/distributor to keep 50-60% of the selling price. They are not adding equal value to the manufacturer!
Investors take about 80% from my experience. 20% is more like a discount from the next financing round, or interest on a loan.
Investors take about 80% from my experience. 20% is more like a discount from the next financing round, or interest on a loan.
I think we are on a similar page on the manufacturing side...I dont have much insight into the distribution business.
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