Audio Note UK vs Audio Japan Sonic Differences
- Thread starter caesar
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So what are the data points - I live in Hong Kong - I see a lot of AN UK gear on the used market AND KKondo gear and Lampizator and Aries Cerat and Boulder and ARC and CH Precision AND Krell AND Levinson AND KR and everything else. That means that the people who bought said units in some fashion grew tired of it and moved on. Maybe they upgraded within the company brand - maybe they moved on to something else.
If you are trying to be objective - truly objective - and just look at total worldwide sales then I guess this would be the ultimate arbiter because you could then say - "people with deep enough pockets to buy $50k amplifiers" are likely to turn over many stones and try out the competition. Then you assess how many $50k amplifiers brand X sells worldwide per year vs brand Y.
As I am not American - I don't tend to measure quality by sales figures for audio because not everyone is exactly objective as it pertains to "just listening" and folks have various biases. For instance - I have seen a lot of Tesla owners with bumper stickers that say "We bought this car before we knew Elon was an ass" and a lot of people will not buy a product for religious or political reasons.
I had several guys on forums tell me that based purely on my posts they would never buy/or audition any Audio Note UK product. They made that decision without hearing any of it - just because they hated my guts because I dared to like the sound of it more than their McIntosh/Bryston/Krell etc. And of course, several death threats came my way as well. People sure do take this audio stuff seriously - lol.
How do we judge this stuff - I listen and I like AN UK better than Kondo - so what can you SAY to me to change what I heard? Vice Versa - there are no "words" that can change a first-hand experience.
Back to sales figures - okay one dealer sells more Kondo than AN UK - okay but what are all the circumstances of that? What about different markets - what about globally? How many $100k+ amplifiers does Kondo sell globally vs AN UK? Do you have numbers for that?
The AN UK dealer in Hong Kong noted that they sold 200 M6 preamps and also presold 200 Meishu Tonmeister integrated amplifiers (when I was there they had about 15 boxes in the waiting room by the secretary they had so many Meishus selling like hotcakes) - the M6 preamps sell for $20k to $45k depending on version and the Meishu Tonmeister is $19k to $25k+ depending on version. So they sold 400 units in one year just from these two units from one dealer. And we haven't gotten to the affordable gear like OTO and their power amps or the shit ton of Jinro and Ongaku they sell or the M10, M9, M8, M3, M2, M1s.
It would be nice to know what sort of sales high-end companies are producing. ARC went belly-up and that shocked me because I perceived them to be a kind of high-end juggernaut. But they were struggling.
Yes that's possibly happening with other established companies as well, we had Verity close, the Dartzeel controversy, could be others. So much for those who were mocking the small manufacturer. At least point to point tube electronics can be repaired by anybody, and drivers of a speaker can be replaced.
You make a good point. Kondo simply can’t produce a $2,500 amp; their approach to amplifier design is focused entirely on quality, with no shortcuts. They don’t know how to make it cheaply—they only know how to make it sound exceptional. While their approach might be debatable, the quality of their products isn’t. On the other hand, I’d be more hesitant to buy a $100,000 amplifier from a company that also makes $2,500 amps, as it’s harder to trust that they didn’t apply the same cost-saving measures to the high-end model. Especially when that brand has been famously accused of borrowing or even stealing design elements from Kondo. Which further raise questions for paying $100.000
Well, firstly Kondo circuit are not terribly unique or patented...they just execute at the highest possible level. Secondly, I don't believe that AN UK uses even remotely similar circuit or power supply designs. Thirdly, the top end AN UK products have very high end parts, particularly the interstage and output transformers (which when available for DIY were winning all kinds of transformer shootouts even against the likes of Tango and Tamura). I would say that top AN UK and Kondo both have stellar parts but the end result sounds somewhat different.
I am not taking sides with either manufacturer but I don't think AN UK products and Kondo products, past or present, are really all that similar other than (mostly) being single ended, although Kondo made/make some very very good PP triode amps and AN UK reserved this for their lowest end products. AN UK top products are interstage transformer coupled and Kondo I think is cap coupled cathode follower driver designs.
Mostly AN UK took the Audio Note name and maybe their very first products were very similar but even then I think not.
I won't comment on the pricing structure, people who can pay will try between them (or maybe the top Aries Cerat gear) and decide what they think sounds better.
You proved my prior point regarding Luxury goods and perception. If you sell a $2500 amp the amplifier can't possibly use the same high-quality parts as your $100k amp. And thus it can sully the "perception" of your brand standing. Similarly, if Rolls Royce put out a $30,000 Sedan people who buy the top Rolls Royce would question allowing the poor people into the club. Kondo doesn't do that - their amps start at over $30,000 - that's their entry-level. Perception is all that really matters in the Luxury world. I don't believe we live in a world where a company can't do more than one thing at a time that they can't build elite products as well as build good value products. Toyota Camry Hybrid is the most reliable car in the wolrd and offers exceptional value and they also make the Toyota Century which is above Lexus and considered one of the best (and certainly by far the most reliable) Luxury sedan in the world - in 20 years when your Maybach or Rolls Royce is in the shop needing a total rebuild your Century will just be warming up. They can play at both ends and be great at both ends.
How many people really look inside the amplifiers or DACS etc and actually know what they're looking at? Hell, most people buy cars and look under the hood just because it's the thing to do, but they don't actually know anything they're looking at in terms of knowing what a good design or a great part is. The Car Care Nut is great because when he reviews a car he tells you in layman's terms why a certain approach is going to break and how much it's going to cost you when it does.
Audio doesn't really have that other than some "anecdotal stories" on the net - brand X sells 400 amplifiers and 5 of them break down and the 5 owners go on forums complaining. Brand Y sells 5 amplifiers and none of them break down - "What a beacon of reliability!"
The reality is if something sells well and people think it's worth the money they'll buy them. So when you look at the Discontinued page at Kondo and the miniscule product line they offer - that tells a big story. Meanwhile AN UK still sells 2a3 amps and 45s and multiple versions of them year after year. Kondo dropped them all because people came they heard and they said no and bought something else.
Discontinued Products List | AUDIO NOTE
The well-done video on Luxury and Hype.
I just built a Kondo M7 phono clone for slightly less than HK$1200 worth of parts, all from Taobao. I guess I can put boutique "audiophile" components in, and I have a whole box full of these caps and resistors. But I have pulled most of them out of my amps and preamps because they are unreliable, go noisy and frankly don't sound good most of the time. They just cost a lot more than industrial components, but have no practical advantage. They do give consumers who don't know any better an aura of "high quality" though.You proved my prior point regarding Luxury goods and perception. If you sell a $2500 amp the amplifier can't possibly use the same high-quality parts as your $100k amp. And thus it can sully the "perception" of your brand standing. Similarly, if Rolls Royce put out a $30,000 Sedan people who buy the top Rolls Royce would question allowing the poor people into the club. Kondo doesn't do that - their amps start at over $30,000 - that's their entry-level. Perception is all that really matters in the Luxury world. I don't believe we live in a world where a company can't do more than one thing at a time that they can't build elite products as well as build good value products. Toyota Camry Hybrid is the most reliable car in the wolrd and offers exceptional value and they also make the Toyota Century which is above Lexus and considered one of the best (and certainly by far the most reliable) Luxury sedan in the world - in 20 years when your Maybach or Rolls Royce is in the shop needing a total rebuild your Century will just be warming up. They can play at both ends and be great at both ends.
How many people really look inside the amplifiers or DACS etc and actually know what they're looking at? Hell, most people buy cars and look under the hood just because it's the thing to do, but they don't actually know anything they're looking at in terms of knowing what a good design or a great part is. The Car Care Nut is great because when he reviews a car he tells you in layman's terms why a certain approach is going to break and how much it's going to cost you when it does.
Audio doesn't really have that other than some "anecdotal stories" on the net - brand X sells 400 amplifiers and 5 of them break down and the 5 owners go on forums complaining. Brand Y sells 5 amplifiers and none of them break down - "What a beacon of reliability!"
The reality is if something sells well and people think it's worth the money they'll buy them. So when you look at the Discontinued page at Kondo and the miniscule product line they offer - that tells a big story. Meanwhile AN UK still sells 2a3 amps and 45s and multiple versions of them year after year. Kondo dropped them all because people came they heard and they said no and bought something else.
Discontinued Products List | AUDIO NOTE
www.audionote.co.jp
The well-done video on Luxury and Hype.
You can’t compare the watch industry to high-end audio. Today, expensive watches are more like jewelry—stylish objects without practical function, given that everyone has an atomic clock in their smartphone. High-end audio, on the other hand, serves a real purpose, offering what many consider the best possible sound with no true alternative.You proved my prior point regarding Luxury goods and perception. If you sell a $2500 amp the amplifier can't possibly use the same high-quality parts as your $100k amp. And thus it can sully the "perception" of your brand standing. Similarly, if Rolls Royce put out a $30,000 Sedan people who buy the top Rolls Royce would question allowing the poor people into the club. Kondo doesn't do that - their amps start at over $30,000 - that's their entry-level. Perception is all that really matters in the Luxury world. I don't believe we live in a world where a company can't do more than one thing at a time that they can't build elite products as well as build good value products. Toyota Camry Hybrid is the most reliable car in the wolrd and offers exceptional value and they also make the Toyota Century which is above Lexus and considered one of the best (and certainly by far the most reliable) Luxury sedan in the world - in 20 years when your Maybach or Rolls Royce is in the shop needing a total rebuild your Century will just be warming up. They can play at both ends and be great at both ends.
How many people really look inside the amplifiers or DACS etc and actually know what they're looking at? Hell, most people buy cars and look under the hood just because it's the thing to do, but they don't actually know anything they're looking at in terms of knowing what a good design or a great part is. The Car Care Nut is great because when he reviews a car he tells you in layman's terms why a certain approach is going to break and how much it's going to cost you when it does.
Audio doesn't really have that other than some "anecdotal stories" on the net - brand X sells 400 amplifiers and 5 of them break down and the 5 owners go on forums complaining. Brand Y sells 5 amplifiers and none of them break down - "What a beacon of reliability!"
The reality is if something sells well and people think it's worth the money they'll buy them. So when you look at the Discontinued page at Kondo and the miniscule product line they offer - that tells a big story. Meanwhile AN UK still sells 2a3 amps and 45s and multiple versions of them year after year. Kondo dropped them all because people came they heard and they said no and bought something else.
Discontinued Products List | AUDIO NOTE
The well-done video on Luxury and Hype.
If you’re going to discuss high prices, start with the costly gear from Audio Note UK. Ex. top models of AN-E.
Really? Are there a lot of real M7s out there failing and getting noisy? Plenty of cap surveys online indicate the best ones do sound a lot better. Resistors and wire used too. I agree it makes your clone a lot cheaper. Btw. Did you compare your clone to a real M7 just to see how close it gets?
Watches all tell time - they have a practical function to watch aficionados who value a second hand "sweep" over quartz watches that jump from second to second. Some value the quality of the finish, and the quality of the intricate movements among other aspects of watches that include the "jewelry" aspect - but audio has the EXACT same quality and tube amps, like it or not, is the equivalent of the analog watch that doesn't strictly speaking tell "accurate time" the way a quartz watch does. Tubes = analog automatic watches and SS = Quartz "technically accurate" and all generally less interesting. Regardless the term Audio Jewelry exists for a reason.
AN UK is also in the luxury end of the market - earlier I noted that selling $2500 amplifiers can sully a brand's "Luxury Status" but AN UK, much to the chagrin of many, still can't keep up with all the backlog of all the orders for 5 and 6 figure products.
I have been on forums for many years and I understand the focus on the most expensive models. The M3 is the same amplifier design as the M5, M6 and M8 - the difference is solely parts quality. So someone may complain that the M6 is double the price of an M3 and the M8 is double again and adding the Sig version is double that. Unlike - pretty much everyone else - at least there is the M3 option that normal people can afford that still offers a healthy dose of the M6 and M8.
In an attempt to be objective this stuff with an "American Capitalist" hat on - The free market decides what is the best whether I like whatever it is the market has decided. Coke outsells Dr. Pepper, Mr, Pibb and A&W Rootbeer. I like all three more than Coke but whether I like it or not - coke is king. Michael Jackson was the king of pop - I can respect his talent but his voice was not my cup of tea. When I was a kid I loved The Outfield - "who the hell are they?"
SET amplifiers are a niche audiophile product in a niche industry where most people think Bose is the best. If it isn't sold at Best Buy 99% of the world has probably never heard of it.
What is fascinating really is that people who all agree that Single Ended topologies sound the best all already share a pretty similar ear in the sense that we largely concur that this stuff is above the likes of Bryston and that is already way above the likes of Bose or surround sound receivers at Best Buy. Then SET guys want to argue even more within a group they should be "friends with" in that most of the SET guys I know have "friendly preferences" for 2a3, 300B, 45, 211, 845.
But nope - let's all argue even more. So I go back to the "market" because the market decides what is good. There are plenty of speakers on the market that I do not like the sound of that have been selling for 30 years (Magnepan for a start). But they sell, and people like their take on the music reproduction. The same way people love Michael Jackson.
When someone buys an expensive version of something - whether it be the expensive version of an amp or speaker (or car) they are making a choice that suits them. Personally, if I were to buy a Ford Mustang I would absolutely want the V8 GT or higher - for me the point of a Mustang is to get the V8 sound not the 4-banger Ecoboost. But OTHER people are happy to own the "look" of the Mustang and don't care about sound or ultimate performance. Every Mazda Miata review pretty much all say "buy the manual" and don't get the automatic but the automatic sells 2-1 over the manual because, I suspect, most people like the look of it and are not planning to take it to the track or don't want the hassle of a manual (or don't know how to drive one).
I can't speak to Kondo but I can speak to the AN OTO amp that was designed by Guy Adams (Voyd Turntables) and the amp was and still is massively popular 32 years on. But when it first came out people loved it and badgered Audio Note to put out a higher-grade version with better transformers better cables in the SE Signature that more than doubles the price and another balls-to-the-wall Silver Signature variant. Enough people want it they'll make it. They can do that because almost everything is made to order anyway - people order OTOs with headphone outputs geared for headphones. And this with relatively affordable gear - I am not uber-rich but it is nice to know that I can order a "special" OTO just for me with what I want as connections or various upgrades. Not many companies allow that.
Sure there are the uber-rich audiophiles who go to AN UK and say - "I have this rare tube - I want you to design from the ground up an amplifier for it because there aren't any. AN UK's gives them an $800,000 price and they say okay. Then other rich guys hear about that - wait there is a new amp above Gaku On - they ring up suddenly they're selling a dozen of them. Now you are in a different luxury realm because they custom make it for the customer. It's not about going to store and buying "just another Kondo or AN UK Ongaku or a top Boulder or Gryphon that everyone has - not it's "build this for me" and you have exclusivity - you are now a unicorn - only you possess the "one ring" of audiophile Godliness. And that's sort of how the AN UK Legend amplifier is being marketed. The market decides and the market asks AN UK to make them near million-dollar amplifiers while many others have a long long long long list of "discontinued products." And when you used to sell a ton of products and now you only sell a few that looks to me like a company barely staying in business.
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