Aries Cerat, Lampizator, Audio Research, Analysis Omega, Rockports

[Audiophile Bill]

Another aspect that should be considered - I have never found tube equipment that does not need at less between 1 and 2 hours warmup before sounding near its full capabilities. Even a two minute pause to change tubes seriously affects sound quality.

This would bias this experience in favour of Aries since only the Lampi tubes are being rolled from what I read. The Aries had the bias changed on one occasion I believe. That said, you don't need long to gauge the substantial changes between the different tube types in a GG even of same type - i.e. rolling 45 or 300b.

I honestly think the level matching piece, whilst important for the sake of internal validity, if this were to be a scientific experiment (which it is not) is not paramount to establish tonal differences of tubes. Also since they were changing the level up and down for track to track by ear, then it has external validity since this is how we operate at home. The other confounder is actually that some tubes or even gear by their tonal signature and other facets almost encourage one to wick it up a bit more yet this could not be tolerated or enjoyed with the other component. This is quite an important confounder if you are only "reviewing" at a listening level matched all the time.

 

[bonzo75]

Another aspect that should be considered - I have never found tube equipment that does not need at less between 1 and 2 hours warmup before sounding near its full capabilities. Even a two minute pause to change tubes seriously affects sound quality.

The 5 times swap was to go back to the 45s to compare. Put 45 in on orchestral, replace with 242, play orchestral, then piano baritone after orchestral, check 45 on piano baritone.

Change Aries bias, repeat above compares with 45/242. We went back and forth between Aries and Lampi on tracks.

Swap speakers, then compares possible only between Aries and 45s

As for tube warm-up, the Lampi had no isolation, tubes were not warmed up, my Lampi and tubes have very few hours on them...hey I have no speakers to break it in. The first iteration received a warm up over 1 hour during lunch

A scientific experiment is not required. You are welcome to listen to it to understand why so that you can understand that my gear headed brain, which bought the Ayon Orthos XS in November, put it on sale in Jan, which needs to hear different gear all the time to enjoy the hobby, and which does change preferences as I discover products, is so steadfastly settled on the Lampi.

 

[bonzo75]

Bill can confirm on what his memories when we heard the 242 at his place -

But that discovery, along with:

1. The first time I heard stats and discovered the openness and transparency
2. First time I heard the timbre immediacy of horns (in that case the Anima)
3. First time I heard and appreciated proper analog
4. Henk's grands
5. Mike's system

Remains my most exciting realization on audio. Hyperbole police can confirm with Bill.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

3. First time I heard and appreciated proper analog

I still remember that day (for me) and surprisingly I'd been an audio enthusiast for a good 14 years before it happened! I was 21 when I first heard "proper" analogue!! Reason being is that whilst I was obviously brought up when the analogue era was in full swing (60s to early 70s), I never had access to any good quality gear myself, and what I did hear might have been reasonably good quality, but it was never setup properly. My music school, for instance, had reasonably good top-end Sansui and Pioneer hardware and decent KEF speakers, but none of it shone due to very poor setup indeed.

It thus might surprise (and disappoint many) that my first "eye opening" experience was on an extremely modest system - Rega turntable, Creek amplification and Royd Speakers. But that setup still stands out in my memory some 30 years after it happened - as if it were yesterday.

I would probably be disappointed by that setup now, but it nevertheless really showed me what analogue was capable of when attention to detail mattered above all else.

As yes, panel speakers was another big first for me too, though I remember hearing the original Acoustic Energy AE1 on the same day and thinking to myself, wow, a reasonably small stand mount that gets you 90% the way to what a top end electrostatic can manage. Both of these setups were playing large scale classical music at the time too. From memory one of the Chesky LPs - Pictures At An Exhibition I seem to recall.

 

[flyer]

Another aspect that should be considered - I have never found tube equipment that does not need at less between 1 and 2 hours warmup before sounding near its full capabilities. Even a two minute pause to change tubes seriously affects sound quality.

I of course don't dispute the fact that tubes need some warm-up, but mind you , the total session took about 6 hours. So, the swaps did not happen in a half an hour timeframe neither...

Anyway, the question one could ask is: why was all the swapping required in the first place ? (mind you, I don't question the positive elements of being able to do so (nor the negatives) )

I am very satisfied with my stock tubes and have no intent, nor feel any need and even less so now, to go beyond manufacturer proposed specs or tubes. Just a turn of two bias screws allows the Kassandra to at least match the now famous 242 in dynamics, in my opinion. I can't express my opinion on timbre or soundstage as I was (literally) not in a position to evaluate that properly. With the 45, even while sitting from the side, I heard the improvement of the Kassandra on those features, I admit it was harder to tell on the 242.

I know Ked thinks the 242 were still ahead, but I also know that I told him, when we reverted to the Kassandra, I felt the SPL was set lower. I didn't feel at the moment the comparison was done fairly but as I am not confrontational I did not want to push my point. Maybe I was naive in doing so and didn't see the harm at the moment (actually I still don't because we just had a good time together).

My experience at the very end, when I finally could sit in the middle and where I had a quite different conclusion from Ked's for the config that was playing at the moment, did and does make me question the exclamations made during the session, and eventually in the write-up. But I am very aware (maybe too?) that every person's expectations and experiences are different.

Also, as it is written elsewhere on the forum: you have dealers (like me) and owners, and it is questionable who is the most avid defender of his brand/purchase... it is both human and normal.

One thing is to do a simple comparison between pieces of equipment, something else is then to present the information emanating from that as being the one truth. I have had in the last 6 weeks a few people over to compare and opinions did not always converge but I respected that, because the guests and myself were on par about the controls. In this case the control was not on par, reason for putting some flags next to the write-up and its presented conclusions.

I have shown to be and still am enthusiastic about both Lampizator and the Kassandra but I have also shown and I still am dubious on the process that leads to the conclusions. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mind you, I did approve the write-up on zero-distortion.org before it got published. I did have remarks which Ked suggested I would put them in my comments which I now feel I did. Therefore, this is my last post on the subject as I have the feeling that everything that I can add or question, is done. If anything else I would be repeating myself.

 

[morricab]

This would bias this experience in favour of Aries since only the Lampi tubes are being rolled from what I read. The Aries had the bias changed on one occasion I believe. That said, you don't need long to gauge the substantial changes between the different tube types in a GG even of same type - i.e. rolling 45 or 300b.

I honestly think the level matching piece, whilst important for the sake of internal validity, if this were to be a scientific experiment (which it is not) is not paramount to establish tonal differences of tubes. Also since they were changing the level up and down for track to track by ear, then it has external validity since this is how we operate at home. The other confounder is actually that some tubes or even gear by their tonal signature and other facets almost encourage one to wick it up a bit more yet this could not be tolerated or enjoyed with the other component. This is quite an important confounder if you are only "reviewing" at a listening level matched all the time.

Matching volume level, while not critical to hearing differences is important in confirming those differences are not due solely to one piece of gear being played at higher SPL than the other. It has been shown that something louder is often perceived as "better". This is a fact of human psychology.

Of course higher or lower levels should be explored but again matching the level. No one said it is easy to do a review correctly...

 

[flyer]

Oh, and sorry If I act against my own commitment , but forgot to mention that I do thank Ked for having taken the effort to come to Belgium, for the kind compliments he has given and for his enthusiasm on the subject!

I would not want anyone to think otherwise as the prior was and is purely about a process-thing, the fact that I am a business consultant probably makes me more sensitive to that

 

[bonzo75]

Lampi has no stock tubes. That is like selling a TT with a stock cartridge. I could have bought just one but I always like to check with the 45s and take out the 242 only if required. This was the first dac they were.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The 5 times swap was to go back to the 45s to compare. Put 45 in on orchestral, replace with 242, play orchestral, then piano baritone after orchestral, check 45 on piano baritone.

Change Aries bias, repeat above compares with 45/242. We went back and forth between Aries and Lampi on tracks.

Swap speakers, then compares possible only between Aries and 45s

As for tube warm-up, the Lampi had no isolation, tubes were not warmed up, my Lampi and tubes have very few hours on them...hey I have no speakers to break it in. The first iteration received a warm up over 1 hour during lunch

A scientific experiment is not required. You are welcome to listen to it to understand why so that you can understand that my gear headed brain, which bought the Ayon Orthos XS in November, put it on sale in Jan, which needs to hear different gear all the time to enjoy the hobby, and which does change preferences as I discover products, is so steadfastly settled on the Lampi.

my experience swapping the 242's with other tubes on the GG in short intervals is that the essence of the tubes still comes through. of course, all the tubes sill benefit from a few hours warm up, but it does not appreciably change the delta's involved.

and the 242's are superior to any others I've tried in my system; which includes the Elrog's, Psvane WE 300b replicas, the Psvane WE 101d replicas, and a number of vintage 45's. this is using the Tak 274b recti.

 

[853guy]

Lampi has no stock tubes. That is like selling a TT with a stock cartridge. I could have bought just one but I always like to check with the 45s and take out the 242 only if required. This was the first dac they were.

Hey Bonzo,

Wouldn't you consider a turntable can perform its basic function irrespective of cartridge given a cart's performance relies much more upon the turntable it's affixed to than the turntable's performance does the cart? In that regard, I personally consider a tube's ultimate performance is much more dependent on the circuitry it's connected to than the circuit's performance does on the tube.

Blah blah blah. Have a great weekend.

853guy

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Matching volume level, while not critical to hearing differences is important in confirming those differences are not due solely to one piece of gear being played at higher SPL than the other. It has been shown that something louder is often perceived as "better". This is a fact of human psychology.

Of course higher or lower levels should be explored but again matching the level. No one said it is easy to do a review correctly...

Hey Brad. I don't disagree with you at all and you make an important point.

That said and I really think this next point is important:

>> I honestly believe that certain components do "ask" the user to change the level. The optimised level for one component isn't necessarily the same as another and for this reason I think reviewing should also incorporate this in the methodology.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Exactly Ked. This is the r'aison d'etre of the Lampi!! It is not designed as a dac to come with one tube type and that is it.

I know I have used the cartridge analogy but I will again because I feel it is similar.

For those who don't own the GG, I think this is why many live the product as the flexibility really does allow you to tune to your hearts desires and really 300b sound nothing like 242 or indeed 101d. This is the beauty - pick your poison

 

[wisnon]

Exactly Ked. This is the r'aison d'etre of the Lampi!! It is not designed as a dac to come with one tube type and that is it.

I know I have used the cartridge analogy but I will again because I feel it is similar.

For those who don't own the GG, I think this is why many live the product as the flexibility really does allow you to tune to your hearts desires and really 300b sound nothing like 242 or indeed 101d. This is the beauty - pick your poison

Or switch for different musical genres!

 

[microstrip]

Matching volume level, while not critical to hearing differences is important in confirming those differences are not due solely to one piece of gear being played at higher SPL than the other. It has been shown that something louder is often perceived as "better". This is a fact of human psychology.

Of course higher or lower levels should be explored but again matching the level. No one said it is easy to do a review correctly...

It is one of the reasons I consider that reviews are of very limited value for consumers. Reviewers usually do not address the level at which they listen, the room dimensions, speaker placement and listening distance. One great aspect of WBF is that slowly we are getting each other preferences and some details about the listening opinions.

 

[morricab]

my experience swapping the 242's with other tubes on the GG in short intervals is that the essence of the tubes still comes through. of course, all the tubes sill benefit from a few hours warm up, but it does not appreciably change the delta's involved.

and the 242's are superior to any others I've tried in my system; which includes the Elrog's, Psvane WE 300b replicas, the Psvane WE 101d replicas, and a number of vintage 45's. this is using the Tak 274b recti.

No one doubts that a tube change makes sonic differences.

What concerns me about rolling different types of tubes is how is this done successfully without adjusting bias current and other operational parameters. It means that some tube types will not operating optimally because they are not on the most linear part of their curve. This, IMO, will significantly affect the tube choice that works best...more so than the qualities of the tube per se. A circuit optimized for one tube type is probably able to deliver better sound, all things being equal.

 

[morricab]

It is one of the reasons I consider that reviews are of very limited value for consumers. Reviewers usually do not address the level at which they listen, the room dimensions, speaker placement and listening distance. One great aspect of WBF is that slowly we are getting each other preferences and some details about the listening opinions.

It is one thing I try to do to control bias.

 

[microstrip]

(...) What concerns me about rolling different types of tubes is how is this done successfully without adjusting bias current and other operational parameters. It means that some tube types will not operating optimally because they are not on the most linear part of their curve. This, IMO, will significantly affect the tube choice that works best...more so than the qualities of the tube per se. A circuit optimized for one tube type is probably able to deliver better sound, all things being equal.

IMHO it is part of the poison, as referred before. When you operate the tube in different zones of operation sound will change significantly. But we are speculating - we do not have technical details concerning the GG circuits.

However I share your concerns - when I see that gain varies by many dB just swapping tubes, probably distortion factors will change significantly in circuits with no feedback.

 

[bonzo75]

It is one of the reasons I consider that reviews are of very limited value for consumers. Reviewers usually do not address the level at which they listen, the room dimensions, speaker placement and listening distance. One great aspect of WBF is that slowly we are getting each other preferences and some details about the listening opinions.

Nothing is as valuable as own listening.

 

[bonzo75]

Hey Bonzo,

Wouldn't you consider a turntable can perform its basic function irrespective of cartridge given a cart's performance relies much more upon the turntable it's affixed to than the turntable's performance does the cart? In that regard, I personally consider a tube's ultimate performance is much more dependent on the circuitry it's connected to than the circuit's performance does on the tube.

Blah blah blah. Have a great weekend.

853guy

Yes I agree a tube's ultimate performance is dependent upon the circuitry. But at a general level, I have to yet hear a 300b I really like. And there are people who will have strong 211/845 experiences. I personally haven't run much compares there. I recently heard EL84 amps that had great fast tuneful strings and mids and were weaker in the bass, online research seemed to suggest similar.

 

[bonzo75]

IMHO it is part of the poison, as referred before. When you operate the tube in different zones of operation sound will change significantly. But we are speculating - we do not have technical details concerning the GG circuits.

However I share your concerns - when I see that gain varies by many dB just swapping tubes, probably distortion factors will change significantly in circuits with no feedback.

Don't forget, mine is optimized for 242. But Lampi circuit is flexible and many tube amp designers I discussed with scratch their head on how does the circuit allow these various tubes. But well they never heard it