ATC VS WILSON SASHA

[Brad Lunde]

This white paper is 26 years old and has very rudimentary measurements. There must be some independent data on the subject? For such an iconic brand, with such explicit claims, I am surprised I can't find any.

I have to say that test methods and data are very difficult to make universal and transferrable. I know many live by measurements, but ATC knows them too and knows how results can be flawed by process, environment or set up and yield conclusions that are not accurate. A non calibrated mic for example, would not reveal itself in the test. A flawed acoustic space would not reveal itself either. 20-20K measurement means nothing without the variation limits: +/- 10dB, +/- 6dB or +/- 2dB are all dramatically different tests in terms of value to the user. +/- 2dB can reveal some good info, but you still don’t know about the space or how the speaker was tested.

I remember the first time I saw a non smoothed HF driver response curve while at JBL. It was awful and my instant reaction was “ something is wrong”. Yet, the engineer explained probably for the 20th time today, this is the way they REALLY are and there was no error. A smart person not familiar with the test could make an incorrect assumption that this driver was not good compared to others because they did not know all the comparison driver tests were smoothed. Microphones are similar, the true response curve at +/- 1dB is not pretty at all! It looks all over the place. So manufacturers don’t print that because no one would buy the mic based on this +/- 1dB test. Make it +/- 6dB it looks a lot better, and in fact this has become “usable limit” in many live sound speaker tests. +/- 6dB also equals a 12dB swing at times, something very significant that you would easily hear. If the variation is not printed, it is NOT easy for the average buyer or user to recognize 20-20K does not compare to 20- 20K +/- 2dB in any way. You spend a lot of time trying to figure out why there is a 20dB null somewhere when this is normal, and the max variation on +/- 2dB would be only 4dB.

At TransAudio/Lone Mountain we use our AP 515X with all the acoustical software and a calibrated mic constantly at work to calibrate, measure and test ATC’s in the diagnose and repair or upgrade process. While we understand our measurements, I would not print them or rely on them as “proof” of specific virtue because our space has some acoustic anomalies in the LF band. One could get the idea from the tests its revealing a product flaw when in reality its the space or the mic or ?.

So that being said as background of why you don’t see more tests, what test do you want to see? BTW, the 26 year old white paper is still valid as drivers mentioned are still in production. The principles discussed are all still current.
Brad

 

[Thieliste]

If there is one ATC model that i would really want to audition it is the SCM150 LE.

SCM150ASLT LE | ATC Loudspeakers

atcloudspeakers.co.uk

Only 22 pairs available and most likely sold out.
I know one dealer in my country that has them, i will try to audition them at some point.
This is end game ATC.

 

[Lxgreen]

thanks Brad for your thoughtful, educational and enlightening responses. It seems like you are the only one providing real Experience and knowledge about the latest ATC line of speakers. I get it that audiophiles like to tout their own equipment as the best and many critical of the line have never even listened to ATCs or only listened to an old model or listened to them in less than optimal rooms. before buying my ATCs I listened to a number of speakers in a variety of professional show rooms at dealers. I actually auditioned the Wilsons. They are obviously wonderful speakers but the room I heard them in didn’t do them justice. I particularly like the quote about studio speakers are made to sound bad. Sorry, I can’t help laughing at that one. So I appreciate you keeping us grounded with honest and well informed information.

 

[Hear Here]

I particularly like the quote about studio speakers are made to sound bad. Sorry, I can’t help laughing at that one. So I appreciate you keeping us grounded with honest and well informed information.

I think you may have misinterpreted that quote which came originally from a professional audio equipment reviewer.

Truth is that mastering suites where studio or concert hall recordings are processed before masters are produced and sent to CD pressers and streaming services need speakers that will emphasise errors or other features that the engineer will need to work on so the eventual sound makes ideal listening. For this he won't want a speaker that will enthral him with the sense of pleasure that we, as home listeners crave. So perhaps these speakers are designed to find fault rather than designed to sound bad. At home we still don't want this - or at least I didn't enjoy my ATC 50 Actives because they lacked the excitement and tingle factor that perhaps the best but possibly less accurate audiophile speakers offer. And I certainly don't want my attention drawn to faults that the sloppy engineer may not have been able to resolve.

 

[Lxgreen]

I think you may have misinterpreted that quote which came originally from a professional audio equipment reviewer.

Truth is that mastering suites where studio or concert hall recordings are processed before masters are produced and sent to CD pressers and streaming services need speakers that will emphasise errors or other features that the engineer will need to work on so the eventual sound makes ideal listening. For this he won't want a speaker that will enthral him with the sense of pleasure that we, as home listeners crave. So perhaps these speakers are designed to find fault rather than designed to sound bad. At home we still don't want this - or at least I didn't enjoy my ATC 50 Actives because they lacked the excitement and tingle factor that perhaps the best but possibly less accurate audiophile speakers offer. And I certainly don't want my attention drawn to faults that the sloppy engineer may not have been able to resolve.

That’s just as funny. I really miss the “tingle factor”

 

[Muser]

I think you may have misinterpreted that quote which came originally from a professional audio equipment reviewer.

Truth is that mastering suites where studio or concert hall recordings are processed before masters are produced and sent to CD pressers and streaming services need speakers that will emphasise errors or other features that the engineer will need to work on so the eventual sound makes ideal listening.

Hear Here . . . No one needs a speaker that emphasizes errors, just one that shows distortion, if it's there.I'm not going to defend ATC from people that don't like them - no point.

There are probably more refined speakers in the world than ATC, but that's different than saying ATC "emphasise errors." A colored speaker/system will obscure detail letting noise (not signal) through.

If you check out artists with a reputation for very good sound, many are mastered on ATC speakers. http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/client-list-pro/ That suggests to me that ATC can do a very good job.

I've either owned or spent extended time (months) with virtually all of ATC's line, passive and powered from 7s up to 100s. I've heard them sound bad, good and sublime. When they sounded "bad" it was a bad sounding source or other product in the line, in my experience. Those same speaker models could be made to sound very good by changing software or surrounding hardware. If you don't play around with the ancillaries you won't know. While ATC's preamps can be very good, I have preferred other brands of preamps for what I want to hear from the speakers.

Larry

 

[Hear Here]

> If you check out artists with a reputation for very good sound, many are mastered on ATC speakers. That suggests to me that ATC can do a very good job.

I think that's exactly the point being made by the reviewer whose comment I quoted. ATCs and other studio speakers are second to none for what they are designed for - mastering. The engineer has the ideal tool for the job of identifying areas where he can cast his magic. Although many audiophiles love their ATCs, their main intent is to produce the ideal mastering speaker and not the ideal domestic speaker.

Likewise, I'm certain that no mastering suite has speakers by Avantgarde or Magico or Wilson for that matter. These are designed primarily for their owners to enjoy the finished product that the artist and engineer have created.

I'm not supporting this view except to say that my own ATC 50s were a disappointment to me.

 

[Bobvin]

If you have sasha v1, an upgrade to any later sasha ought to be a consideration... I had v1 and found the titanium inverted dome tweeter could at times be ‘hot’ and make brass occasionally too bright and biting. The soft silk dome in later models a significant improvement while keeping other wilson qualities.

 

[Brad Lunde]

If there is one ATC model that i would really want to audition it is the SCM150 LE.

SCM150ASLT LE | ATC Loudspeakers

atcloudspeakers.co.uk

Only 22 pairs available and most likely sold out.
I know one dealer in my country that has them, i will try to audition them at some point.
This is end game ATC.

Yes, this is the SCM150 but with the fully discrete P6 amp designed for the EL150- which has the same driver set (although the EL150 predated the new ATC in house tweeter). SO a 150LE would sound extremely close to an SE150- but there would be differences (mostly due to speaker cable on the LE vs the extremely short cable within the SE150). Same amp topology.

Brad

 

[Brad Lunde]

thanks Brad for your thoughtful, educational and enlightening responses. It seems like you are the only one providing real Experience and knowledge about the latest ATC line of speakers. I get it that audiophiles like to tout their own equipment as the best and many critical of the line have never even listened to ATCs or only listened to an old model or listened to them in less than optimal rooms. before buying my ATCs I listened to a number of speakers in a variety of professional show rooms at dealers. I actually auditioned the Wilsons. They are obviously wonderful speakers but the room I heard them in didn’t do them justice. I particularly like the quote about studio speakers are made to sound bad. Sorry, I can’t help laughing at that one. So I appreciate you keeping us grounded with honest and well informed information.

You are very welcome LX Green!
Brad
TransAudio/LMA/ATC Importer to the US

 

[Thieliste]

Yes, this is the SCM150 but with the fully discrete P6 amp designed for the EL150- which has the same driver set (although the EL150 predated the new ATC in house tweeter). SO a 150LE would sound extremely close to an SE150- but there would be differences (mostly due to speaker cable on the LE vs the extremely short cable within the SE150). Same amp topology.

Brad

Do you think it's possible to build a reference system with the 150SE ?
Could this compete with 100k passive speakers or not even close ?

With this king of active speakers you could just get an MSB Select 2 dual powerbases and be done.

 

[Brad Lunde]

There is much talk - even in studio circles- of speakers that "show flaws" vs "emphasize flaws" vs cover them up. The whole point of a loudspeaker from Atc's perspective is to reveal the source- whatever that may be. ATC's are brutal on gear upstream and will reveal all the problems in your chain. The reason people like Ryan Ulyate and others like him have depended on ATC for artists like Tom Petty for years is that very revelation-the artist and his helpers want a error free product. So if you hook up a pair of ATCs and say "yuck", the idea is you better figure out why because it is NOT your speakers.

So translating this to home, the same thing is true: if you want to hear the enormous detail within MJ's Thriller, you have to have a chain that reveals ALL of that stuff. While they did an incredible job with that record, if you listen to Genesis early records you realize they sound positively awful. I love Genesis music but they way the early records sound sucks on any speaker. So the issue is you can't have both. The very feature that reveals all the details within Thriller makes Selling England By The Pound sound bad. Depending on which direction you approach it, If you think Genesis records sound amazing, you likely wont be a hyper detail speaker fan. If you play Thriller on that same "Genesis friendly" playback rig, it will sound awful and way weird. This is the trade off in audio.

When I listen to Stevie Rays' Tin Pan Alley live recording, it sounds fantastic! I hear room, all the detail of his guitar, I can even hear his singing is on a limited response dynamic mic vs the instruments which are wide band and were likely recorded off the mix console. His voice sounds "muffled" or rolled off with no bass compared to the sound of the guitar and bass- but its all cool even with those raw moments. Obviously you need a revealing system to hear that. But if you don't hear that, you remain unaware of those flaws, is it "better"?

Brad

 

[Brad Lunde]

Do you think it's possible to build a reference system with the 150SE ?
Could this compete with 100k passive speakers or not even close ?

With this king of active speakers you could just get an MSB Select 2 dual powerbases and be done.

In a large enough good sounding room, sure you could!
Brad

 

[Lxgreen]

In a large enough good sounding room, sure you could!
Brad

Here is a nice review of ATC active 50 from last year

ATC SCM50 ASLT Loudspeaker - The Absolute Sound

ATC SCM50 ASLT Loudspeaker -

www.theabsolutesound.com

 

[Lxgreen]

Here is a nice review of ATC active 50 from last year

ATC SCM50 ASLT Loudspeaker - The Absolute Sound

ATC SCM50 ASLT Loudspeaker -

www.theabsolutesound.com

Brad, i have a question for you. I bought my ATC 50s from my dealer‘s demo, Nyal Mellor at Acoustic Frontiers. He had ordered them semi custom so it has the upgraded amps and the plexiglass base. Can you tell me what exactly is the difference berwe the standard and upgrade (anniversary?) amps.
thanks. (BTW I purchased your review model C6CA center channel Speaker, also through Nyal. Other than being the size of a refrigerator, it is an incredible speaker)

 

[Thieliste]

Since i'm not familiar with ATC house sound i will go at my dealer's to make a shootout between the SCM100 ASLT and the SCM150 ASLT LE.
We'll see if i'm blown away or not.

 

[Brad Lunde]

Brad, i have a question for you. I bought my ATC 50s from my dealer‘s demo, Nyal Mellor at Acoustic Frontiers. He had ordered them semi custom so it has the upgraded amps and the plexiglass base. Can you tell me what exactly is the difference berwe the standard and upgrade (anniversary?) amps.
thanks. (BTW I purchased your review model C6CA center channel Speaker, also through Nyal. Other than being the size of a refrigerator, it is an incredible speaker)

Anniversary was the predecessor to the SE models. Anniversary used a custom discrete amp pack and a few improvements to the cabinet like upgraded veneers, different finish to the amp pack metalwork and acrylic bases. Anniversary is no longer made, I think yours was the last units we had made for the states. The difference is the Anniversary amps were fully discrete (like the 150LE and the 50SE, 100SE and 150SE) and the standard amp (active amp packs and stand alone P1, P2) are not fully discrete.
Brad

 

[Thieliste]

I spoke to Richard Newman from ATC and he told me there isn't much difference in sound quality between the 150SE and the 150LE.

 

[jackelsson]

Can you tell me what exactly is the difference berwe the standard and upgrade (anniversary?) amps.

A picture might be worth a thousand words here. The first picture below is the standard "Amp Pack" with the circuitry designed with op amps. The second picture is the fully discrete "Anniversary" amp. The "Anniversary" amp also doesn't have the one single power transformer on the main amp chassis but instead two separate transformers far away from the electronics on the very bottom of the cabinet.

Incidentally the "Anniversary" amp had been sold here in Germany under the name "Finest Fidelity" (FF). This was basically a small batch run of about a dozen or so pairs of 50/100/150, made for the German importer some years ago, which had the "Anniversary" amp in a standard cabinet. It was tested all over the hifi press back then and got rave reviews. Since a short while I'm the happy owner of an SCM150 ASLT "FF", probably one of only very few made. I consider myself very lucky seen that today the only way to to get these electronics are the "SE" models.





This is the outside of the "Anniversary" amp with a kind of titanium colour compared to the black standard "Amp Pack" and with the power inlet and switch not on the main chassis but on a separate panel further down below near to the transformers.

 

[jackelsson]

Here is a link to a review from 2005 of the SCM50 Anniversary:

http://studio-hifi.com/images/SCM50REVIEW2.pdf