Do you use your 150s in a large room ? or could a medium size room with good room treatment be ok ?
ATC VS WILSON SASHA
- Thread starter alfa100
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That was a wonderful explanation with pictures! Thanks. Can I ask you what cables you use with the speakers? Did you find much difference between cables? Thanks
For what it's worth, when I bought my ATC Active 50s direct from ATC in about 2000. they said they used standard balanced microphone cables with all their installations and in fact gave me their demo room cables - I still have them - Belden Shielded 2092.
That was some interesting info you posted Jackelsson! I was aware of the German importer doing the limited edition discrete amps, I was attempting to do the same thing when I first took over hi fi in the US-but not enough demand to make it work. I sold only a few standard cabs with Discrete amp packs
For the 150LE speakers, they use a 12 gauge multicore cable- remember its a three way speaker cable between the P6 and the 150. Since the P6 amp is central to the two 150LE/s, you'd need balanced [mic/line] cable to get to the amp input from your source.
Brad
For the 150LE speakers, they use a 12 gauge multicore cable- remember its a three way speaker cable between the P6 and the 150. Since the P6 amp is central to the two 150LE/s, you'd need balanced [mic/line] cable to get to the amp input from your source.
Brad
Well, what do you consider a large room?
Mine is 28 sqm (300 sqft.) so I think it's really more of a medium sized room, if at all. But since it is used exclusively for listening purposes and has quite a bit of acoustical treatment I personally think that it is ok even with a large speaker like the SCM150.
My other speakers, which I already had for the past six years, are a pair of Geithain RL 901K. They have a similar sized bass chassis as the SCM150 and work like a charm in this room. The Geithain have a cardoid bass response which helps quite a bit with getting a grip on the bass modes. Still, also the SCM150 work quite well in my room without this feature.
It might help though that the house is 120 years old and that these old walls and wooden floors suck up quite a bit of the bass energy. Might be a rather different story for both speakers, ATC as well as Geithain, in a concrete room of similar size.
Also, mind you that since this room is exclusively used for music I'm able to place the speakers ca. 2,5m in front of the front wall with me sitting in an equilateral triangle of about 2,3m in front of the speakers. This again helps the bass quite a bit, but someone in favour of a more distant musical experience - like looking onto a stage from mid-audience - might not like the rather enveloping sound that results from my speaker placement.
PS: obviously there's normally only one pair of speakers in the room at a time, the photo is just for show...
Personally - and still to my amazement - I find bigger sonic differences in power cables then in interconnect cables. But this might be due to the fact that my system is all balanced XLR and might be different with unbalanced cables.
Still, in my experience it should be well possible to hear a sonic difference between a standard mic cable and something more upmarket.
My power cables are a set of Furutech DPS 4.1 with Furutech FI-50 NCF connectors and the XLR cables connecting the Pass XP-30 with the speakers are from MuSiGo, a small German manufacturer that's probably not known outside of the country.
Brad, I believe that this was the case here in Germany as well. I'm quite sure that if a real demand would have come up more than just the small production run would have been made. Active speakers are not very easy to sell to the hifi community...
On a different note: how would you describe the sonic difference between the SCM150 and the SCM300? Just more headroom or is there also somewhat of a sonic difference like you find it in, say, SCM25 vs. SCM150?
Swen
It is likely just the cable difference. Both use the same driver set and same power amps (although a different lay out).
Brad
There are two different 300s: one designed for max SPL and an AUDAX tweeter for in wall use in studios; the other is designed for highest SPL while still maintaining ATC level fidelity (the home tower 300 which uses the ATC "S" tweeter). The pro one plays louder, to 119dB SPL or so continuous. I would never want to be in that room when that was happening and neither would an engineer!
I would prefer to listen to a 150, as it is easier to integrate into a realistic "home" space. The 150 is ATC's best sounding speaker IMHO, in standard amp pack form (SCM 150ASL), or in discrete amp form (SE150 or the limited run 150LE).
Brad
28 sqm is pretty small size room for SCM150, usually this model is recommended for 50-60 sqm rooms but if you have good room treatment that's probably ok.Well, what do you consider a large room?
Mine is 28 sqm (300 sqft.) so I think it's really more of a medium sized room, if at all. But since it is used exclusively for listening purposes and has quite a bit of acoustical treatment I personally think that it is ok even with a large speaker like the SCM150.
My other speakers, which I already had for the past six years, are a pair of Geithain RL 901K. They have a similar sized bass chassis as the SCM150 and work like a charm in this room. The Geithain have a cardoid bass response which helps quite a bit with getting a grip on the bass modes. Still, also the SCM150 work quite well in my room without this feature.
It might help though that the house is 120 years old and that these old walls and wooden floors suck up quite a bit of the bass energy. Might be a rather different story for both speakers, ATC as well as Geithain, in a concrete room of similar size.
Also, mind you that since this room is exclusively used for music I'm able to place the speakers ca. 2,5m in front of the front wall with me sitting in an equilateral triangle of about 2,3m in front of the speakers. This again helps the bass quite a bit, but someone in favour of a more distant musical experience - like looking onto a stage from mid-audience - might not like the rather enveloping sound that results from my speaker placement.
View attachment 72561
PS: obviously there's normally only one pair of speakers in the room at a time, the photo is just for show...
If i do consider the 150SE or LE in the future i will have to build a dedicated listening room, there's no way this can go in the linving room.
The only difference between the 50/100/150 is LF driver size (so how deep the bass) and so how loud it will play. They are 9 inch, 12 inch and 15 inch SL drivers. For me, a 50 tower perfectly fits a living room and has plenty of low end. The 50SE would be about as good a loudspeaker as I could imagine needing for my home and ATC does not make anything better other than the large versions. Above 380Hz (woofer crossover point on 50/100/150), it is identical to the larger 100 and 150. An active pair of speakers gives me a big opportunity to mess around with preamps, cables, turntables, streamers, DACs, etc. Since the distortion is near vanishing point and phase is so linear, I find it easier to hear differences in anything you put in front of it. What was a small difference on a passive becomes a large difference in active.
Brad
Years ago I did a review comparing ATC actives vs passives; the actives were clearly better to me. Soundstaging depth among other things. A reason for that is that the actives are phase aligned where the passives are not. Have a had a pair of Active 20s for years in a secondary system that I had a guy who does Steinway pianos refinish, pretty nice I think
Anyway, I think on the subject of harshness, etc, three things:
- The tweeters have gotten much better
- ATCs really benefit from some first reflection absorption as most have a very shallow or no waveguide on the tweeter to control directivity.
- Harshness and 'in your face' have gotten way oversold in the audiophile world to where manufacturers even dull stuff down so as not to offend. Neil Young's guitar is often anything but smooth. To me, some speakers that have immediacy and engagement, such as some ATC's get labeled as 'in your face'. I'll take that over a lot of the snoozers out there anytime which are 'refined' to the point of music being DOA.
That all said, I like Wilson's too, but hard to claim that ATCs aren't honest transducers IMO.
Anyway, I think on the subject of harshness, etc, three things:
- The tweeters have gotten much better
- ATCs really benefit from some first reflection absorption as most have a very shallow or no waveguide on the tweeter to control directivity.
- Harshness and 'in your face' have gotten way oversold in the audiophile world to where manufacturers even dull stuff down so as not to offend. Neil Young's guitar is often anything but smooth. To me, some speakers that have immediacy and engagement, such as some ATC's get labeled as 'in your face'. I'll take that over a lot of the snoozers out there anytime which are 'refined' to the point of music being DOA.
That all said, I like Wilson's too, but hard to claim that ATCs aren't honest transducers IMO.
Attachments
With SCM150LE i would put a full stack of Totaldac flagship front end and Ansuz DTC cabling.
That's the rig i would build with this ATC top of the line speaker.
This is such an important point!!
Live music can sound rather aggressive and hard sometimes. I remember an interview with a representative or even designer of ATC in the early Nineties, and when asked about the then relatively new digital medium and the to many uncomfortable hardness of sound from it, he replied in exasperation: "But live music does sound hard!" (I wish I could find that quote on the web for confirmation, but I am quite confident that I got it more or less right.)
Of course, there is a difference between the natural ability of digital to portray hardness of musical sound (something that comes less natural to vinyl, even though it can be done) and artificial digital harshness that was a problem especially in those more early days of digital -- a complicated subject for sure. Regardless, the gist of the observation and argument about hardness of live sounds stands.
A too 'polished' sound that I have heard from many systems has always been a major complaint of mine, and your statement of "'refined' to the point of music being DOA" is such a well worded one!
The trick is to get rid of all kinds of distortions in a system (their sources can be many) that exaggerate hardness into harshness, while keeping the good stuff, natural hardness of sound, yet also at the same time to maximize the system's ability to portray natural softness of some live sounds. The trick is to still have punchy and even piercing trumpets where needed, raspy and sometimes appropriately obnoxious saxophones (all dynamically reproduced), and yet on the other hand solo violins that can sound smooth and even sweet, do not sound screechy and hard in an exaggerated fashion (even though certainly violins can have rough transients and screech sometimes), and that don't "beam" in the high frequencies. I have worked on getting these contrasts right for a long time in my system, with important improvements lately, and while the result is still not perfect, it is quite a bit better than I mostly hear elsewhere. It just makes the music sound more real.
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I have described my experience of my Active 50s about 20 years ago as "in yer face" but not in the way you describe. You and others fear that this criticisn would lead to "dull" speakers. No, as far as I was concerned, there's no limit to the lifelike and excitement factors in listening to music and the ATC were'nt criticised for that reason. It was just the "closeness" of the sound that meant I wanted to place the speakers another 20 feet away from my listening position. This was not possible of course, but it led to me quickly selling them and moving on to Avantgardes - a speaker that no one could ever describe as "dull"!
We read about near-field speakers as being suitable for close listening in OB vans, for PCs, etc. I guess most domestic speakers could be best described as mid-field where 8 to 12 feet distance between speaker and listener is most likely. Perhaps those big ATCs should be described as far-field where they sound best at a greater distance than is possible in most homes and sound "in yer face" when used at 8 ft listening distance. I'm sure ATC have improved their designs over the last 20 years and newer 50s are more sympathetic to closer distances, but I'd certainly recommend a home demo before parting with your cash.
I cannot relate to your experience.
I used multiple ATC models in various situations including a pair of active 20s as my nearfield monitors. To my ear, they were always neutral, and slightly darker than my main far field speakers.
Perhaps the issue was in other equipment, or your room. Your horns will have a very different dispersion/reflection relationship with the room than the ATCs.
I'm glad to hear that you enjoy your ATCs. Yes, most people seem to and certainly the smaller ones such as the 20s are more likely to have been designed for closer listening than the bigger "studio monitors".
My other equipment at the time was simply a Mark Levinson 390S that acted as CDP, DAC and preamp. That was it, apeart from a DAB digital tuner that was connected to one of the 390S digital inputs.
The room was probably acoustically better than my current one, being 5-sided with a huge bay, 320 sq ft and 10 ft ceilings, old soft plaster-on-brick walls and full carpeting. Suited well my KEF Reference 107s and even older Wharfedale Airedales I had earlier and the Avantgarde Unos. The 50As just didn't suit me! I'd like to try 50s or 100s in my present room. I think my present 945 sq ft room may offer them more space to breeth although my ceilings are low.
I don't know if their "domestic" range of big speakers are identical to the pro ones or whether they use a different XO or other tuning for home listening. Certainly the cabinet differs as they are properly floorstanding.
How can I say without insulting you (which I do not want to do) that repeating your experience of 20 years ago with an ATC 50 demo is probably not very relevant for ATC (or any brand of speakers) now. So much has changed- ATC has gone through THREE generations of tweeters (VIFA, then SEAS, then ATC) and therefore 3 different active crossovers to match (and 3 different passive crossovers to match in passive versions) plus 2 different midrange waveguides, plus 2 different generations of LF drivers plus 2 different 3 way amp pack designs. So while valid at the time, I don't think it bears much similarity to current production.
We've had multiple major artists- Hiromi for example- use ATC because she says "it sounds like my piano" . She's still recorded by Michael Bishop and crew from 5/4 productions (5/4 is the modern evolution of Telarc). I don't think in your face echoes anything I've heard from a user or dealer in the last 10 years or so.
Brad
ATC USA
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