Audio Critique
- Thread starter Amir
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N = 0? A poll might be interesting if it could get at the reasons behind why people made the choices they did.
My question should have been stated as: How many people who post actively here would use "professional" reviews to be the sole source of choosing gear? Professional (several not one) vs. user feedback.
Regarding user comments, I'm certainly guilty of hyperbole in some of my own feedback. And while it is good (and fun) to share the enthusiasm, that alone doesn't give the potential buyer what they need. Given how different setups are, I usually try to explain my own context (gear, preferences) in case that is useful.
Of course, one should expect a higher standard from a "professional" reviewer. I like the format where more than one reviewer explains their reactions (I've seen this online). Contrasts like that are interesting and can be useful. Those are usually followed by reader comments that invariably say something like: What do you know? This equipment is too *$%^ expensive and can't be worth the money.
let me explain more .
1- How that audio component sound?
when you have maximum matching (please read pervious posts) and perfect setup then you do not hear bright sound or any big fault in the sound , I told before dartzeel power amplifier does not have any problem in bass and no audio component is bright , what you read in audio press is not about that component it is about non properly setup systems. in a properly setup system what you hear is how "transparent" is that component and how it affect on your emotional reaction to music.
"transparent" to me is not just micro details (for example computer audio is perfect for micro details but it is compress (dynamic compression) and lifeless).
"transparent" to me refer to all aspects of sound (harmonics, dynamics, image/presence) and if your record (CD or LP or ...) has 1000 unit information then how much of that information will receive by listener.
no audio component is 100% transparent and i told before we need two audio system to cover all data.
I have three category for sound:
- Presence/image
- harmonics/timbre
- dynamics
what you feel in your room is about presence/image/dimension of sound in your room. you should not receive the sound from loudspeakers, you should not feel the sound is not dimensional , you should feel you are hearing a dimensional sound from your room.
good presence means dimensional sound plus velvet texture, no forwardness, no hard texture. most audiophiles understand this aspect of the sound.
- harmonics/timbre is about beauty of sound. rich harmonics are very important for sound. not all audiophiles understand this aspect of the sound.
- dynamics are even more important that harmonics but very few audiophiles understand this aspect of the sound.
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Dave Liebman described music during a "blindfold test" in the latest Downbeat: "Music is color, rhythm, form and harmony. This piece is strong on the color, which means sound."
I've learned a lot from musicians describing what they hear. For non-musicians, it gives a different reference point for listening to music. I'm finding that I am recovering my old ability to "listen through" a system and enjoying music in unlikely places when away from home.
It seems that reviews rarely talk about how the reviewer reacts differently to music when listening to a new piece of gear. Some talk about better bass, etc., but only a very few explain how the new gear provides them new perspectives on the music. Those few are the ones that get my attention.
I've learned a lot from musicians describing what they hear. For non-musicians, it gives a different reference point for listening to music. I'm finding that I am recovering my old ability to "listen through" a system and enjoying music in unlikely places when away from home.
It seems that reviews rarely talk about how the reviewer reacts differently to music when listening to a new piece of gear. Some talk about better bass, etc., but only a very few explain how the new gear provides them new perspectives on the music. Those few are the ones that get my attention.
I was instrument player for 3 years and I do not say I am musician but I have talked to some of them and invite them to listen to my audio system and I have talked to them about sound.
I think audiophiles should care more about how they react to music not sound. the important thing is the listener relationship to music not the sound. audiophiles should care more how music listening is engaging to them but the problem is many audiophiles come to my home and ask me to play some impressive records (like CEC CD Test or Manger CD test or Audiophile CD Test and ...) for a short time , for example 30 seconds or 60 seconds.
I tell them please bring your favorite music CD and spend time for listening to music.
finally the audio system is just a tools for listening music not for 1 minutes impression.
I think audiophiles should care more about how they react to music not sound. the important thing is the listener relationship to music not the sound. audiophiles should care more how music listening is engaging to them but the problem is many audiophiles come to my home and ask me to play some impressive records (like CEC CD Test or Manger CD test or Audiophile CD Test and ...) for a short time , for example 30 seconds or 60 seconds.
I tell them please bring your favorite music CD and spend time for listening to music.
finally the audio system is just a tools for listening music not for 1 minutes impression.
I learned about music and gear at the same time. My father had a mono setup (tubed gear from a kit, concentric mid/HF driver + very large woofer, turntable with an arm that mysteriously floated when knocked off course) through which he blasted his classical music. Talk about dynamic! The gear didn't interest me at all.
Much later, when I decided I needed decent speakers, that sound was my reference point. A popular hi-fi magazine recommended a speaker that had a very flat response and suggested it was as good as anything else. I went to one of the ubiquitous hi-fi stores to listen. It was a completely boring presentation. Went home disappointed and threw out the magazine. But the search continued...
Much later, when I decided I needed decent speakers, that sound was my reference point. A popular hi-fi magazine recommended a speaker that had a very flat response and suggested it was as good as anything else. I went to one of the ubiquitous hi-fi stores to listen. It was a completely boring presentation. Went home disappointed and threw out the magazine. But the search continued...
Here is a review I enjoyed: https://hifiplus.com/articles/vitus-mp-201-masterpiece-d-a-converter/
some content from the review:
We listen to systems, not individual components. How can we make any sort of accurate determination as to the interplay between audio electronics when there are so many of them in operation at the same time, all doing such complex jobs with music, one of the most intricate, and transient art forms around?
...
Let’s talk system resolution for a moment. I believe that the word means different things to different people and barely an audio discussion passes without its absolute desirability being dropped into the mix. For me it encompasses just about everything that comes out of the speakers. It’s not so much that you hear new details that you haven’t heard before but rather that you hear them in a new light, perhaps with a new relevance to the piece.
...
Take the seeming simplicity of a single musical phrase whether it be from an instrument or a voice. It’s all part of the story that the composition is telling. The Vitus spins the yarn explicitly. It seems to revel in showing the smallest details, joining them up and relating them to the whole, even on the simplest of songs by the most introspective of singer-songwriters. It has an almost surreal way of explaining the piece through the language of music and where the art itself is concerned the Vitus is supremely eloquent. High-end systems like this are simply wonderful at unravelling musical relationships and their place in the passing of time, or we may call it rhythm or tempo.
...
Yes, the Vitus MP-201 is a masterpiece product as the name states but it can only work within the limitations of the system it sits at the heart of and this means that its likely destinations are high-end systems, or in other words, expensive systems assembled by those fortunate enough to be able to afford them. You are going to need to make sure that every detail has been thought through. This means from the router onwards. You really need to give the conductor the right tools and there are no short cuts.
some content from the review:
We listen to systems, not individual components. How can we make any sort of accurate determination as to the interplay between audio electronics when there are so many of them in operation at the same time, all doing such complex jobs with music, one of the most intricate, and transient art forms around?
...
Let’s talk system resolution for a moment. I believe that the word means different things to different people and barely an audio discussion passes without its absolute desirability being dropped into the mix. For me it encompasses just about everything that comes out of the speakers. It’s not so much that you hear new details that you haven’t heard before but rather that you hear them in a new light, perhaps with a new relevance to the piece.
...
Take the seeming simplicity of a single musical phrase whether it be from an instrument or a voice. It’s all part of the story that the composition is telling. The Vitus spins the yarn explicitly. It seems to revel in showing the smallest details, joining them up and relating them to the whole, even on the simplest of songs by the most introspective of singer-songwriters. It has an almost surreal way of explaining the piece through the language of music and where the art itself is concerned the Vitus is supremely eloquent. High-end systems like this are simply wonderful at unravelling musical relationships and their place in the passing of time, or we may call it rhythm or tempo.
...
Yes, the Vitus MP-201 is a masterpiece product as the name states but it can only work within the limitations of the system it sits at the heart of and this means that its likely destinations are high-end systems, or in other words, expensive systems assembled by those fortunate enough to be able to afford them. You are going to need to make sure that every detail has been thought through. This means from the router onwards. You really need to give the conductor the right tools and there are no short cuts.
Let me explain my experience about listening to 4 DACs in one system but in different speaker positions.
Me and my friends listened to 4 DACs in three different Speaker position:
1- TAD D600 CD Player
2- CEC TL0 3.0/Vitus DAC
3- CEC TL0 3.0/Audio Note DAC5
4- CEC TL0 3.0/Weiss Medus Reference DAC
A - Speakers in Position A (long wall 9.3m behind speakers) 1.8m from rear wall . I have spend 5 hours to find a good place for placing speakers in this position.
B - Speakers in Position B (Short wall 5.36m behind speakers) 2m from rear wall . I have spend 2 hours to find a good place for placing speakers in this position.
C - Speakers in Position C (short wall 5.36m behind speaker) 1.7m from rear wall. I have spend more than 8 hours to find a good place in this position.
The test result:
when speakers were in position A we had maximum contrast between 4 DACs and the difference between 4 DACs was huge.
The decays were longest in this position and the sound was open and emotional .
when we moved speakers to position B then the contrast between 4 DACs decreased and the sound was less emotional . Decays were shorter and the sound does not satisfied us.
We moved speakers to Position C and the result was awful .
Very lifeless sound and the contrast between four DACs was very very small. No emotion in music and the sound was awful. Do not mistake about bad speaker placement , No , the speaker position in C was not bad and midrange was ok , bass was ok and ... but in comparison to B and A the sound was not engaging.
I believe audio reviewing is not easy task , I always regard Clark Johnsen because he never interested to review equipments like other reviewers.
Me and my friends listened to 4 DACs in three different Speaker position:
1- TAD D600 CD Player
2- CEC TL0 3.0/Vitus DAC
3- CEC TL0 3.0/Audio Note DAC5
4- CEC TL0 3.0/Weiss Medus Reference DAC
A - Speakers in Position A (long wall 9.3m behind speakers) 1.8m from rear wall . I have spend 5 hours to find a good place for placing speakers in this position.
B - Speakers in Position B (Short wall 5.36m behind speakers) 2m from rear wall . I have spend 2 hours to find a good place for placing speakers in this position.
C - Speakers in Position C (short wall 5.36m behind speaker) 1.7m from rear wall. I have spend more than 8 hours to find a good place in this position.
The test result:
when speakers were in position A we had maximum contrast between 4 DACs and the difference between 4 DACs was huge.
The decays were longest in this position and the sound was open and emotional .
when we moved speakers to position B then the contrast between 4 DACs decreased and the sound was less emotional . Decays were shorter and the sound does not satisfied us.
We moved speakers to Position C and the result was awful .
Very lifeless sound and the contrast between four DACs was very very small. No emotion in music and the sound was awful. Do not mistake about bad speaker placement , No , the speaker position in C was not bad and midrange was ok , bass was ok and ... but in comparison to B and A the sound was not engaging.
I believe audio reviewing is not easy task , I always regard Clark Johnsen because he never interested to review equipments like other reviewers.
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Basic and fundamental, yes. And yet, these are the qualities that are so difficult to get right. They bear repeating and understanding. Even simpler is not breaking the music down into parts. You know it reminds you of live when you hear it. We get bogged down by trying to describe it. It is a real challenge, but I think Amir is making a good effort.
Others should try it and see how challenging it is.
I should put more time to find a better speaker position but I doubt to be successful .
the speakers in long wall (9.3m) are better but the problem is front wall is less than 7.3m and my speakers need more space to breath.
I am not 100% sure but I guess my room is not good for TAD R1
In my room there are very few neutral zones for listener and in most places of speaker position the sound is not good, it means to me my room is not good.
the side wall reflections kill the sound and short front to back wall increase slap echo
the speakers in long wall (9.3m) are better but the problem is front wall is less than 7.3m and my speakers need more space to breath.
I am not 100% sure but I guess my room is not good for TAD R1
In my room there are very few neutral zones for listener and in most places of speaker position the sound is not good, it means to me my room is not good.
the side wall reflections kill the sound and short front to back wall increase slap echo
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The problem is not only high RT , I have decreased the RT by using 60 acoustic panels but it was one step forward and two step back .
Most Acoustic panels change the sound in a wrong directions (to my ears) and I do not like them.
What We need is enough furnitures , trees, ... in home to lower the RT.
The most important thing is the room shape (room match to speaker) and speaker position.
Most Acoustic panels change the sound in a wrong directions (to my ears) and I do not like them.
What We need is enough furnitures , trees, ... in home to lower the RT.
The most important thing is the room shape (room match to speaker) and speaker position.
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I read a post from the OP on page two of this thread that says, many tube preamps and tube DAC's have a high output impedance, but there are many that have low output impedance. The audio note DAC 5 has an output impedance of 13ohms compared to the great measuring topping d90se which has an output impedance of 100ohms.
Since you have a deep knowledge of the gear, have made best efforts to get the best positioning without finding a satisfactory position and you seem to have the freedom to move the gear and speakers wherever you want (unlike a living room or shared space), I'm wondering if the next step is consulting a professional.
This would be an interesting case study. What does the professional do that you haven't already tried?
I have sent an email to Bob and asked him to visit my room for speaker placement but no one comes to Iran because Iran is not a safe place. Bob and Jim Smith and Stirling Trayle all are expert in speaker placement and system setup but I think non of them come to Iran.
I also asked David to visit me if he had a trip to Iran.
Jim Smith
www.getbettersound.com
Stirling Trayle
www.audiosystemsoptimized.com
Bob
https://www.myspeakersetup.com/
I will start positioning speakers in another configuration next week , 45 degrees to side walls
I also asked David to visit me if he had a trip to Iran.
Jim Smith
Get Better Sound | Get Better Sound
www.getbettersound.com
Stirling Trayle
Audio Systems Optimized | Petaluma | High End Audio Set-Up
Audio Systems Optimized provides home audio system set-up and optimization services, specializing in high-end turntable and loudspeaker setup.
www.audiosystemsoptimized.com
Bob
https://www.myspeakersetup.com/
I will start positioning speakers in another configuration next week , 45 degrees to side walls
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System Warm up is very important before any Judgment.
my rule is 50/100/1 hours .
100 hours: All cables should be fix (not move) around 100 hours
50 hours: The audio system should play music continuously (non-stop) over 50 hours at moderate level.
1 hour: One hour play music at higher level to fully warm up power amplifier.
my rule is 50/100/1 hours .
100 hours: All cables should be fix (not move) around 100 hours
50 hours: The audio system should play music continuously (non-stop) over 50 hours at moderate level.
1 hour: One hour play music at higher level to fully warm up power amplifier.
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