Audio Note UK vs Audio Japan Sonic Differences

[bonzo75]

But based on my limited experience and also based on what people I know are doing with 300B amplification I had come to the conclusion (for myself) that ideally it should be dedicated to middle and high frequencies.

This is a myth propagated by those who match 300bs incorrectly. While 300b might be more mid-centric than say 211 or GM70, if are running it from 5 to 10 watts you won’t have issues on bass with the appropriate speaker.

The Art Audio 300b amp is also a good budget (relatively speaking) amp, haven’t tried it on Devore but will be surprised if it does not do well.

Now regarding GM70 I will not develop in this thread, may be in your SET thread one of this day. What I will just say is that it is also limited with regards to the bass response but the rest is all magic. I have yet to hear so much weight to the instruments with another amp, but again I am just back to tube amplification...

The GM70 I have been listening to is great on bass

However, it is not the tube itself that is less bass or more bass, so I wouldn’t generalize on how good specific tubes are for bass.

I wouldn’t get too caught up in Kondo or AN. With Kondo at least, you need to spend a lot and build the chain around Kondo to get the magic. Many think buying any Kondo equipment and plugging it in will get them Kondo magic, that is not the case, they will be better off with other electronics. Only if you have the budget and are going all in – Kondo pre (M1000, G1000, maybe M77 (haven’t heard it myself) coupled with a Kondo amp like Gakuon/Kagura etc, you will get there.

 

[Tonari]

Obviously power limitations and speaker matching are important for bass response regardless of the tubes being used. I would add room acoustic (still not perfect in my case). And I would also add circuit design/transformers quality.
From artaudio website : "The only criticism around single ended amps was poor frequency extremes, so we tackled this in our designs." It seems AN UK has also tackled the same with the Tonmeister as reported above by Richard. And for sure these 2 manufacturers were not the first to do so...
Actually what I find interesting here is that you don't necessarily need to go for the top of the line of the brand to get this sense of the band playing music being there with you.

 

[Richard Austen]

i don’t like the M7 (M1000 and G1000 for example is awesome), but I just wanted to bring it here that it was the common pre, and yet the non Kondo GM70 sounded better.

Well that's a fair statement but I would put it to you that all you have illustrated is that the unnamed GM-70 sounds better than some other amps via a not-very-good preamp. It is entirely possible that all three power amps you rate 1-2-3 with the M7 could come in the exact opposite order with a superior preamp.

The boring dull M7 in other words may need a brighter leaner power amp to get the combination to sound better - but the brighter leaner power amp in a preamp that isn't an overly polite bore could wind up being annoying with such a preamp.

I have been to too many dealers and audio shows where I have had a few rooms score dead last as the worst sound of show only to be 1-2 at the next. Even the gear I own has sounded rather unremarkable and I think - wow if I heard what I now own here instead of where I heard it I would probably own something else. Maybe it's my luck but I still chuckled over the very first tube amps I was looking to buy - I went to the dealer for an audition and about 30 seconds in the sound was muffled then began to smoke. They said they fixed it so I returned the following week - it started then began to get noisy and the tube lit up like a Christmas tree. Poof. Umm Wasn't selling me on tube amps - especially when Bryston and their 20-year warranty are on the shelf too - lol.

Anyway - system synergy and all that. Personally, I feel that system synergy is important - you can put the best tires on the planet on a Yugo but all you have is a Yugo. You can't then try the five highest-rated tires on the road on the YUGO and then make a valid comparison as to how good those tires are. It could be that the best tires will give you the WORST experience because the best tires are showing you in even more detail just how bad the YUGO is. And that is true with Audio - you can bring in product X and say - gee my system sounds worse with this power amp or DAC than the 4 other power amps and DACs I brought in so the conclusion is that the NEW item is poor when in fact it may be the only good thing int he system and it's the entire rest of the system that is the "weak link" - just like the tire example.

 

[bonzo75]

Well that's a fair statement but I would put it to you that all you have illustrated is that the unnamed GM-70 sounds better than some other amps via a not-very-good preamp. It is entirely possible that all three power amps you rate 1-2-3 with the M7 could come in the exact opposite order with a superior preamp.

The boring dull M7 in other words may need a brighter leaner power amp to get the combination to sound better - but the brighter leaner power amp in a preamp that isn't an overly polite bore could wind up being annoying with such a preamp.

I have been to too many dealers and audio shows where I have had a few rooms score dead last as the worst sound of show only to be 1-2 at the next. Even the gear I own has sounded rather unremarkable and I think - wow if I heard what I now own here instead of where I heard it I would probably own something else. Maybe it's my luck but I still chuckled over the very first tube amps I was looking to buy - I went to the dealer for an audition and about 30 seconds in the sound was muffled then began to smoke. They said they fixed it so I returned the following week - it started then began to get noisy and the tube lit up like a Christmas tree. Poof. Umm Wasn't selling me on tube amps - especially when Bryston and their 20-year warranty are on the shelf too - lol.

Anyway - system synergy and all that. Personally, I feel that system synergy is important - you can put the best tires on the planet on a Yugo but all you have is a Yugo. You can't then try the five highest-rated tires on the road on the YUGO and then make a valid comparison as to how good those tires are. It could be that the best tires will give you the WORST experience because the best tires are showing you in even more detail just how bad the YUGO is. And that is true with Audio - you can bring in product X and say - gee my system sounds worse with this power amp or DAC than the 4 other power amps and DACs I brought in so the conclusion is that the NEW item is poor when in fact it may be the only good thing int he system and it's the entire rest of the system that is the "weak link" - just like the tire example.

agree with most of what you said, so the power amp compares continue and we add data points.

 

[Richard Austen]

agree with most of what you said, so the power amp compares continue and we add data points.

Exactly, When I started in audio I made big errors by judging too harshly a lot of speakers. I eventually came to this conclusion when all the speakers I disliked were all connected to class A/B SS amplifiers and all the best speakers were connected to SE and SET or Class A SS amplifiers - it hadn't occurred to me that the amps mattered (after all - all amps sound the same and double-blind test gurus were in my head).

Then I had to revisit those speakers again with those better amplifiers. Albeit I wasn't always wrong as many of those speakers can't be driven with low watt Class A or SET amps. They may be a great speaker but like my car analogy - you can make the best speaker ever but if you are forced to use a 1kw SS amp or push pull tube amp to get a peep out of them - you are arguably starting with a third rate sounding amplifier so the better the speaker the more "third rate" sound you will hear. Also noting one's personal taste. I mean just WITHIN one company the "camps" form as to which amp is the best amp. At the budget end - the KT88 vs EL34 - let the debate rage. UL or Triode mode?

 

[bonzo75]

Exactly, When I started in audio I made big errors by judging too harshly a lot of speakers. I eventually came to this conclusion when all the speakers I disliked were all connected to class A/B SS amplifiers and all the best speakers were connected to SE and SET or Class A SS amplifiers - it hadn't occurred to me that the amps mattered (after all - all amps sound the same and double-blind test gurus were in my head).

Then I had to revisit those speakers again with those better amplifiers. Albeit I wasn't always wrong as many of those speakers can't be driven with low watt Class A or SET amps. They may be a great speaker but like my car analogy - you can make the best speaker ever but if you are forced to use a 1kw SS amp or push pull tube amp to get a peep out of them - you are arguably starting with a third rate sounding amplifier so the better the speaker the more "third rate" sound you will hear. Also noting one's personal taste. I mean just WITHIN one company the "camps" form as to which amp is the best amp. At the budget end - the KT88 vs EL34 - let the debate rage. UL or Triode mode?

Yes, I started with speakers first, and realized if I want to play back good LPs so that I understand the performance and the music, I need a simple circuit system – essentially, low watt amps with high efficiency speakers, with simple crossovers, flat impedance, coherent.

The only thing I will add is, you don’t only have to revisit the speakers with the better amps, you need to revisit the systems with better quality LPs, in case you have been using reissues and/or digital

 

[mtemur]

I said I would like to hear, for example, Ongaku vs. Ongaku or too monos from each brand.

I heard AN Ongaku, the top silver one with different speakers various times and I also heard 6 or 7 Kondo Ongakus many times. AN Ongaku is a very good, smooth, romantic amplifier. On the other hand Kondo Ongaku is lively, silky smooth but also energetic amplifier. It’s an extraordinary amplifier.

The top level AN all silver products are good but none of them can come close to the lowest Kondo. Lower than top of the line AN products don’t offer much. Those are my observations.

 

[mtemur]

IMHO the main difference between AN and Kondo products is lifelike character of sound.

AN products and cables have a smooth character, a specialty of aged silver that they learned from Kondo. Good but nothing special.

Kondo products sound significantly different and livelier in comparison. Kondo sound is more lifelike with their aged silver and KSL lacquer technology.

 

[DasguteOhr]

The OTO SE Silver Signature. I founded the sound rather shy i would say (to my taste of course) but I believe this was because we've listened to the Tonmeister first

Give him some good tubes, not electro harmonix (delivery tubes) then climb whole other spheres. you will be surprised. is an audio innovations schematics by Peter Qvortrup. If the power is enough, one of the best integrated amplifiers I know.

 

[bonzo75]

IMHO the main difference between AN and Kondo products is lifelike character of sound.

AN products and cables have a smooth character, a specialty of aged silver that they learned from Kondo. Good but nothing special.

Kondo products sound significantly different and livelier in comparison. Kondo sound is more lifelike with their aged silver and KSL lacquer technology.

Have you heard the emotion from AN that is present in top Kondo?

 

[Tonari]

Give him some good tubes, not electro harmonix (delivery tubes) then climb whole other spheres. you will be surprised. is an audio innovations schematics by Peter Qvortrup. If the power is enough, one of the best integrated amplifiers I know.

I agree with that. The dealer actually told me that many prefer the OTO to the new Meishu. Only a matter of taste at the end…

 

[DasguteOhr]

I agree with that. The dealer actually told me that many prefer the OTO to the new Meishu. Only a matter of taste at the end…

My tip
Phono stage one Telefunken smooth plate ecc 83
Phono stage two amperex 7308(ecc88)
Line ecc82+phase splitter valvo ecc83 or tfk
Output el 84 itt schaub lorenz high resoultion
Or valvo el84 more body smoothness

 

[mtemur]

Have you heard the emotion from AN that is present in top Kondo?

No, but emotion can change from people to people. The emotional engagement with music, energy, dynamics, flow associated with Kondo is not present with AN UK IMHO. The below setup is from Munich last year. There was nothing special about sound in that room but it is not right to come to a conclusion regarding show conditions. My comments about Kondo and AN UK are not based on sounds at shows.

 

[Richard Austen]

Give him some good tubes, not electro harmonix (delivery tubes) then climb whole other spheres. you will be surprised. is an audio innovations schematics by Peter Qvortrup. If the power is enough, one of the best integrated amplifiers I know.

Well, Peter Qvortrup is one of the only manufacturers who isn't bound by financial constraints owning many tubes that others have never seen let alone heard (ditto his vast LP collection) and he of course owns several Kondo amplifiers which can still be auditioned side by side in the same room level matched and blind no doubt.

 

[Richard Austen]

Have you heard the emotion from AN that is present in top Kondo?

The word emotion when applied to audio gear is really problematic because what moves one person won't move another - the proof of this is merely to consider music artists/bands/symphonies etc. Artist XYZ may move one person to a blubbering mass of tears and do absolutely nothing for the next person. The artists who move me can move me on $20 earbuds and the ones who don't move me won't move me even if I spend on a $2 million system (AN UK or Kondo or other).

The problem here again is that both AN UK and Kondo make rather different gear. I dealt with a salesman at one dealer who carried pretty much every brand for over 40 years and often brought in several brands they didn't carry out of curiosity - they went to every CES every year to find new stuff. Their used section was impressive as well. Best of all they were in a brick building with solid walls and well-treated being professional installers for audio and home theatres and movies and concert halls - they also repaired every brand whether they carried it or not.

Anyway, when Don retired he chose as his final amplifier a SORO SE. Where I currently live the dealer here HATES this amp - thinks it's their worst-sounding amplifier and indeed, refuses to carry it. So one dealer who has heard all the top brands top kits for 40 years chooses an amp the other dealer who has been selling gear for 40 years as well and has heard all the top brands in an audio and music mecca has the total opposite opinion of the same amp.

My own take on the SORO is a mixed bag - I have not cared for the amp with AN speakers or DeVore or other boxed speakers in the respective stores - but it made some speakers I have not really cared for sound better than I ever heard them before which was a bit head scratching.

At the prices of AN UK and Kondo - the solution is simply to get in-home trials. These sorts of dealers tend to offer a more luxury buying experience which includes home delivery and setup. Certainly, AN UK offers this as I would assume do all companies in these price points.

If you are looking for more experience with AN UK owners and dealers try the mega threads on the Steve Hoffman forum - Steve owns the Ongaku and Jinro and OTO and DAC 4.1 and a couple of their turntables etc. He masters for Analog Productions and uses AN at home and in the studio. I can't remember if he had the Kondo Ongaku but there are several people in those threads who owned both Kondo and AN UK.

Strictly for fans of Audio Note UK (all things Audio Note UK) PART TWO

A new AN dealer in the UK... Log into Facebook

forums.stevehoffman.tv

 

[bonzo75]

The word emotion when applied to audio gear is really problematic because what moves one person won't move another -

I usually don’t ask this on other threads but for those who like Kondo there is a certain emotion aspect that is not available easily in other gear. And with a direct compare, since mtemur is very familiar with Kondo gear, I specifically asked him in this context.

thanks for the tip on multiple openers on the SH forum. Yes I am aware Steve owns the AN stuff though not how much he paid for it

Howie on this forum has owned both too, he moved from Gobbel Divin to tannoy Westminster to AN E speakers

 

[DasguteOhr]

Well, Peter Qvortrup is one of the only manufacturers who isn't bound by financial constraints owning many tubes that others have never seen let alone heard (ditto his vast LP collection) and he of course owns several Kondo amplifiers which can still be auditioned side by side in the same room level matched and blind no doubt.

I have a old audio innovatons s300 amp from him, legendary amp like mf david.

Today there are OTO models like the Silver Signature that use many components from the expensive Kondo family. I would always prefer an OTO amp like this to Kondo Overture. You save €20,000 which you can invest in better speakers or signal sources. my opinion on this.

 

[Richard Austen]

I usually don’t ask this on other threads but for those who like Kondo there is a certain emotion aspect that is not available easily in other gear. And with a direct compare, since mtemur is very familiar with Kondo gear, I specifically asked him in this context.

thanks for the tip on multiple openers on the SH forum. Yes I am aware Steve owns the AN stuff.

Howie on this forum has owned both too, he moved from Gobbel Divin to tannoy Westminster to AN E speakers

Well I have always enjoyed Tannoy and Gobbel but I think the AN E would be better in a slightly smaller room. Perhaps that is what Howie owns - I think this is the same Howie who posts on the SF forum. I mean personally, I don't think anyone is going to go too far wrong here but IME there is no perfect loudspeaker or amplifier. I don't care how much you spend there will be something about something else that does it better than what you have.

My advice to a lot of folks is to ask yourself what it is you are trying to build - a system that allows you to enjoy music or a system that is an endless audiophile chase for "the best sound" - Dealers who post on forums want everyone to be the latter and that's why reviewers and review magazines exist. Forums are the same - people feel a sense of power in telling others they're wrong and then what they should buy is what they want you to buy. Well-intentioned it may be of course but there are too many voices.

In Asia, I do like when some audiophiles describe certain amps like 300B as being "lady-like" to be translated by me to mean "genteel" or "beautiful" VS other amps that are "lean" "neutral" or "truthful" I would describe the Kondo gear that I have tried to fall further over the beautiful side (although some will argue that that means veiled and soft) of the spectrum compared to AN UK which I find to be more balanced (in the center/center left or center right depending which amp) on the truth/beauty spectrum.

 

[Richard Austen]

I have a old audio innovatons s300 amp from him, legendary amp like mf david.

Today there are OTO models like the Silver Signature that use many components from the expensive Kondo family. I would always prefer an OTO amp like this to Kondo Overture. You save €20,000 which you can invest in better speakers or signal sources. my opinion on this.

Well, the prices in audio are getting stupid and there are a lot of dealers who are posting on forums either to slyly dump on the competition or slyly tout their own products.

The El84 is such a pleasurable sounding tube and the OTO has a good amount of stereotypical tube warmth but plenty of drive with the right speakers.

Sometimes I think the OTO isn't taken as seriously because it's not idiotically expensive. I've had mine for 20 years - it ain't going anywhere. I almost sold it once - glad I didn't.

 

[morricab]

Well, the prices in audio are getting stupid and there are a lot of dealers who are posting on forums either to slyly dump on the competition or slyly tout their own products.

The El84 is such a pleasurable sounding tube and the OTO has a good amount of stereotypical tube warmth but plenty of drive with the right speakers.

Sometimes I think the OTO isn't taken as seriously because it's not idiotically expensive. I've had mine for 20 years - it ain't going anywhere. I almost sold it once - glad I didn't.

You have the non-signature version, right? Have you heard the signature with upgraded output transformers?