Audio Note UK vs Audio Japan Sonic Differences

[mtemur]

After the break-up - AN UK kept the speakers because Peter had bought the rights to Snell in the mid 1980s when he formed the company Audio Innovations.

Sounds like it became a habit of AN UK, imitating other companies. Speakers from Snell and electronics from Kondo. IMHO imitation is the kindest word that can be used here. I hope one day AN UK manage to improve their products that can sound as lifelike as Kondo.

AN Japan/Kondo then had to design their own speakers all of which were not as good as the AN E. Although boy they looked prettier.

How do you know Kondo speakers are not as good as AN/E? They never went into production.

So they do seem to like those 801s.

Obviously you have no idea why there are B&W 801s in Kondo factory.

 

[morricab]

More effective at eliminating bald eagles and pelicans https://www.epa.gov/caddis-vol1/case-ddt-revisiting-impairment

Interesting...I just remember reading an article about poisonings in of people in Africa using DDT alternatives, which were far more human toxic and a resurgence in malaria as a result of switching away from DDT.

 

[Rhapsody]

Richard Austen said:
So they do seem to like those 801s.

The video you showed is from the old Kondo listening room. A year ago Kondo built a new sound room. This is a pic/article of the new room right as Kondo was moving into the new listening room earlier this year.

https://www.audionote.co.jp/en/column/column65.html

The 801's in the Kondo listening rooms, being 86/87 db efficient, with a big woofer, are used to test driving capability for the Kondo amps.

 

[Rensselaer]

Interesting...I just remember reading an article about poisonings in of people in Africa using DDT alternatives, which were far more human toxic and a resurgence in malaria as a result of switching away from DDT.

Malaria never went away for there to be a resurgence, people just spread into habitat where they hadn’t in such density before.
I remember when I first moved into my current home. It was in 1988, in the rural Norfolk countryside (UK). Back then, I was awakened every morning by bird song. One could not drive more than about ten miles in any direction before having to get out and clean all the dead bugs from the windshield. Today I can drive all day and get perhaps three or four bugs only splattered on my windshield. I am no longer woken up by bird song either.

 

[tarquineous]

Anyone familiar with the sonic differences between Audio Note Japan vs. Audio Note UK? Similar or different these days?

Thanks in advance

Not similar. AN Japan uses lots of silver and horn speakers. I heard them about 6 years ago at an audio show. One of the worst rooms I have ever heard. In your face, projected, poor imaging and soundstage, and upper midrange glare. And the bass was not integrated. I don't know if they have improved since then.
AN UK always has a good sounding room. I've heard them about five times. They also have kits, if you want to build your own component. Not every component is offered in kit form.

 

[Rhapsody]

Not similar. AN Japan uses lots of silver and horn speakers. I heard them about 6 years ago at an audio show. One of the worst rooms I have ever heard. In your face, projected, poor imaging and soundstage, and upper midrange glare. And the bass was not integrated. I don't know if they have improved since then.
AN UK always has a good sounding room. I've heard them about five times. They also have kits, if you want to build your own component. Not every component is offered in kit form.

Take this post from me with the caveat that Rhapsody is the US Kondo distributor, so of course I am totally biased.

It's your opinion which is respected as your opinion.

What horns was Kondo playing with and at what show may I ask are you referring to from six years ago? It was not in the US as Kondo did not show with horns in the last six years at any US show.

In 2019-2022 Kondo, at Munich, played with Kaiser, which are non- horn speakers. Kondo used B/W 801s in their listening room to test amplification driving capability. Kondo showed for 2-3 years prior to 2019 with their own Biyura speakers, which were non-horn speakers.

It's fine if you like ANUK, and like their rooms at shows, but to denigrate Kondo without details about the room that you mention from six years ago and to insinuate that the Kondo room that you heard is the worst sound/room that you ever heard sounds ultra suspicious.

Let's talk about specifics about this room. What show was it? What were the speakers and let's discuss in detail.

 

[mtemur]

Let's talk about specifics about this room. What show was it? What were the speakers and let's discuss in detail.

The right question in those kind of situations is “Skip the sound, have you ever been in the same room with Kondo Ongaku? ”

…and most of the times the real answer is “no“ but that rarely holds people back commenting about the sound of Kondo.

 

[Richard Austen]

You have no idea whether either of those “reviews” were made-to-order for compensation or not. You have no idea if either reviewer is friends with, or associated with AudioNote UK. You have no idea if either has pre-existing bias (positive or negative) to either manufacturer.

Even if both reviewers were in fact independent, had no knowledge (so no pre-conceived bias) of either product (unlikely, if audio reviewer’s) and had written with totally altruistic intentions, the small sample size based upon one event should not have validity to anyone with a basic understanding of scientific inquiry.

Unfortunately, we see too many people becoming convinced of the validity of something they read in print (on the internet) having no more evidence than one or two people saying such to be a fact. Web sites like https://www.factcheck.org/ work full time to try and dispel the agonising paradox of ambiguous and contradicting expert opinion’s (or outright lies) that relate to politics. Hopefully, we won‘t have to form our own!

There is a lot to your post to unpack.

I admire you for using fact checks in politics because it would be good to attain facts before making assumptions. What puzzles me is that you make a bunch of assumptions, intentional or not, that a positive review for AN UK means that the reviewers were friends with AN UK or paid off "compensation or not."

Let's try to assume these are honest people with an honest assessment of what they heard UNTIL such time as there are "facts" in evidence to suggest these reviewers are crooked. To suggest otherwise is libel.

Bias is certainly true but that goes for everyone including everyone in this thread and the entire world. The reviewer here noted that he LOVES Avantgarde speakers and was excited to have his fellow reviewer listen to them. He was positively biased toward the room going in.

Personally, I do not put stock into any rooms that sound bad at an Audio Show - Shows are heavily compromised listening environments - hell most homes and dealers are heavily compromised listening environments. The fact that Kondo Avantgarde sounds poor according to a couple of reviewers at ONE audio show means nothing. My reaction wasn't really about the results of Kondo - my reaction was more to the results that both reviewers really likes the sound of AN UK in the same show conditions (perhaps worse seeing the room) and in spite of that impressed them.

Perhaps I am more positive - I hope for good sound from every room. If you can muster good sound at a show you're doing something - if the sound is poor then we have to have the impartiality to realize that shit happens and it could be the result of any number of issues.

Earlier I noted my Devil's Advocate response that the same "slack" is rarely afforded to AN UK that is given to many others because of a system approach vs a non-system approach. That's why I preceded what I wrote with "Devil's Advocate."

Lastly, when looking at products from afar and putting stock into reviews - one should do one or both of the following:

1) Choose reviewers who hear things the way you hear things.
* So if you hear things like Art Dudley you would listen to him more than perhaps a Michael Fremer.

2) Go with the number of reviews - How many positive reviews from how many reviewers putting their real name behind what they say? (as opposed to forumers who could be anyone)
* If a product continually gets strong reviews from many reviewers in many magazines continuously then it should be an indication of higher-than-average quality.

I'd also add
3) Longevity - if the product keeps selling well decade after decade after decade then it has staying power in the sense that it is still desirable (as opposed to many items with a 4-6 year review cycle refresh ). How many products have staying power? How many products are listed in their discontinued section - if anyone was buying them they would not be discontinuing them. So were they really all that good? (maybe but the question is certainly worth asking yourself).

If you have a combination of all three - you're probably doing something quite well.

 

[morricab]

There is a lot to your post to unpack.

I admire you for using fact checks in politics because it would be good to attain facts before making assumptions. What puzzles me is that you make a bunch of assumptions, intentional or not, that a positive review for AN UK means that the reviewers were friends with AN UK or paid off "compensation or not."

Let's try to assume these are honest people with an honest assessment of what they heard UNTIL such time as there are "facts" in evidence to suggest these reviewers are crooked. To suggest otherwise is libel.

Bias is certainly true but that goes for everyone including everyone in this thread and the entire world. The reviewer here noted that he LOVES Avantgarde speakers and was excited to have his fellow reviewer listen to them. He was positively biased toward the room going in.

Personally, I do not put stock into any rooms that sound bad at an Audio Show - Shows are heavily compromised listening environments - hell most homes and dealers are heavily compromised listening environments. The fact that Kondo Avantgarde sounds poor according to a couple of reviewers at ONE audio show means nothing. My reaction wasn't really about the results of Kondo - my reaction was more to the results that both reviewers really likes the sound of AN UK in the same show conditions (perhaps worse seeing the room) and in spite of that impressed them.

Perhaps I am more positive - I hope for good sound from every room. If you can muster good sound at a show you're doing something - if the sound is poor then we have to have the impartiality to realize that shit happens and it could be the result of any number of issues.

Earlier I noted my Devil's Advocate response that the same "slack" is rarely afforded to AN UK that is given to many others because of a system approach vs a non-system approach. That's why I preceded what I wrote with "Devil's Advocate."

Lastly, when looking at products from afar and putting stock into reviews - one should do one or both of the following:

1) Choose reviewers who hear things the way you hear things.
* So if you hear things like Art Dudley you would listen to him more than perhaps a Michael Fremer.

2) Go with the number of reviews - How many positive reviews from how many reviewers putting their real name behind what they say? (as opposed to forumers who could be anyone)
* If a product continually gets strong reviews from many reviewers in many magazines continuously then it should be an indication of higher-than-average quality.

I'd also add
3) Longevity - if the product keeps selling well decade after decade after decade then it has staying power in the sense that it is still desirable (as opposed to many items with a 4-6 year review cycle refresh ). How many products have staying power? How many products are listed in their discontinued section - if anyone was buying them they would not be discontinuing them. So were they really all that good? (maybe but the question is certainly worth asking yourself).

If you have a combination of all three - you're probably doing something quite well.

I have no philosophical problem with ANUK’s products, particularly the amps and preamps fit with my concept of reproduction of sound.

My problem is practical. I have never heard a convincing demo of ANUK as a whole system. Not at shows, not at a dealers and not at a friend who bought a whole level 3/4 system. Where was the rub? Well, I think primarily the speakers. Say what you want it is my assessment that they they let the system down.
What I would like to hear one day is an ANUK amp/preamp combo in home and system compared to other good SET electronics that I own.

I have heard some Kondo “meh” setups and have heard some that were so good I started to think how to rob a bank. When matched correctly there just isn’t much else out there that competes. It just sounds right when partnered correctly.

 

[Richard Austen]

I have no philosophical problem with ANUK’s products, particularly the amps and preamps fit with my concept of reproduction of sound.

My problem is practical. I have never heard a convincing demo of ANUK as a whole system. Not at shows, not at a dealers and not at a friend who bought a whole level 3/4 system. Where was the rub? Well, I think primarily the speakers. Say what you want it is my assessment that they they let the system down.
What I would like to hear one day is an ANUK amp/preamp combo in home and system compared to other good SET electronics that I own.

I have heard some Kondo “meh” setups and have heard some that were so good I started to think how to rob a bank. When matched correctly there just isn’t much else out there that competes. It just sounds right when partnered correctly.

Well, people don't like the same things. I can borrow your words - the reason I own Audio Note UK is that "When matched correctly there just isn’t much else out there that competes."

You don't need to search for why you like something that other people don't or why other people like something that you don't like. It is what it is. People love the bloody LS 3/5a and Wilson Audio Speakers and they frankly mystify me. But the LS 3/5a is probably the most popular hi-fi speaker that has ever existed and Wilson Audio is the desire of maybe more audiophiles than any other speaker brand. So it goes.

 

[Jep]

Take this post from me with the caveat that Rhapsody is the US Kondo distributor, so of course I am totally biased.

It's your opinion which is respected as your opinion.

What horns was Kondo playing with and at what show may I ask are you referring to from six years ago? It was not in the US as Kondo did not show with horns in the last six years at any US show.

In 2019-2022 Kondo, at Munich, played with Kaiser, which are non- horn speakers. Kondo used B/W 801s in their listening room to test amplification driving capability. Kondo showed for 2-3 years prior to 2019 with their own Biyura speakers, which were non-horn speakers.

It's fine if you like ANUK, and like their rooms at shows, but to denigrate Kondo without details about the room that you mention from six years ago and to insinuate that the Kondo room that you heard is the worst sound/room that you ever heard sounds ultra suspicious.

Let's talk about specifics about this room. What show was it? What were the speakers and let's discuss in detail.

Reg Munich and Kondo: Did you like the sound in this room? For me and others the speakers were seriously under powered and did not show the potential of the speakers OR the Kondo electronics at all. One have to ask why Kaiser and Kondo decided to exhibit together as they are both very good products, based on my own experience with both brands. At home.

I heard the Kondo speakers in Munich many years ago, huge dissapointment.

 

[morricab]

Well, people don't like the same things. I can borrow your words - the reason I own Audio Note UK is that "When matched correctly there just isn’t much else out there that competes."

You don't need to search for why you like something that other people don't or why other people like something that you don't like. It is what it is. People love the bloody LS 3/5a and Wilson Audio Speakers and they frankly mystify me. But the LS 3/5a is probably the most popular hi-fi speaker that has ever existed and Wilson Audio is the desire of maybe more audiophiles than any other speaker brand. So it goes.

You are mistaking me with the Wilson/Magico, D’Agostino crowd. I am into the same kind of gear that ANUK makes. Based on their electronics philosophy, I am cool with it. It’s when paired with their speakers the practice doesn’t meet the theory. As I said, would love to hear a L4 or 5 amp/preamp with more suitable speakers.

 

[bonzo75]

Reg Munich and Kondo: Did you like the sound in this room? For me and others the speakers were seriously under powered and did not show the potential of the speakers OR the Kondo electronics at all. One have to ask why Kaiser and Kondo decided to exhibit together as they are both very good products, based on my own experience with both brands. At home.

I heard the Kondo speakers in Munich many years ago, huge dissapointment.

The Kondo rooms each year in Munich were a disappointment, they showed with Kaiser more than once. I heard Kondo disappoint with Magico as well compared to Vitus (not at a show).

However, the whole top of the line Kondo stack with Sigma MAAT, Diesis, and Bionor are excellent (none of them heard at a show).

I wouldn't go for lower end Kondo products like M7, Neiro (2a3 amp) or Overture.

Visiting Rhapsody you can probably listen to Kondo on multiple speakers, to see where it works and where it doesn't.

 

[Tonari]

May be Devore Oragutan O/96 speakers ??

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

May be Devore Oragutan O/96 speakers ??

And Living Voice Speakers !

 

[Rhapsody]

The Kondo rooms each year in Munich were a disappointment, they showed with Kaiser more than once. I heard Kondo disappoint with Magico as well compared to Vitus (not at a show).

However, the whole top of the line Kondo stack with Sigma MAAT, Diesis, and Bionor are excellent (none of them heard at a show).

I wouldn't go for lower end Kondo products like M7, Neiro (2a3 amp) or Overture.

Visiting Rhapsody you can probably listen to Kondo on multiple speakers, to see where it works and where it doesn't.

Jep, I agree, I have not been fond of the sound at Munich that Kondo has shown over the last several years. It is disappointing especially when realizing that the Kondo top electronics (GE10i, G1000i, Ongaku, Gakuoh II and Kaguras), ALL WITH NOS TUBES, and not the stock supplied Chinese tubes, sounds quite alluring.

For those that have heard the Kondo top pieces with Diesis and now Odeon at our place in Brooklyn or the Dallas location with Dieses can attest that the sound is in the VG category.

The net is you have to use the correct speakers and you MUST USE GOOD NOS TUBES to bring out the beauty of the Kondo gear. I am currently using mostly Amperex and RCAs in my Kagura and two Ongakus. More important than the power tubes are the input, driver and rectifier tubes.

Anyone in the NYC area or Dallas, TX vicinity please come for a visit if you want to hear Kondo sing at the level that it is so capable of performing.

BTW, you can also make ANUK sing as well if matched with the proper speakers/tubes.

All of this conversation and judging products from either ANUK or Kondo is just mental gymnastics and has nothing to do with how either brand can perform in real world, well set up systems.

 

[Juiced]

HI @Rhapsody

Which NOS tubes would you recommend for the Overture PM-2i?

 

[Rhapsody]

HI @Rhapsody

Which NOS tubes would you recommend for the Overture PM-2i?

I have not restocked an Overture with NOS, so sorry I don't know. Lot's of NOS EL34 out there and again the input/driver tubes are important. Unfortunately the RCA's, Mullard, TeleF's all have a different sound so it becomes personal preference and also tubes that have a certain sonic tendency to be matched with your overall system sound. A system that might be one notch on the dark side, the user might prefer TF's as they are clear and not dark. A system that is too bright might prefer RCAs or Mullards that "might" be a bit softer sounding.

A lot of people on here can give a lot better advice on tube rolling than myself. The best way is to jump in and learn for yourself by experimentation.

 

[DasguteOhr]

HI @Rhapsody

Which NOS tubes would you recommend for the Overture PM-2i?

Input stage 2x 6072 tubes

6072A JAN GE 6072 12AY7 BLACK PLATE TUBE NOS NIB *eTRACER* | eBay

Tested on our eTracer & Hickok 800A testers. Triode #1 - Plate Current = 3.33mA \ Rp = 22073 \ Gm = 1890 \ Mu = 41.7 \ Corners = PASS. Triode #2 - Plate Current = 3.17mA \ Rp = 23081 \ Gm = 1848 \ Mu = 42.7 \ Corners = PASS.

www.ebay.de

Driver stage
2x 12bh7a

2x 12BH7A General Electric neu in OVP - beide mit dem gleichen date code | eBay

Gleicher date code EF.

www.ebay.de

Gives a really good dynamic , 3d image and details and natural sound.
Powertubes not so important simply good, stable running new product. If you have higher demands, Svetland wingend "C" gives you 95% from nos telefunken sound.

 

[morricab]

Jep, I agree, I have not been fond of the sound at Munich that Kondo has shown over the last several years. It is disappointing especially when realizing that the Kondo top electronics (GE10i, G1000i, Ongaku, Gakuoh II and Kaguras), ALL WITH NOS TUBES, and not the stock supplied Chinese tubes, sounds quite alluring.

For those that have heard the Kondo top pieces with Diesis and now Odeon at our place in Brooklyn or the Dallas location with Dieses can attest that the sound is in the VG category.

The net is you have to use the correct speakers and you MUST USE GOOD NOS TUBES to bring out the beauty of the Kondo gear. I am currently using mostly Amperex and RCAs in my Kagura and two Ongakus. More important than the power tubes are the input, driver and rectifier tubes.

Anyone in the NYC area or Dallas, TX vicinity please come for a visit if you want to hear Kondo sing at the level that it is so capable of performing.

BTW, you can also make ANUK sing as well if matched with the proper speakers/tubes.

All of this conversation and judging products from either ANUK or Kondo is just mental gymnastics and has nothing to do with how either brand can perform in real world, well set up systems.

Oh no, you know Odeons are no good...just ask Ked...he is fond of telling anyone who will listen...or perhaps it depends on who is saying they are good whether he wants to troll or not... Full disclosure...I am an Odeon owner...