Audio Note UK vs Audio Japan Sonic Differences

[Tonari]

The reporters from Soundstsge global seem to have an opinion from the recent Warsaw show

SoundStage! Global | SoundStageGlobal.com - Audio Video Show 2023: Battle of the Audio Notes, Part I—UK

SoundStage! Global | SoundStageGlobal.com - Audio Video Show 2023: Battle of the Audio Notes, Part 2—Japan

All it means to me, like always with shows, if a system sounds good then all elements of the system might be worth a trial at home, and if a system sounds bad then... something wrong and this something can be a lot of things: one or some elements themselves are simply bad (it can be of course), the synergy between the elements, the music, the room, the state of mind at this time, a combination of some or all of these reasons and almost an infinity of other reasons I dare to say...

I have listened to a full AN UK system not so long ago (also with Meishu Tonmeister and average AN-E speakers) and the sound was great. So the first report tends to confirm what I think of a full AN UK system can sound like. That means great.
But the second report doesn't bring me any valuable information. As a matter of fact I have also owned AG speakers, although it was Uno XD, and this gives me one of the possible reason why the Kondo system has sounded bad (of course I might be wrong here, just saying what came straight through my mind when I saw the picture of The Kondo-AG system)

Would have been interesting to know which system both chaps would have taken home if allowed to do so

 

[Richard Austen]

To pick that up as a data point.

If someone walks past a room at Munich and hears it sounding bad, it is not technically dishonest. Though it actually is. And citing it as a data point is.

I think people pick and choose when to apply their standards. So on another forum, someone always says that in order to judge audio gear you should "always" have the gear in your house. He always says that whenever you say you don't like the stuff he loves (Magnepan/Yamaha/Spendor).

But then he hates AN UK because he heard it at a dealer/show for 15 minutes and didn't like it. I asked - well didn't you bring their whole system home to try it out? People like that don't see the hypocrisy.

But then not everyone has to accept the premise that you must bring it all home to be able to evaluate it. Peter noted something interesting in the video that he has nowhere to hide - he can't blame the speaker cables or the speaker manufacturer for poor sound since he made the cables and the speakers.

This is more Devil's advocate here but

I find it somewhat funny that in the next few posts after that video I posted we now have a post saying exactly this:

Because the Kondo room sounded poor - we now let Avantgarde and Kondo off the hook - Avantgarde can blame Kondo and Kondo can blame Avantgarde. That "poor sound" was the other guy's fault. And of course people who don't like AN UK won't give them the tiniest bit of kudos for being able to sound better than something else at like 10 times the price. No, we can't do that because we have axes to grind. that always must come first - intellectual honesty I see.

But then I think - perhaps Kondo should not get a total free-pass. After all "they chose those speakers!" Out of the pantheon of $60,000 speakers they could have chosen that's the speaker they chose to represent the Kondo brand.

So if a Kondo fan says it's a bad match (bad synergy) then what does that tell you about their designer's ears or their taste?

Either they think it's a great match (or don't have the ears to tell the difference) - they heard it and said - wow these speakers sound awesome with our Kondo amplifiers let's pay tens of thousands of dollars in hotel room costs to display them together!

Do you see what I mean? When they choose the gear they are going to show their wares with, they are telling you what they think is the "best sound" or the Best speaker to match with their gear. They should not get a free pass and be able to blame the speaker - they chose the damn speakers. I

So if you are saying it's bad synergy - then you have to conclude that their engineers/owner have bad ears for choosing those speakers or bad taste in sound for choosing those speakers.

And the other problem is that when I heard Kondo with other speakers that sounded good - how do I know it wasn't more the speakers saving the day?

I suppose I think if one guy can't get off the hook and also never gets any credit then why does everyone else get nicer treatment?

 

[bonzo75]

I think people pick and choose when to apply their standards. So on another forum, someone always says that in order to judge audio gear you should "always" have the gear in your house. He always says that whenever you say you don't like the stuff he loves (Magnepan/Yamaha/Spendor).

But then he hates AN UK because he heard it at a dealer/show for 15 minutes and didn't like it. I asked - well didn't you bring their whole system home to try it out? People like that don't see the hypocrisy.

But then not everyone has to accept the premise that you must bring it all home to be able to evaluate it. Peter noted something interesting in the video that he has nowhere to hide - he can't blame the speaker cables or the speaker manufacturer for poor sound since he made the cables and the speakers.

This is more Devil's advocate here but

I find it somewhat funny that in the next few posts after that video I posted we now have a post saying exactly this:

Because the Kondo room sounded poor - we now let Avantgarde and Kondo off the hook - Avantgarde can blame Kondo and Kondo can blame Avantgarde. That "poor sound" was the other guy's fault. And of course people who don't like AN UK won't give them the tiniest bit of kudos for being able to sound better than something else at like 10 times the price. No, we can't do that because we have axes to grind. that always must come first - intellectual honesty I see.

But then I think - perhaps Kondo should not get a total free-pass. After all "they chose those speakers!" Out of the pantheon of $60,000 speakers they could have chosen that's the speaker they chose to represent the Kondo brand.

So if a Kondo fan says it's a bad match (bad synergy) then what does that tell you about their designer's ears or their taste?

Either they think it's a great match (or don't have the ears to tell the difference) - they heard it and said - wow these speakers sound awesome with our Kondo amplifiers let's pay tens of thousands of dollars in hotel room costs to display them together!

Do you see what I mean? When they choose the gear they are going to show their wares with, they are telling you what they think is the "best sound" or the Best speaker to match with their gear. They should not get a free pass and be able to blame the speaker - they chose the damn speakers. I

So if you are saying it's bad synergy - then you have to conclude that their engineers/owner have bad ears for choosing those speakers or bad taste in sound for choosing those speakers.

And the other problem is that when I heard Kondo with other speakers that sounded good - how do I know it wasn't more the speakers saving the day?

I suppose I think if one guy can't get off the hook and also never gets any credit then why does everyone else get nicer treatment?

Sorry, this is a BS post. I think you are too caught up in Audionote and strawman forum debates.

 

[Tonari]

I think people pick and choose when to apply their standards. So on another forum, someone always says that in order to judge audio gear you should "always" have the gear in your house. He always says that whenever you say you don't like the stuff he loves (Magnepan/Yamaha/Spendor).

But then he hates AN UK because he heard it at a dealer/show for 15 minutes and didn't like it. I asked - well didn't you bring their whole system home to try it out? People like that don't see the hypocrisy.

But then not everyone has to accept the premise that you must bring it all home to be able to evaluate it. Peter noted something interesting in the video that he has nowhere to hide - he can't blame the speaker cables or the speaker manufacturer for poor sound since he made the cables and the speakers.

This is more Devil's advocate here but

I find it somewhat funny that in the next few posts after that video I posted we now have a post saying exactly this:

Because the Kondo room sounded poor - we now let Avantgarde and Kondo off the hook - Avantgarde can blame Kondo and Kondo can blame Avantgarde. That "poor sound" was the other guy's fault. And of course people who don't like AN UK won't give them the tiniest bit of kudos for being able to sound better than something else at like 10 times the price. No, we can't do that because we have axes to grind. that always must come first - intellectual honesty I see.

But then I think - perhaps Kondo should not get a total free-pass. After all "they chose those speakers!" Out of the pantheon of $60,000 speakers they could have chosen that's the speaker they chose to represent the Kondo brand.

So if a Kondo fan says it's a bad match (bad synergy) then what does that tell you about their designer's ears or their taste?

Either they think it's a great match (or don't have the ears to tell the difference) - they heard it and said - wow these speakers sound awesome with our Kondo amplifiers let's pay tens of thousands of dollars in hotel room costs to display them together!

Do you see what I mean? When they choose the gear they are going to show their wares with, they are telling you what they think is the "best sound" or the Best speaker to match with their gear. They should not get a free pass and be able to blame the speaker - they chose the damn speakers. I

So if you are saying it's bad synergy - then you have to conclude that their engineers/owner have bad ears for choosing those speakers or bad taste in sound for choosing those speakers.

And the other problem is that when I heard Kondo with other speakers that sounded good - how do I know it wasn't more the speakers saving the day?

I suppose I think if one guy can't get off the hook and also never gets any credit then why does everyone else get nicer treatment?

Let's not generalize too much around a single listening report. If only someone else would report how much he enjoyed listening to the Kondo-AG system and that would be a draw... And even if not, I tend to think that when you are interested in buying a system at that level of price you will at least go and plan various listening sessions with a passionate dealer if not taking a plane to the HQ of the company before signing the check rather than paying too much attention to the outcome of a show.
Regarding the video, I must first say thank you for sharing. I found it interesting like always when a prime manufacturer gives his view on the way he has chosen. I also appreciate the discussion around the recordings (mono vs stereo). One of the strength of Audio Note UK is indeed that it can provide a full voicing system (if this is can be said like that ). This definitely gives a significant advantages, also during shows (yeah, why is Kondo not building speakers?!?! )

 

[Tonari]

And I also like this one from the video: "ss is bs" !! But wait I still have my solid state amplifier on sale...

 

[Tangram]

FWIW, the AN UK room at the Toronto Audiofest in October was disappointing. However, they were in a new, smaller room, on the ground floor this year. In prior years they had a room on one of the upper floors that was bigger and that many people considered best in show for several years running.

 

[Richard Austen]

Let's not generalize too much around a single listening report. If only someone else would report how much he enjoyed listening to the Kondo-AG system and that would be a draw... And even if not, I tend to think that when you are interested in buying a system at that level of price you will at least go and plan various listening sessions with a passionate dealer if not taking a plane to the HQ of the company before signing the check rather than paying too much attention to the outcome of a show.
Regarding the video, I must first say thank you for sharing. I found it interesting like always when a prime manufacturer gives his view on the way he has chosen. I also appreciate the discussion around the recordings (mono vs stereo). One of the strength of Audio Note UK is indeed that it can provide a full voicing system (if this is can be said like that ). This definitely gives a significant advantages, also during shows (yeah, why is Kondo not building speakers?!?! )

Kondo isn't Kondo anymore - when Peter Qvortrup brought Audio Note to the entire Western World - the speakers they used were AN E/Snell Type E speakers. After the break-up - AN UK kept the speakers because Peter had bought the rights to Snell in the mid 1980s when he formed the company Audio Innovations. There was an Audio Innovation Type E speaker under that brand as well. AN Japan/Kondo then had to design their own speakers all of which were not as good as the AN E. Although boy they looked prettier.

But they proved unsuccessful - they made several Ruthy speakers and are now all discontinued.

The current head of Kondo (Masaki Ashizawa) seems to be more of a fan of B&W speakers and Avantgarde speakers I guess.

​

 

[Richard Austen]

Sorry, this is a BS post. I think you are too caught up in Audionote and strawman forum debates.

Please point out the strawman.

I am dealing in facts. Two reviewers covered AN UK and Kondo - The Kondo room is priced at least 10 times that of the AN UK room. Both of them greatly preferred the AN UK room.

The people who run these rooms choose what products they will use to demonstrate the product. This is easy for AN UK because it is always their complete system. All other manufacturers are responsible for choosing gear that will complement their products.

You can often blame the room, damaged goods, not having enough time to set up or things that went missing when shipping to the show. I have covered shows for instance where a room stunk the first two days but sounded really good the third or final day.

I have auditioned Kondo in good dedicated rooms and AN in good dedicated rooms - but the comparisons have not been back to back in the same room because AN UK and AN Japan are/were presented as complete systems. The Kondo Ruthy systems were nowhere near as good as AN UK systems with the AN J or E. And not many disagree with me since Ruthy and all of their speaker attempts have been discontinued.

So what is the "voice" of the brand now (the stuff is no longer designed by Kondo) - Here in Hong Kong and the above show they seem to be using all kinds of speakers - how the hell can anyone know what it sounds like if you hear them at a show with Avantgarde and then B&W 801s and here in Hong Kong they were connected up to Tannoy/Vivid Giya/Nola Grand Reference.

As someone noted - you need to listen blind level matched in the same room with the same gear at the same volume if you really want to be objective since people (including me) are biased. It's why I have conducted Blind tests and taken part in them. They're not absolute - I have issues with them too but it takes out bias.

 

[Richard Austen]

Here is Kondo Audio Note Japan's listening room

So they do seem to like those 801s. I have to say the best sound I have ever heard from the 801s in Canada was with the Wyatech Labs 211 amp - which uses AN transformers and other parts inside.

SoundStage! Equipment Review - Wyetech Labs Topaz Amplifier (2/2000)

 

[Rensselaer]

Please point out the strawman.

I am dealing in facts. Two reviewers covered AN UK and Kondo - The Kondo room is priced at least 10 times that of the AN UK room. Both of them greatly preferred the AN UK room.

The people who run these rooms choose what products they will use to demonstrate the product. This is easy for AN UK because it is always their complete system. All other manufacturers are responsible for choosing gear that will complement their products.

You can often blame the room, damaged goods, not having enough time to set up or things that went missing when shipping to the show. I have covered shows for instance where a room stunk the first two days but sounded really good the third or final day.

I have auditioned Kondo in good dedicated rooms and AN in good dedicated rooms - but the comparisons have not been back to back in the same room because AN UK and AN Japan are/were presented as complete systems. The Kondo Ruthy systems were nowhere near as good as AN UK systems with the AN J or E. And not many disagree with me since Ruthy and all of their speaker attempts have been discontinued.

So what is the "voice" of the brand now (the stuff is no longer designed by Kondo) - Here in Hong Kong and the above show they seem to be using all kinds of speakers - how the hell can anyone know what it sounds like if you hear them at a show with Avantgarde and then B&W 801s and here in Hong Kong they were connected up to Tannoy/Vivid Giya/Nola Grand Reference.

As someone noted - you need to listen blind level matched in the same room with the same gear at the same volume if you really want to be objective since people (including me) are biased. It's why I have conducted Blind tests and taken part in them. They're not absolute - I have issues with them too but it takes out bias.

I am reminded of the cigarette adds of days gone past when “four out of five doctors prefer Winston cigarettes “. And, “ten thousand lemmings can’t be wrong”.

 

[Richard Austen]

I am reminded of the cigarette adds of days gone past when “four out of five doctors prefer Winston cigarettes “. And, “ten thousand lemmings can’t be wrong”.

The analogy doesn't hold because audiophiles are a group of people who tend to care about audio and pay larger sums for it. So this isn't "well McDonald's sells 50 billion burgers that must mean they're the best" because they sell only because they offer fast service for a rock bottom price. And people who buy them aren't claiming they're the best.

Luxury goods for real connoisseurs (audiophiles and/or music lovers) tend to be a different ballgame. Generally, anyone who ventures beyond Best Buy and heads to a B&M Stereo shop has the desire for something special or a cut above the McDonald's of audio.

Even the gear I don't much like - I usually understand what people hear and value say about a Magnepan. The speakers are not for me but they do do things that sound different than a box - I disagree about whether those things are better or should be valued but the owners aren't conned, I prefer a great horn to a great panel but I get why people like their panels. But the connoisseur products that last and last have not lasted based on smoke and mirrors - they last because they are something that people desire because they think it sounds better.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I am reminded of the cigarette adds of days gone past when “four out of five doctors prefer Winston cigarettes “. And, “ten thousand lemmings can’t be wrong”.

At least back then I guess advertising and promotion always represented itself openly as promotion and advertising… as opposed to our current age rampant with below the line promotion and commercially driven influencers. It’s hard to know when someone’s just giving you an honest thought or if it’s part of a cash for comment promotion.

But following your earlier lead here’s more highlights from the good ol days of advertising, copy writers and truth in marketing… it’s a scary world at times.

 

[morricab]

Here is Kondo Audio Note Japan's listening room

So they do seem to like those 801s. I have to say the best sound I have ever heard from the 801s in Canada was with the Wyatech Labs 211 amp - which uses AN transformers and other parts inside.

SoundStage! Equipment Review - Wyetech Labs Topaz Amplifier (2/2000)

Depends which version….later ones uses Bartolucci transformers.

 

[morricab]

At least back then I guess advertising and promotion always represented itself openly as promotion and advertising… as opposed to our current age rampant with below the line promotion and commercially driven influencers. It’s hard to know when someone’s just giving you an honest thought or if it’s part of a cash for comment promotion.

But following your earlier lead here’s more highlights from the good ol days of advertising, copy writers and truth in marketing… it’s a scary world at times.

View attachment 119598

Turns out that DDT was a lot less dangerous than what they switched to and it was more effective.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Turns out that DDT was a lot less dangerous than what they switched to and it was more effective.

Unlike One Night cough syrup which was cannabis, chloroform and morphine in alcohol. The golden years of over the counter medication…

 

[Rensselaer]

Turns out that DDT was a lot less dangerous than what they switched to and it was more effective.

More effective at eliminating bald eagles and pelicans https://www.epa.gov/caddis-vol1/case-ddt-revisiting-impairment

 

[Argonaut]

Unlike One Night cough syrup which was cannabis, chloroform and morphine in alcohol. The golden years of over the counter medication…

Sounds Great …

 

[bonzo75]

Unlike One Night cough syrup which was cannabis, chloroform and morphine in alcohol. The golden years of over the counter medication…

must have led to serial cough then

 

[Rensselaer]

The analogy doesn't hold because audiophiles are a group of people who tend to care about audio and pay larger sums for it. So this isn't "well McDonald's sells 50 billion burgers that must mean they're the best" because they sell only because they offer fast service for a rock bottom price. And people who buy them aren't claiming they're the best.

Luxury goods for real connoisseurs (audiophiles and/or music lovers) tend to be a different ballgame. Generally, anyone who ventures beyond Best Buy and heads to a B&M Stereo shop has the desire for something special or a cut above the McDonald's of audio.

Even the gear I don't much like - I usually understand what people hear and value say about a Magnepan. The speakers are not for me but they do do things that sound different than a box - I disagree about whether those things are better or should be valued but the owners aren't conned, I prefer a great horn to a great panel but I get why people like their panels. But the connoisseur products that last and last have not lasted based on smoke and mirrors - they last because they are something that people desire because they think it sounds better.

You have no idea whether either of those “reviews” were made-to-order for compensation or not. You have no idea if either reviewer is friends with, or associated with AudioNote UK. You have no idea if either has pre-existing bias (positive or negative) to either manufacturer.

Even if both reviewers were in fact independent, had no knowledge (so no pre-conceived bias) of either product (unlikely, if audio reviewer’s) and had written with totally altruistic intentions, the small sample size based upon one event should not have validity to anyone with a basic understanding of scientific inquiry.

Unfortunately, we see too many people becoming convinced of the validity of something they read in print (on the internet) having no more evidence than one or two people saying such to be a fact. Web sites like https://www.factcheck.org/ work full time to try and dispel the agonising paradox of ambiguous and contradicting expert opinion’s (or outright lies) that relate to politics. Hopefully, we won‘t have to form our own!

 

[the sound of Tao]

must have led to serial cough then

Is that covid or are you just having a night out