Audio Note UK vs Audio Japan Sonic Differences

[morricab]

Peter Q:

"I wanted to continue to pursue sound quality through further exploration of the single-ended output stage and all manners of transformer coupling.
Mr. Kondo felt in contrast and I believe still feels, as he showed a push-pull 2A3 amplifier at the London High-End Show in September 1999. Firstly, that the push-pull triode output stage can somehow be developed to marshal a return to superiority and secondly that transformers only belong in the output stage of power amplifiers. I always considered this an abandonment of our basic principles and since Kondo-san never presented me with any push-pull prototype that proved to be better than any of the SE amplifiers he made, so I have stuck to my views.../...in early 1994 ANUK even paid to send an engineer to Japan to teach and train AN-J staff in quality control procedures, product consistency and layout (amongst other matters showing them how to get the power supply quiet enough to remove the feedback from the ONGAKU). Techniques and concepts that did not at the time exist in any measure at the AN-J factory, one of many such small investments that helped make the AN-J products more saleable."

"I named all the products, ONGAKU, KEGON, GAKU-ON etc. and I have the correspondence to prove this, we use Japanese names for the UK products as well, what more can I say?"

Is he seriously taking credit for the naming of AN-Js products?

 

[Tangram]

This thread has been quite an education. Given Peter Q.’s background, I wonder how much of the Audio Note UK mystique is due to marketing genius? I particularly admire the almost endless number of variations for a speaker designed by someone else and the logarithmic cost increase as you go up in build levels on their electronics.

 

[sjs]

I was hoping they would do a version of the Snell Type A but the speaker is so frankly big and ugly that I can't see them being able to sell enough of them unless they can pretty it up B&W style.

It looks like they had a Snell A type speaker in Warsaw last weekend (from Mono a Stereo)

 

[bonzo75]

This thread has been quite an education. Given Peter Q.’s background, I wonder how much of the Audio Note UK mystique is due to marketing genius? I particularly admire the almost endless number of variations for a speaker designed by someone else and the logarithmic cost increase as you go up in build levels on their electronics.

And the cost of materials keeps going down as you produce more similar units

 

[morricab]

And the cost of materials keeps going down as you produce more similar units

Only if you actually sell more and then place larger orders for the parts. You get price breaks based on the volume of purchase. He can put the same parts in as many products as he wants but if he doesn't sell any more than if he had just one product with those parts there is no scale benefit.

 

[christoph]

This is typical dimwit logic from people with an agenda.

After chawing through your whole "campaign" here I had to chuckle reading the sentence above

 

[Richard Austen]

I am pretty sure that were I crazy enough, Stavros would be quite happy to custom build me an amplifier running stupidly rare and stupidly expensive power output valves ! No problemo

I think many companies "could do it," but I suppose the argument here is that first you must be asked. I am sure an ARC can do this as well seeing their factory tour. Again though if I am a customer with this sort of money and I want a SET amp I base my trust in what I have already heard from the company. So if this rich guy already auditioned all the top 211 amps and liked AN best then when he turns to someone to design him something even better he's going to enlist that company.

And that one-off amp wound up generating a lot of interest from others who then were clamouring to get one (The coveted Asian market because they have more disposable income).

this isn't about necessarily "sounding the best' because like it or not some people can't accept this factoid - sound quality is subjective as is music taste, wine taste, food taste, car taste, and where you want to live taste.

Take Rolex - you can make a very good case that Rolex is better than Omega - for similar reasons - Rolex makes their own internal parts in-house - Omega buys the movements from ETA (the same movement you will find in other Swatch group watches like Tissot, Mido and others). But you put the watch on your wrist and maybe you just "like" the Omega better. I mean I don't like the look of any Rolex and I especially hate that date magnifier thing - yuck that looks hideous to me and I am not a fan of Dive watches because they all look the same to me and that is "meh" - that's a good thing for my wallet because if I did like the looks of Rolex then the rest of the lore might get me to buy in - or Patek Philippe (albeit $2million US for a watch is beyond silly to me). Makes the audio hobby of ours seem almost sane.

Lastly, you don't have to convince me about Aries Cerat - I have heard them twice and liked them both times - The Genus holds a lot of appeal because they have a headphone amp that the owner touts as being "best of world" class and it has remote control (I'm looking at you AN UK on both fronts). Plus they look great externally and internally.

But I'm now married with a stepdaughter and teaching takes up a lot of time now so I don't go out to the dealers that much (as they usually disappoint me). Whereas I used to just go and try everything I am more picky about my time - it has to be something I will be motivated to audition. The guy that sells Kondo is a chain smoker so you die when you go in there. The other dealer has AN UK Kondo and AN E speakers but I really loved the Hartsfield speakers which were fixed up and refinished. But big-ass speakers need a big-ass room which doesn't exist in Hong Kong. Audiophiles here rent out rooms in industrial buildings and visit their stereo on the side.

 

[Richard Austen]

After chawing through your whole "campaign" here I had to chuckle reading the sentence above

I am a fan - have been for over 20 years. When I first heard them I didn't like them - it grew on me - then a blind audition cemented my affinity for them.

As I try to say about this subject - all we have is a discussion - trying to justify why X system is good and why Y system is lesser/bad doesn't change one's mind.

If you listen to a system and it sound dull/boring/lousy then no amount of YACK YACK is going to suddenly make you say " I see the error of my ways I shall now love it" and this is the same the opposite way - "this thrilled me, it made me blubber, it made me tap my toes - it gave me goosebumps" then someone on a forum YACK YACKs about it being sucky - that isn't going to change one's mind.

That's why I don't care about how famous the designer is/hyped in the press etc - I want to sit in front of the stereo with the music I have brought and allow the system and only the system to convince me. Don't we all do that?

So what is left for the internet discussion is then only related to things like quality of parts, and popularity/success of said items. We have appeals to authority - So I look at your system and see Lampizator and then I say - here is what Fikus says about Audio Note http://lampizator.eu/amplifiers/pre/audionote mzero/m-zero.html

 

[Richard Austen]

It looks like they had a Snell A type speaker in Warsaw last weekend (from Mono a Stereo)

View attachment 119072

Thanks for this - I wonder if the speakers are actually coming - I don't think they're that ugly lol - but umm they aren't exactly pretty.

 

[Richard Austen]

Is he seriously taking credit for the naming of AN-Js products?

The original name of the amp was something along the likes of Audio Note Japan 211 (VT-4C) SET.
Peter says he has the documents that proves he named the products - the courts sided with Peter.

Now, let's put on our thinking caps. Kondo didn't have very good English - Peter speaks like 7 languages. So you are sitting there with a Japanese 211 amplifier that you want to sell to the rest of the world - you need a name that is both Japanese and that people in other countries can pronounce and a word that means something to do with music. AN UK was manufacturing the OTO, SORO, and Meishu - all of them were Japanese words that meant something audio-related. Both companies today seem to have run out of synonyms because new Kondo amps are named Melius and Ovation while the UK has Cobra and now going with German names Kapellmeister, Konzertmeister, Tonmeister - but they are all Meishu. Jinro is named after a famous Korean Gin called Soju.

 

[Richard Austen]

This thread has been quite an education. Given Peter Q.’s background, I wonder how much of the Audio Note UK mystique is due to marketing genius? I particularly admire the almost endless number of variations for a speaker designed by someone else and the logarithmic cost increase as you go up in build levels on their electronics.

Absolutely - many companies are completely unknown and wind up going belly up because of poor marketing or not understanding accounting and undercharging for your product. Since AN UK/AN Japan filed for Chapter 11 in the middle 1990s they had to get an education that carrying a whole bunch of stock with no one to sell it to is not a good idea. That is why now they have dealers to demonstrate and then you place an order with cash upfront.

I remember seeing an Audio Note Tuner in a second-hand shop here. I emailed Peter asking if it was real - it was - they made tuners - I said why isn't it on your website - he replied: "Because then we'd have to make them."

Customers keep asking for AN to make a new better version of things -

The AN E comes in 14 different versions
The AN E Ltd comes in 6 versions
The AN J comes in 10 versions
The AN K comes in 4 versions

And all the versions that are not listed on their website - it's kind of comical but hey you get it the way you want it. I am seeing other companies do this as well as amps where you can choose the volume control - Bespoke Audio allows you to design your own case and which inputs, outputs and cables are copper or silver.

I think when you pay $6,500 for an AN E/LX (or AN K/LX for $3,500) - you should always have the option to pick from over 20 finishes and also pay a bit more if you want any of the hundreds of RAL colours) and also be able to choose if you want high gloss or matte. Most $6,500 speakers give you 3-4 options. The B&W 805 D4 Signature standmount is $12,000 (umm okay) and comes in 2 colour choices. Or you could spend £12,998.00 for the Magico A1 that comes in one colour (ugly) and worse be forced to listen to Magicos. I mean I like Kink and all but that is a lot of masochism and not the fun Lucy Liu kind.

 

[morricab]

The original name of the amp was something along the likes of Audio Note Japan 211 (VT-4C) SET.
Peter says he has the documents that proves he named the products - the courts sided with Peter.

Now, let's put on our thinking caps. Kondo didn't have very good English - Peter speaks like 7 languages. So you are sitting there with a Japanese 211 amplifier that you want to sell to the rest of the world - you need a name that is both Japanese and that people in other countries can pronounce and a word that means something to do with music. AN UK was manufacturing the OTO, SORO, and Meishu - all of them were Japanese words that meant something audio-related. Both companies today seem to have run out of synonyms because new Kondo amps are named Melius and Ovation while the UK has Cobra and now going with German names Kapellmeister, Konzertmeister, Tonmeister - but they are all Meishu. Jinro is named after a famous Korean Gin called Soju.

Yeah, just because Peter won in a British court doesn’t mean much…I am sure he hired a slick fast talking lawyer and he got what he wanted.

 

[bonzo75]

The original name of the amp was something along the likes of Audio Note Japan 211 (VT-4C) SET.
Peter says he has the documents that proves he named the products - the courts sided with Peter.

Now, let's put on our thinking caps. Kondo didn't have very good English - Peter speaks like 7 languages. So you are sitting there with a Japanese 211 amplifier that you want to sell to the rest of the world - you need a name that is both Japanese and that people in other countries can pronounce and a word that means something to do with music. AN UK was manufacturing the OTO, SORO, and Meishu - all of them were Japanese words that meant something audio-related. Both companies today seem to have run out of synonyms because new Kondo amps are named Melius and Ovation while the UK has Cobra and now going with German names Kapellmeister, Konzertmeister, Tonmeister - but they are all Meishu. Jinro is named after a famous Korean Gin called Soju.

I think you missed the point that just getting the brand name is not something we care about here. Commercially sure, but this is not a forum for investors interested in finding commercially smart companies

 

[Richard Austen]

Yeah, just because Peter won in a British court doesn’t mean much…I am sure he hired a slick fast talking lawyer and he got what he wanted.

So you're saying Kondo-san was so inept and so poor that he could not hire a lawyer? What? This wasn't difficult - you show the financial statements - you show the e-mails. This is not a murder trial - lol - It's basic accounting/bookkeeping. Moreover, both companies are in possession of the name so it's not like either one of them bothered to fight over it.

 

[Richard Austen]

I think you missed the point that just getting the brand name is not something we care about here. Commercially sure, but this is not a forum for investors interested in finding commercially smart companies

Well, I am interested in sound quality for the money, and if I have to spend money I want the parts to be of good quality. Two partners breaking up like in a marriage is of no interest to me. Plenty of companies have disgruntled engineers who leave the company and form their own company.

A) The issue is sound quality - that is always debatable - you likes what you likes and I likes what I likes.
B) Build/parts quality - plenty of finely built brands using good parts AN UK and Kondo included
C) Original designs - well look at company patents if any - this is audio - most everyone has copied from someone - the older the company the more patents they likely have because it's all largely been done. And that doesn't mean you would like the result of said patent anyway. But at least you can say it's somewhat original. But none of this directly impacts A so it only matters conversationally on an internet forum. Some companies may not be able to afford a patent either.

I know several forums where dealers and importers sell various wares that are direct competition for AN UK. They want to push people to buy the stuff they sell and slagging the heavyweight in the SET world (AN UK) makes a lot of sense to me. I know a dealer who was upset because a customer moved from the States to Europe and brought his amplifier with him and then eventually sold the amp in Europe. The dealer was upset because he had to compete against one secondhand amp. pretty telling.

I mean I remember audio dealers in the 80s and 90-s who would often rip all the stuff they did not sell - and of course, everything you owned so they could tell the customer that they bought shit and what we sell is the best. It's nonsense - if you like the Sound of the Kondo Ongaku over the AN UK Ongaku then buy it. If you like the sound of the UK Ongaku then buy that - I suspect most can't afford to buy either one - in which case - who the hell cares? LOL It's like arguing whether you want Margot Robbie or Scarlett Johansson - whoever is the right choice and whoever is the wrong choice isn't coming home with you anyway.

 

[Tonari]

Well, I am interested in sound quality for the money, and if I have to spend money I want the parts to be of good quality. Two partners breaking up like in a marriage is of no interest to me. Plenty of companies have disgruntled engineers who leave the company and form their own company.

A) The issue is sound quality - that is always debatable - you likes what you likes and I likes what I likes.
B) Build/parts quality - plenty of finely built brands using good parts AN UK and Kondo included
C) Original designs - well look at company patents if any - this is audio - most everyone has copied from someone - the older the company the more patents they likely have because it's all largely been done. And that doesn't mean you would like the result of said patent anyway. But at least you can say it's somewhat original. But none of this directly impacts A so it only matters conversationally on an internet forum. Some companies may not be able to afford a patent either.

I know several forums where dealers and importers sell various wares that are direct competition for AN UK. They want to push people to buy the stuff they sell and slagging the heavyweight in the SET world (AN UK) makes a lot of sense to me. I know a dealer who was upset because a customer moved from the States to Europe and brought his amplifier with him and then eventually sold the amp in Europe. The dealer was upset because he had to compete against one secondhand amp. pretty telling.

I mean I remember audio dealers in the 80s and 90-s who would often rip all the stuff they did not sell - and of course, everything you owned so they could tell the customer that they bought shit and what we sell is the best. It's nonsense - if you like the Sound of the Kondo Ongaku over the AN UK Ongaku then buy it. If you like the sound of the UK Ongaku then buy that - I suspect most can't afford to buy either one - in which case - who the hell cares? LOL It's like arguing whether you want Margot Robbie or Scarlett Johansson - whoever is the right choice and whoever is the wrong choice isn't coming home with you anyway.

This is what makes it difficult to answer to the question behind the title of this thread, you cannot really compare the top products of both brands. Probably there is not a single dealer on the planet selling both brands and if that exists you won’t find the top models of both brands sitting side by side. I guess if you have unlimited budget you just buy Kondo!!

 

[sjs]

Thanks for this - I wonder if the speakers are actually coming - I don't think they're that ugly lol - but umm they aren't exactly pretty.

I am not saying Snell A speakers are ugly, but I had a pair for about 10 years, but they had to go when I met my wife

 

[dcathro]

I think you missed the point that just getting the brand name is not something we care about here. Commercially sure, but this is not a forum for investors interested in finding commercially smart companies

Have you had much experience with Audi Not UK or Kondo Kedar?

 

[bonzo75]

Have you had much experience with Audi Not UK or Kondo Kedar?

Yes I mentioned -
Kondo neiro 2a3 vs AN UK silver empress 2a3 compare, the neiro compared with an UK made GM70 in the Neiro system
whole Kondo stack with G1000, G10, and Kagura with United and Amperex tubes excellent on Siemens Bionor,
Kondo M1000 with Kondo Gakuoh extremely good Sigma MAAT, and
The Kondo Stack with G1000, G10 and Gakuon mk2 compared to Kagura and Souga on Diesis at Rhapsody's I wrote about was amazing,
the Ongaku compared to Absolare on the Diesis,
AN UK Jinro compared to KR 88 integrated on AN-E speakers,
Kondo Overture on Devore O96 (on which I have heard many amps) Natural Sound speakers with AN-J M10 pre, AN Kegon 300b,
comparing Kondo M1000 to Lamm top of the line preamp

The high end Kondo stack systems are brilliant. Very expensive, of course, and not debating value for money.

Both AN-IO J and UK field coil carts. The AN-J cart was very musical. Never liked the recent Kondo cart outside a Kondo system. The Kondo TT was compared to Da Vinci.

This list does not include hifi show demos of Kondo and AN-E

 

[mtemur]

LOL It's like arguing whether you want Margot Robbie or Scarlett Johansson - whoever is the right choice and whoever is the wrong choice isn't coming home with you anyway.

No, I guess we are (including you) arguing which one (AN UK or Kondo) is Margot Robbie. Actually everyone will be happy with either one comes home.