Audio Note UK vs Audio Japan Sonic Differences

[caesar]

Anyone familiar with the sonic differences between Audio Note Japan vs. Audio Note UK? Similar or different these days?

Thanks in advance

 

[morricab]

As I have never really heard AN UK amps outside of an all AN UK system...I cannot comment on the amps themselves. For the whole systems, well I am still waiting for an AN UK system to make me say anything other than "meh".

I have not heard an all Kondo system as I have never heard Kondo speakers. That said, an all Kondo system with LV Vox Olympian speakers was glorious, Single driver Fertin speakers with huge Onken box subs driven by 4 Kondo GakuOh 300B amps, M1000 DAC and M1000 preamp was pretty jaw dropping as well. Kondo Ongaku integrated driving Diesis speakers was rather spectacular as well.

 

[bonzo75]

Anyone familiar with the sonic differences between Audio Note Japan vs. Audio Note UK? Similar or different these days?

Thanks in advance

Preferred Kondo Neiro 2a3 to audio note empress 2a3 and preferred a local U.K. made GM70 to the Neiro

 

[Richard Austen]

The question is too big since both brands make equipment that sounds different from each other within the brand largely based upon their level and tube type - a great 300B can sound great but so can a great 2a3 or 211 or 45 but they will all sound different from each other and you may very well like the 45 over the 300B from AN UK even though they are at the same "level" in terms of parts. It's important to try both brands outside of their speakers. Kondo has gone through several speaker designs over the years and AN UK is firmly committed to their upgraded Snells.

AN Japan made several products - the International partner "Peter Qvortrup" helped voice the products and named all of them. He picked over the best-sounding units and rejected the others designed by Kondo. The first 211s were noisy and actually got a bad review in the US press. AN UK then sent their engineers to Japan to "fix" the high noise levels and put the original 211 (later Named Ongaku by Qvortrup) and it was often felt that it was the best-sounding amplifier in the world with an industry-setting price for tube amps. AN Japan went more to parallel Single Ended while AN UK has dabbled with that but seems to have mostly stayed with SET. Kondo-San passed away many years ago so the current Kondo is now likely something a fair bit different. I liked the Kagura II monoblocks at a show a while back.

I would say one thing to watch for is that Kondo/ AN Japan plays at the upper end of the price spectrum while AN UK plays more to the entry and middle level.

Kondo has silver-wired transformers and internal wiring so when looking to make a comparison you will need to compare Level 4 at the minimum and more like Level 5 AN UK to Kondo or AN Japan. Level 3 AN UK is all Copper wired - Level 4 is a mix of silver and copper and Level 5 is silver. I would also try and keep the preamp and power amp together from both brands when auditioning. Then try them into your favourite speakers.

 

[dcathro]

I just heard the base level Audio Note (UK) field coil speakers at the Melbourne Audio Show - very impressive!!

 

[morricab]

The question is too big since both brands make equipment that sounds different from each other within the brand largely based upon their level and tube type - a great 300B can sound great but so can a great 2a3 or 211 or 45 but they will all sound different from each other and you may very well like the 45 over the 300B from AN UK even though they are at the same "level" in terms of parts. It's important to try both brands outside of their speakers. Kondo has gone through several speaker designs over the years and AN UK is firmly committed to their upgraded Snells.

AN Japan made several products - the International partner "Peter Qvortrup" helped voice the products and named all of them. He picked over the best-sounding units and rejected the others designed by Kondo. The first 211s were noisy and actually got a bad review in the US press. AN UK then sent their engineers to Japan to "fix" the high noise levels and put the original 211 (later Named Ongaku by Qvortrup) and it was often felt that it was the best-sounding amplifier in the world with an industry-setting price for tube amps. AN Japan went more to parallel Single Ended while AN UK has dabbled with that but seems to have mostly stayed with SET. Kondo-San passed away many years ago so the current Kondo is now likely something a fair bit different. I liked the Kagura II monoblocks at a show a while back.

I would say one thing to watch for is that Kondo/ AN Japan plays at the upper end of the price spectrum while AN UK plays more to the entry and middle level.

Kondo has silver-wired transformers and internal wiring so when looking to make a comparison you will need to compare Level 4 at the minimum and more like Level 5 AN UK to Kondo or AN Japan. Level 3 AN UK is all Copper wired - Level 4 is a mix of silver and copper and Level 5 is silver. I would also try and keep the preamp and power amp together from both brands when auditioning. Then try them into your favourite speakers.

Have you ever heard AN UK electronics outside an all AN UK system? I did only with Oto se signature and it was ok but nowhere in the realm of Kondo. Would like to hear a top one against a Kondo GakuOh or OnGaku sometime... But not an easy comparison to set up.

 

[Richard Austen]

Have you ever heard AN UK electronics outside an all AN UK system? I did only with Oto se signature and it was ok but nowhere in the realm of Kondo. Would like to hear a top one against a Kondo GakuOh or OnGaku sometime... But not an easy comparison to set up.

The OTO SE Sig is around $6,800 - Kondo's entry-level is the Overture at around $32,000 US. The Overture is 30 watts per channel in push-pull using EL34 tubes. The OTO SE is ~8-10 watts Single Ended Pentode.

The Overture is the only integrated amplifier being made by Kondo now. Their separates are dramatically more expensive and thus if it sounds better than the OTO - well it ought to sound better than the OTO. The OTO just has to represent itself well in the $3,800 to $7,500 price range they sit in (there are 8 versions of it).

The comparison would be tough because people looking to spend $30k on an integrated aren't going to listen to the OTO SE Signature. And the people looking to buy the OTO probably can't afford Kondo.

Since the OTO has been selling continuously worldwide for over 30 years that is a testament to what the market feels about the amplifier. Albeit not everyone will like it - preferring the more robust Push Pull (in your face) and arguably crisper and leaner presentation of EL34 and KT88 push-pull amplifiers (from Kondo and many others). I prefer SET amplifiers to Push Pull and the OTO SE is arguably a "poor man's" SET. The EL84 is difficult to screw up as I have tended to like a lot more EL84 amps from all the ones I have heard. El34 and KT88 I tend to like less and I have heard more bad ones than good ones.

A fairer comparison in terms of price (and power) would be to compare the Overture Integrated against the Jinro Integrated.

 

[morricab]

I never said it was a fair comparison, in fact I thought I made that rather clear.
I said I would like to hear, for example, Ongaku vs. Ongaku or too monos from each brand.

 

[Verdier]

I have had neither one nor the other at home. But I have heard Audio Note UK very often: at a dealer who had many different units on display (I remember 300 B SE and PSE) and very often at a very small, family fair. Mostly with AN UK loudspeakers. For every boring demonstration there are at least 5 very exciting ones; at least that's my experience.

It is true that Audio Note UK offers very affordable entry-level components. But from Stage IV onwards, even AN UK devices become quite expensive. Here is an example: Audio Note UK Fifth Element/Fifth Force DAC Review - Dagogo

Audio Note also uses parallel single ended designs:

Neiro | Audio Note (UK)
Empress | Audio Note (UK)
Kassai | Audio Note (UK)
Ginrei | Audio Note (UK)

.... and some others

Kondo, however, I have heard too little and never in comparison. So I'm waiting to see what interesting things there will be to read here.

 

[Klonk]

I never said it was a fair comparison, in fact I thought I made that rather clear.
I said I would like to hear, for example, Ongaku vs. Ongaku or too monos from each brand.

Yes, that sounds fair. Did you not have a little discussion on a forum with PQ a few years back. (A dispute ?)

 

[morricab]

Yes, that sounds fair. Did you not have a little discussion on a forum with PQ a few years back. (A dispute ?)

Yes, I believe I did

 

[Tonari]

Just a few weeks back I have listened to the AN UK OTO Silver Signature (with DeVore 0/96 speakers) and not even a single second I have thought it can compete with the Kondo Overture that I own. But during same session I have also listened to the Meishu Tonmeister Silver (around 15k euros) and this time this was another story... Of course still a matter of taste (se 300B 8W vs el34 30W) and speakers matching.

 

[morricab]

W

Just a few weeks back I have listened to the AN UK OTO Silver Signature (with DeVore 0/96 speakers) and not even a single second I have thought it can compete with the Kondo Overture that I own. But during same session I have also listened to the Meishu Tonmeister Silver (around 15k euros) and this time this was another story... Of course still a matter of taste (se 300B 8W vs el34 30W) and speakers matching.

Was that the SE or PP version of the OTO?

 

[Tonari]

The OTO SE Silver Signature. I founded the sound rather shy i would say (to my taste of course) but I believe this was because we've listened to the Tonmeister first

 

[dcathro]

I have never owned an Audio Note UK product, but I have to say that I have a lot of respect for the brand. If I had a lot better finances, I might own some TOTL AN UK products.

They are not "Me Too" and do their own thing, spending the money on the inards rather than the casework. I also like listening to Peter Qvortrup's talks, as he has a unique slant on the industry.

I must say that I am surprised that they have such a low profile/presence on WBF.


A friend of mine owns a very nice Kondo integrated which is a very fine sounding piece of kit. This is my only real experience of the Kondo brand, although again I am sure there are many fine products.

 

[bonzo75]

Just a few weeks back I have listened to the AN UK OTO Silver Signature (with DeVore 0/96 speakers) and not even a single second I have thought it can compete with the Kondo Overture that I own. But during same session I have also listened to the Meishu Tonmeister Silver (around 15k euros) and this time this was another story... Of course still a matter of taste (se 300B 8W vs el34 30W) and speakers matching.

both NAF 2a3 and airtight 300b sound much better on O96 compared to the Overture, or compared to airtight EL34.

so not surprised that you ordered the 300

now, Kondo Gakuon might be a different matter.

have compared Kondo Neiro 2a3 to the AN empress 2a3 silver, both just did this slightly differently, and an U.K. based 14w GM70 was better than the Neiro on all fronts, when paired with the same M7 preamp

 

[Richard Austen]

Just a few weeks back I have listened to the AN UK OTO Silver Signature (with DeVore 0/96 speakers) and not even a single second I have thought it can compete with the Kondo Overture that I own. But during same session I have also listened to the Meishu Tonmeister Silver (around 15k euros) and this time this was another story... Of course still a matter of taste (se 300B 8W vs el34 30W) and speakers matching.

I never much liked the old Meishu or for that matter, any 300B amplifier all that much - The Meishu Tonmeister is the only exception thus far. I have the entry-level P3 Tonmeister in for review. The OTO which I have owned for 20 years is no match but then for the price it is in the price range of something like the Sugden A21SE and various tube amps from the likes of Line Magnetic, Prima Luna, Cary, Leben etc and the OTO competes and IME betters these at similar dollars.

The new 300B Tonmesiter amps use the same patented Galahad power supply of the Ongaku which is likely the reason the 300B actually has oomph as most 300B amps sound more than a bit weak-willed.

Still - pretty much every tube amplifier manufacturer sells a variety of tube amps with different tube types - so there isn't exactly a consensus as to which ones sound best. Best sometimes comes down to what you can afford or how you try to convince yourself that what you like is "the best." And worse, what you think is best in one system may be "meh" in a different system. IMO the mistake all these "full system" companies make is they all wind up living or dying on their speakers.If someone listens to an all AN or Krell or Linn or McIntosh system - if you don't like the sound of the room then you tend to chuck "everything" out. I didn't like the Ruthy speakers Kondo was using - but I didn't chuck out Kondo's amplifiers. Naim and Linn speakers don't really showcase Naim or Linn amps and sources. Of course, the other end of this coin is that if one likes the AN or Krell or McIntosh "system" then they sell someone 5-6 products instead of just an amplifier.

I spoke to AN dealer and he said the great thing about being a dealer for the brand is repeat business. If he sells someone a roksan integrated amp - great. They make a sale - but there is a good chance they'll never see that customer again. With selling Audio Note, the guy buys a CD player and loves it - comes back and buys an amp comes back and gets cables then there is also a large upgrade path. In a shrinking market, with fewer audiophiles, you need that repeat business and it helps if the company has an upgrade path to return to.

Audio Note UK has released a level 4 and level 5 version of the Meishu called Konzertmeister and Kapellmeister respectively. These would be the 300B equivalents of Tomei and Ongaku.

 

[Richard Austen]

both NAF 2a3 and airtight 300b sound much better on O96 compared to the Overture, or compared to airtight EL34.

so not surprised that you ordered the 300

now, Kondo Gakuon might be a different matter.

have compared Kondo Neiro 2a3 to the AN empress 2a3 silver, both just did this slightly differently, and an U.K. based 14w GM70 was better than the Neiro on all fronts, when paired with the same M7 preamp

It's strange but I have never liked the M7 preamp - Personally, I feel like every time I audition it in a system it is the weak link. I know it's pretty famous but I am not the only one - I see them on the second-hand market a fair bit here. I had a quick look at Kondo's website and I do not see the M7 listed so I suspect it may be that it has not been able to stand the test of time.

 

[bonzo75]

It's strange but I have never liked the M7 preamp - Personally, I feel like every time I audition it in a system it is the weak link. I know it's pretty famous but I am not the only one - I see them on the second-hand market a fair bit here. I had a quick look at Kondo's website and I do not see the M7 listed so I suspect it may be that it has not been able to stand the test of time.

i don’t like the M7 (M1000 and G1000 for example is awesome), but I just wanted to bring it here that it was the common pre, and yet the non Kondo GM70 sounded better.

 

[Tonari]

both NAF 2a3 and airtight 300b sound much better on O96 compared to the Overture, or compared to airtight EL34.

so not surprised that you ordered the 300

now, Kondo Gakuon might be a different matter.

have compared Kondo Neiro 2a3 to the AN empress 2a3 silver, both just did this slightly differently, and an U.K. based 14w GM70 was better than the Neiro on all fronts, when paired with the same M7 preamp

Agree with the comment. Always good to remind that the amp/speakers matching is of the utmost importance.
Actually, I am not planning to replace my Overture (pm-2i model) by any other product. I think it is a piece of art. But getting a AN UK amp beside it, why not?
And this is very interesting that your are bringing to the discussion other type of tube amplifications. As a matter of fact I also owned a pair of GM70 monoblocks and I have just sold a pair of 300B. Both from old local brand/DIY construction. Not made with the highest grade of components but with a lot of passion for music and its reproduction.
My experience with tubes is actually not so rich because of the fact that I was "lost" for about 10 years with SS amplifications . With regards to 300B amplification everything has been said already about the magic it distills. But based on my limited experience and also based on what people I know are doing with 300B amplification I had come to the conclusion (for myself) that ideally it should be dedicated to middle and high frequencies. This is definitely not so with the Overture and more interestingly it seems not to be so neither with the Tonmeister. Which is for me a kind of revelation: A 300B amplifier so strong and articulated in the bass !! Plus the transparency, dynamic, tonality, image depth... Nothing missing to my ears with this Tonmeister... but nothing missing to my ears with the Overture also. This is my modest answer to the question of this thread!!
Now regarding GM70 I will not develop in this thread, may be in your SET thread one of this day. What I will just say is that it is also limited with regards to the bass response but the rest is all magic. I have yet to hear so much weight to the instruments with another amp, but again I am just back to tube amplification...