Audio Note UK vs Audio Japan Sonic Differences

Richard Austen

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Jun 2, 2020
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Yes, Now Kevin uses SJS instead of Kondo.

Yes Kevin said he does not like the new generation of Kondo but I doubt SJS be better than Kondo. Actually I think this is related to business not the sound.
Different dealers make decisions all the time about what they can sell to their markets. What sells well in one market may not in another and much of this has to do with the kind of dealer it is. I dealt mainly with Soundhounds in Victoria BC - the owner Terry Crabbe was successful for 40+ years until his passing while many other boutique dealers went belly up. One reason was that his store had tens of thousands of records and LPs and he had orders for more coming in every week because he actually listened to music. He carried a lot of brands but also brought in everyone else's gear to try out. He or members of his team attended every CES on the lookout to improve.

He carried lines to sell (McIntosh/B&W) and carried lines he liked personally that he knew would not sell as well. And he would be honest if people would ask him how he felt about the lines he carried. Mcinstosh = "soulless corporation" but it keeps the lights on - none of the people working there owned any of it - this is carried to sell and to stay in business.

He noted that 90% of the people who walk through the door were presold by looks and reviews - that's why all the dealers in BC had magazines on the tables with pages open to the reviews of the stuff they carried. Hi-Fi Center in downtown Vancouver even had the B&W award plaques for Speaker of the year or Eidtor's choice. When I asked the guy there if they heard of Line Magnetic - the first line out of his mouth was "what's the margin?" and the second line was "are they well known?" - Sound quality? not interested. Value for money? Not interested. They need to make X dollars and need to sell X number per week.

I get it - Vancouver is a darn expensive city - the massive big-box chains nearby both went out of business unable to sell enough Denon/Marantz/Yamaha/Pioneer so the boutique guy has it tough. Soundhounds in Victoria had it easier since they were there forever and had a more locked-in lease agreement. And since they carried so much gear there was no sales pressure to push any product on people. And again 90% of people already know what they want before ever listening.

Here in Hong Kong I spoke to a dealer who sells Kharma and showed me three shops on the same floor that he owns - including Kondo. We chatted for a bit and he was telling me about the rich Chinese customers (from Mainland China not Hong Kong) who buy the massive Kharma speakers and Kondo gear along with Burmeister/Goldmund/Orpheus and dozens of others. He noted that most of them just buy this stuff to show off their wealth - they don't actually listen to any of it. "What's the most expensive speaker that is famous?" - They buy it. He then has to get a crane to lift in through the outside windows because some of the speakers won't fit in the lift. He showed me pictures of the set-ups and they buy these million-dollar speakers and expensive amps - put them in a terrible position in a massive room - walk their guests through and say "Look at my $ 2 million stereo - then they walk to the next acoustically awful room and say "look at my second $2 million dollar stereo.

To be fair - the dealer noted that these stereos pale in comparison to how much these guys spend on a watch or their dozens of cars. Still, it is funny when they buy a Clearaudio Statement II turntable without actually owning any records. The point is it's really expensive and it looks really pretty.

Human hearing is a depreciating ability - with time the ears get worse. However, generally speaking, we have more money the older we get. Buying expensive audio seems to me to be more about trying to capture our youth so that if we spend enough money that will magically make our ears better/younger making us better younger. Or it's a dick-waving exercise (usually from the guys with an inferiority complex) that is rampant in Asia where those who die with the most toys win. Perhaps a midlife (if midlife is 50s/60s) crisis purchase for people afraid to ride a Harley and who already own their show-off car. Asia is a bit different because it is more public transport oriented so to show off it must be stuff inside the home and on your wrist.

Getting back to Kondo what I was a bit surprised to see was all the discontinued items and now a complete lack of choice offered by them.
They have 4 power amps - The Ongaku they list as a power amp but it is an integrated amp first. two of them are 211s and one is Parallel 300B monoblocks and one is push-pull EL34.

No 2a3 or 45 or DHT 300B

They only offer one integrated amp in their integrate amp section and it is an EL34. So they don't even offer an integrated SE amp offering?

They have discontinued
  • EGON
  • NEIRO
  • NEIRO V1
  • NEIRO V2
  • KASSAI
  • KASSAI SILVER
  • BARANSU
  • SHINRI
  • KAGEKI
  • KYOUEN
  • GINREI
  • KEGON-m
  • KSL-6V6
  • X-60
  • KSL-NEIRO
  • KSL-NEIRO/LINE
  • GAKUON
  • SHINDEN
  • KSL-KEGON
  • GAKUON-II
  • Kagura
  • SOUGA
Will you be able to get replacement parts for all their discontinued items or will it be like Mark Levinson and you're stuck with an expensive paperweight?

The fact is people have strong preferences for tube types and designs - they love their 2a3 more than 211 or 300B - many folks who own Horn speakers especially love the 45 output tube.

I was surprised to see all these discontinued amplifiers. I mean I get that when you can't sell them you have to put them out to pasture but still their discontinued list is huge. And what they sell doesn't seem to offer much choice.

The resale argument is kind of odd because anyone who can afford a premium priced product isn't going to want to buy a discontinued model - when a product is discontinued it is generally viewed as "broken" in some manner as it needed to be fixed. I don't think people shopping at the Luxury end of the market give a shit about resale value.

Consider Mercedes, Audi, BMW - all three have absolutely crappy resale value because everyone knows the cars fall apart once the warranty is up - their abject money pits to repair - they fail often and cost a bomb to repair. Lexus is the only exception where you get Toyota quality reliability on regular fuel no less and premium dealer experience. They also have by FAR the best resale value. For people who don't care that much about the driving experience they're easily the best choice - however - if you DO care about the driving experience and $70k to you is the same as $20 is to me then WTF do you care about repair bills - you want to show your friends that you own "German engineering" and has the right name badge on the hood. Mercedes is Mercedes while Lexus is just a glorified Toyota. Indeed, part of the appeal of Mercedes is that you can tell people that your engine blew and you forked over $20,000 to fix it. The repair cost more than a Honda Civic.

In audio - if you want resale value you need to buy an amplifier, say, that never gets discontinued or replaced. I paid $1850 Canadian ($1350 USD with today's currency conversion)for my Audio Note OTO Phono SE (well before becoming a reviewer). This amp (with the Phono stage) of this generation sells for $2300-$2500 USD ($3,150 - $3,400 Canadian) - nearly double what I paid 20 years ago!

Back in 2003 I also bought AN J/SPe speakers - I sold them in 2016 and got $417 more than I paid for them new - and in ugly black and a bit banged up in the back so 7/10 condition. I sold my TT2 turntable for $600 more than I paid. A turntable!

This works because they don't get discontinued and the new prices keep rising. It doesn't work at the top end but that's because the people who buy $250,000 products and are largely buying to impress other people and there are far fewer people who can afford those price tiers. The people who CAN afford those price tiers don't shop secondhand. They won't sully themselves buying a second-hand Ongaku - only poor unwashed masses buy second-hand. If I am a rich guy - I buy new not someone else's cast off.
 
Last edited:

adrianywu

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2021
578
680
108
57
Munich 2014 setup was:
CEC TL0 Transport
Kondo NOS tube DAC
Kondo Pre
Kondo 300b push pull amplifier
Living Voice Horn + sub (4 tower)
Kondo cables
AC power from Victron Inverter 3000 with Lead Acid battery (off grid)
4 Speakers were properly positioned

Kevin is very professional and knows how to setup his system.
Yes, we have more or less the same set up in HK, except the CEC and battery supply.
 

adrianywu

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2021
578
680
108
57
Different dealers make decisions all the time about what they can sell to their markets. What sells well in one market may not in another and much of this has to do with the kind of dealer it is. I dealt mainly with Soundhounds in Victoria BC - the owner Terry Crabbe was successful for 40+ years until his passing while many other boutique dealers went belly up. One reason was that his store had tens of thousands of records and LPs and he had orders for more coming in every week because he actually listened to music. He carried a lot of brands but also brought in everyone else's gear to try out. He or members of his team attended every CES on the lookout to improve.

He carried lines to sell (McIntosh/B&W) and carried lines he liked personally that he knew would not sell as well. And he would be honest if people would ask him how he felt about the lines he carried. Mcinstosh = "soulless corporation" but it keeps the lights on - none of the people working there owned any of it - this is carried to sell and to stay in business.

He noted that 90% of the people who walk through the door were presold by looks and reviews - that's why all the dealers in BC had magazines on the tables with pages open to the reviews of the stuff they carried. Hi-Fi Center in downtown Vancouver even had the B&W award plaques for Speaker of the year or Eidtor's choice. When I asked the guy there if they heard of Line Magnetic - the first line out of his mouth was "what's the margin?" and the second line was "are they well known?" - Sound quality? not interested. Value for money? Not interested. They need to make X dollars and need to sell X number per week.

I get it - Vancouver is a darn expensive city - the massive big-box chains nearby both went out of business unable to sell enough Denon/Marantz/Yamaha/Pioneer so the boutique guy has it tough. Soundhounds in Victoria had it easier since they were there forever and had a more locked-in lease agreement. And since they carried so much gear there was no sales pressure to push any product on people. And again 90% of people already know what they want before ever listening.

Here in Hong Kong I spoke to a dealer who sells Kharma and showed me three shops on the same floor that he owns - including Kondo. We chatted for a bit and he was telling me about the rich Chinese customers (from Mainland China not Hong Kong) who buy the massive Kharma speakers and Kondo gear along with Burmeister/Goldmund/Orpheus and dozens of others. He noted that most of them just buy this stuff to show off their wealth - they don't actually listen to any of it. "What's the most expensive speaker that is famous?" - They buy it. He then has to get a crane to lift in through the outside windows because some of the speakers won't fit in the lift. He showed me pictures of the set-ups and they buy these million-dollar speakers and expensive amps - put them in a terrible position in a massive room - walk their guests through and say "Look at my $ 2 million stereo - then they walk to the next acoustically awful room and say "look at my second $2 million dollar stereo.

To be fair - the dealer noted that these stereos pale in comparison to how much these guys spend on a watch or their dozens of cars. Still, it is funny when they buy a Clearaudio Statement II turntable without actually owning any records. The point is it's really expensive and it looks really pretty.

Human hearing is a depreciating ability - with time the ears get worse. However, generally speaking, we have more money the older we get. Buying expensive audio seems to me to be more about trying to capture our youth so that if we spend enough money that will magically make our ears better/younger making us better younger. Or it's a dick-waving exercise (usually from the guys with an inferiority complex) that is rampant in Asia where those who die with the most toys win. Perhaps a midlife (if midlife is 50s/60s) crisis purchase for people afraid to ride a Harley and who already own their show-off car. Asia is a bit different because it is more public transport oriented so to show off it must be stuff inside the home and on your wrist.

Getting back to Kondo what I was a bit surprised to see was all the discontinued items and now a complete lack of choice offered by them.
They have 4 power amps - The Ongaku they list as a power amp but it is an integrated amp first. two of them are 211s and one is Parallel 300B monoblocks and one is push-pull EL34.

No 2a3 or 45 or DHT 300B

They only offer one integrated amp in their integrate amp section and it is an EL34. So they don't even offer an integrated SE amp offering?

They have discontinued
  • EGON
  • NEIRO
  • NEIRO V1
  • NEIRO V2
  • KASSAI
  • KASSAI SILVER
  • BARANSU
  • SHINRI
  • KAGEKI
  • KYOUEN
  • GINREI
  • KEGON-m
  • KSL-6V6
  • X-60
  • KSL-NEIRO
  • KSL-NEIRO/LINE
  • GAKUON
  • SHINDEN
  • KSL-KEGON
  • GAKUON-II
  • Kagura
  • SOUGA
Will you be able to get replacement parts for all their discontinued items or will it be like Mark Levinson and you're stuck with an expensive paperweight?

The fact is people have strong preferences for tube types and designs - they love their 2a3 more than 211 or 300B - many folks who own Horn speakers especially love the 45 output tube.

I was surprised to see all these discontinued amplifiers. I mean I get that when you can't sell them you have to put them out to pasture but still their discontinued list is huge. And what they sell doesn't seem to offer much choice.

The resale argument is kind of odd because anyone who can afford a premium priced product isn't going to want to buy a discontinued model - when a product is discontinued it is generally viewed as "broken" in some manner as it needed to be fixed. I don't think people shopping at the Luxury end of the market give a shit about resale value.

Consider Mercedes, Audi, BMW - all three have absolutely crappy resale value because everyone knows the cars fall apart once the warranty is up - their abject money pits to repair - they fail often and cost a bomb to repair. Lexus is the only exception where you get Toyota quality reliability on regular fuel no less and premium dealer experience. They also have by FAR the best resale value. For people who don't care that much about the driving experience they're easily the best choice - however - if you DO care about the driving experience and $70k to you is the same as $20 is to me then WTF do you care about repair bills - you want to show your friends that you own "German engineering" and has the right name badge on the hood. Mercedes is Mercedes while Lexus is just a glorified Toyota. Indeed, part of the appeal of Mercedes is that you can tell people that your engine blew and you forked over $20,000 to fix it. The repair cost more than a Honda Civic.

In audio - if you want resale value you need to buy an amplifier, say, that never gets discontinued or replaced. I paid $1850 Canadian ($1350 USD with today's currency conversion)for my Audio Note OTO Phono SE (well before becoming a reviewer). This amp (with the Phono stage) of this generation sells for $2300-$2500 USD ($3,150 - $3,400 Canadian) - nearly double what I paid 20 years ago!

Back in 2003 I also bought AN J/SPe speakers - I sold them in 2016 and got $417 more than I paid for them new - and in ugly black and a bit banged up in the back so 7/10 condition. I sold my TT2 turntable for $600 more than I paid. A turntable!

This works because they don't get discontinued and the new prices keep rising. It doesn't work at the top end but that's because the people who buy $250,000 products and are largely buying to impress other people and there are far fewer people who can afford those price tiers. The people who CAN afford those price tiers don't shop secondhand. They won't sully themselves buying a second-hand Ongaku - only poor unwashed masses buy second-hand. If I am a rich guy - I buy new not someone else's cast off.
Hong Kong is heaven if you don't mind buying second hand. The prices are often much cheaper because many audiophiles change their gear more often than their underwear. Whichever speaker or amp is being hyped by magazine reviewers, they want it. Same with cars. In fact, the more expensive the car, the lower the resale value. This is because the cost of the annual road license is based on the size of the engine, and once it goes beyond a certain size, the cost skyrockets. The rich who don't care about cost only buy new cars, second hand car buyers are frugal and don't want these gas guzzlers (on top of that, HK also has the most expensive gas in the world). That's why you see the weird phenomenon like a MB S500 costing less than a S300 of the same vintage second hand.
 
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bonzo75

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Kondo Souga uses 2A3 tubes and still in production. All 300B tubes are DHT as well as 2A3, 211, 45 etc.

it’s surprising that Richard for all his audio note BS doesn’t know this. For a reviewer I would expect it to be basic 101
 
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je2a3

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Apr 25, 2020
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jelabs.blogspot.com
...Western Electric speakers

Wow! This looks like a Western Electric 753A monitor. An earlier version with a super tweeter.
 

morricab

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Kondo Souga uses 2A3 tubes and still in production. All 300B tubes are DHT as well as 2A3, 211, 45 etc.
I think it has been discontinued
 

Zeotrope

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The question is too big since both brands make equipment that sounds different from each other within the brand largely based upon their level and tube type - a great 300B can sound great but so can a great 2a3 or 211 or 45 but they will all sound different from each other and you may very well like the 45 over the 300B from AN UK even though they are at the same "level" in terms of parts. It's important to try both brands outside of their speakers. Kondo has gone through several speaker designs over the years and AN UK is firmly committed to their upgraded Snells.

AN Japan made several products - the International partner "Peter Qvortrup" helped voice the products and named all of them. He picked over the best-sounding units and rejected the others designed by Kondo. The first 211s were noisy and actually got a bad review in the US press. AN UK then sent their engineers to Japan to "fix" the high noise levels and put the original 211 (later Named Ongaku by Qvortrup) and it was often felt that it was the best-sounding amplifier in the world with an industry-setting price for tube amps. AN Japan went more to parallel Single Ended while AN UK has dabbled with that but seems to have mostly stayed with SET. Kondo-San passed away many years ago so the current Kondo is now likely something a fair bit different. I liked the Kagura II monoblocks at a show a while back.

I would say one thing to watch for is that Kondo/ AN Japan plays at the upper end of the price spectrum while AN UK plays more to the entry and middle level.

Kondo has silver-wired transformers and internal wiring so when looking to make a comparison you will need to compare Level 4 at the minimum and more like Level 5 AN UK to Kondo or AN Japan. Level 3 AN UK is all Copper wired - Level 4 is a mix of silver and copper and Level 5 is silver. I would also try and keep the preamp and power amp together from both brands when auditioning. Then try them into your favourite speakers.
This is certainly one perspective, but not the perspective shared by Kondo Japan. Go and read the message from Kondo’s founder (it’s somewhere here). He CERTAINLY did not feel that Peter ’helped design or voice the products’. I happen to agree with Kondo, not AN; but you can make up your own mind. My point here is that this is Peter’s POV, not Kondo’s.
 

Zeotrope

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both NAF 2a3 and airtight 300b sound much better on O96 compared to the Overture, or compared to airtight EL34.

so not surprised that you ordered the 300

now, Kondo Gakuon might be a different matter.

have compared Kondo Neiro 2a3 to the AN empress 2a3 silver, both just did this slightly differently, and an U.K. based 14w GM70 was better than the Neiro on all fronts, when paired with the same M7 preamp
The Kondo (Japan) Souga sounds a lot better than the Neiro.
 

bonzo75

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The Kondo (Japan) Souga sounds a lot better than the Neiro.

i found a locally made GM70 for 10k to sound better than both Kondo Neiro and audio note silver empress in the same system.

i don’t like the overture, M7 either. I don’t like AN Jinro either.

I tried ongaku on its own, it was not as good, but I have been advised it makes a big difference when run with the Kondo preamp. The M1000 and G1000 are both excellent. M77 and G70 might be too I haven’t heard. So if I was in the market for Kondo, I would first get their preamp, then run the compares. So far, the Gakuon mk2 seems to be the best of their amps, along with the Kagura (all assuming well rolled NOS) that I have heard and compared, both are excellent. I would like to compare to ongaku with the preamp
 

morricab

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i found a locally made GM70 for 10k to sound better than both Kondo Neiro and audio note silver empress in the same system.

i don’t like the overture, M7 either. I tried ongaku on its own, it was not as good, but I have been advised it makes a big difference when run with the Kondo preamp. The M1000 and G1000 are both excellent. M77 and G70 might be too I haven’t heard. So if I was in the market for Kondo, I would first get their preamp, then run the compares. So far, the Gakuon mk2 seems to be the best of their amps, along with the Kagura (all assuming well rolled NOS) that I have heard and compared. I would like to compare to ongaku with the preamp
Didn’t Gian think that Souga was the best one he had heard from Kondo?
 

bonzo75

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Didn’t Gian think that Souga was the best one he had heard from Kondo?

Yes. I only compared souga on Diesis it did not sound good like Gakuon mk2 or Kagura so I did not add souga to above comments. It might be sound appropriate on different speakers
 

morricab

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Yes. I only compared souga on Diesis it did not sound good like Gakuon mk2 or Kagura so I did not add souga to above comments. It might be sound appropriate on different speakers
Probably needs something more sensitive?
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Do you think Diesis are good transducers ??
What I have heard in Munich was very impressive with Diesis...can't say that about most of what you liked there...
 

Audiocrack

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Aug 10, 2012
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i found a locally made GM70 for 10k to sound better than both Kondo Neiro and audio note silver empress in the same system.

i don’t like the overture, M7 either. I don’t like AN Jinro either.

I tried ongaku on its own, it was not as good, but I have been advised it makes a big difference when run with the Kondo preamp. The M1000 and G1000 are both excellent. M77 and G70 might be too I haven’t heard. So if I was in the market for Kondo, I would first get their preamp, then run the compares. So far, the Gakuon mk2 seems to be the best of their amps, along with the Kagura (all assuming well rolled NOS) that I have heard and compared, both are excellent. I would like to compare to ongaku with the preamp
I suppose you mean cq prefer the (push pull) Gakuoh mk ii (with 300b valves) and not the (single ended) Gakuon mk ii (with 211 tubes), Ked. The latter is no longer in production.
 
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Juiced

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i've never heard ANUK but i can confidently say Kondo Overture pm-2i sounding better then a Shindo Monbirson (last gen)+Shindo Montile cv391 combo paired with LV speakers.

Shindo are known to have the best sounding preamps out there..
 
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gian60

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Apr 17, 2016
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The Kondo (Japan) Souga sounds a lot better than the Neiro.
Souga is the new Kageki
Same like Neiro with Silver trans
I had 2 Souga and compared one with Kageki
Better sound and much more energy and dynamic
Now Kondo stop the production of Souga
I dont know why
 

gian60

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Apr 17, 2016
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For me the best amp from Kondo is Souga but i love 2A3 tube
After ongaku,not extented on high like Souga but very good midbass/midhigh
Gakuon and Gakuon II not like
I had 2 times and listened in 3 friends system but little roll iff and midbass too full
 

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