Audiophile Sonic Terms Redux

[Amir]

Vladimir Lamm studies helped him to find a model between his preference of stereo sound and an objective model, like many other designers. Currently all I need is finding someone who prefers the ML3 sound and wants to pay for it.

Very few designers are like Lamm, most designers just care about measurements

 

[Amir]

Well, we just can guess. Floyd Toole did a serious study, that was published, scrutinized and can be discussed - he created the sometimes called "Harman sound" that, as could be expected, many people prefer.

All we know from "rumors" around Valdimir Lamm is that he has developed a "model" on human hearing and it is the basis of the "Lamm sound". He was the only person speaking for the company and unique known researcher/designer, I consider this type of sound his preferred sound, that many audiophiles also prefer. But I am always happy to learn (and ask questions, BTW ).

I have read floyd book
Please let me know which page is your reference?

 

[Rensselaer]

Threatened? Huh?

No I do not chase measurements with money. As I suspected, this goes nowhere.

“And those who just want to argue”

 

[microstrip]

Let me clarify it for you then. I was trying to not write or quote too much, but… I am in 100% agreement with Andy Moor’s thoughts as expressed in the Jeff Day site, entitled “Meditations on High Fidelity…” as referenced earlier in this thread:

“Every solder joint, every plug, socket and switch, every resistor and capacitor alters signal, they blunt dynamics and reduce resolution and presence”. “Large complex systems kill dynamics”.

use only what you must and use parts proven to sound better than other parts of the same measurements, example, he used NOS Brimar and Mullard valves instead of Sovtek (of the same rating) because they sound better. He wired them in triode configuration because “…no need for multiple gain stages”. He said that solid state rectification, transistors, metal film resistors and too much silver dries out the sound.

He uses an open baffle speaker cabinet as he says a closed cabinet allows energy to bounce back and affect/smear the sound.

All of his points I have learned through experience are valid yet I can not recall a single review that measured these criteria. He said metal film resistors can dry the sound out, so what is the measured difference between a 0.25 watt, 500micro-ohm, 500 volt metal film resistor and a 0.25 watt, 500 mico-ohm, 500 volt carbon composite resistor? A metal oxide resistor? A wire-wound resistor?

Thanks for posting such interesting, but dogmatic and IMO unfounded sentences. In this hobby, everything makes a difference, it is well known - nothing new. But passionate rules such as "…no need for multiple gain stages”. He said that solid state rectification, transistors, metal film resistors and too much silver dries out the sound." say it all.

Fortunately most reviewers understand that such individual specific matters, such as component type are too complex to be analyzed in a review and usually just refer to manufacturer available information to inform consumers.

BTW Martin Colloms published some interesting articles on sound of resistors and capacitors in the 80's or 90's, not sure anymore, even ranking their behavior in the particular system he used.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I told the real behaviour of an audio system is not so simple and you can not analyse it just only by simple measurements.

Surely. It is known since long that simple measurements have very limited value to access sound quality. But it is not the fault of the Maxwell equations.

Veladimir Lamm wrote some articles about his ideas.

No he did not. He just wrote some vague sentences to be used in marketing - as many others BTW. He clearly said he did not want to share his ideas to protect his intellectual property.

 

[microstrip]

Very few designers are like Lamm, most designers just care about measurements

True, very few designers are like Lamm.

The second part is false, IMO. Most designers care about measurements and sound quality.

 

[microstrip]

I have read floyd book
Please let me know which page is your reference?

Several references on the book concerning the different needs of sound absorption, close listening , envelopment and sound level in professional work.

I quote just page 138 "The notion that monitoring the recording process is significantly different from
recreational listening has already been introduced and that different criteria for lateral reflections apply (see Section 8.1 and Kishinaga et al. (1979)). There it was concluded that in the creation of recordings, engineers preferred to listen in rooms with attenuated lateral reflections." ,

There are several others to add to this one.

 

[Al M.]

“And those who just want to argue”

Yes, that seems to be you.

 

[Carlos269]

what I said was about audio system analysis by fourier transform.

Ok I see where you are coming from and I think that we can agree on this. To make my point clearer let me word it another way: every component has a transfer function; sure their transfer function may change as components age, are burned in, or wear out (tubes for instance) but if you look at components at any moment in time, they have a specific transfer function, or in audiophile lingo a “sonic signature”. I believe that the transfer function of each component is very telling in what impact it has on the spectral content/distribution or tonal balance. Like any other transfer function, these can be analyzed and characterized with a step function stimuli.This is how room acoustics are measured and analyzed.

Do you think our hearing system is fully modeled by science?

Here again I agree with you that the auditory system is a very powerful, complex, and sophisticated system. Is everything known by science? No, but enough is to address the phenomena that we regularly refer to in this hobby.

 

[Rensselaer]

Thanks for posting such interesting, but dogmatic and IMO unfounded sentences. In this hobby, everything makes a difference, it is well known - nothing new. But passionate rules such as "…no need for multiple gain stages”. He said that solid state rectification, transistors, metal film resistors and too much silver dries out the sound." say it all.

Fortunately most reviewers understand that such individual specific matters, such as component type are too complex to be analyzed in a review and usually just refer to manufacturer available information to inform consumers.

BTW Martin Colloms published some interesting articles on sound of resistors and capacitors in the 60's or 90's, not sure anymore, even ranking their behavior in the particular system he used.

Martin Colloms I believe had a megawatt Krell amplifier as his reference (played through Wilson’s) so was no doubt insensitive (or unaware) to the adverse effects of transistors, and complicated crossover networks.

 

[Elliot G.]

Most designers care about measurements and sound quality.

I agree and I don't know one who didn't or doesnt however that does not mean that what they designed sounds good.
Do all designers use the same tools, same test gear, anoxic chamber, same software, same references? The answer is no yet all of them will claim to be correct and to produce the most natural best sounding etc.
IMO they are not playing the same game or playing by the same rules, or even listening for the same thing.
Frozen Pizza , Domino's Pizza, Cafeteria Pizza, New York City Pizza, New Haven Pizza and a Pizza made in Italy are all PIzza or are they?

Karen is correct in the way that they are not, and we are not communicating in the same language. Words matter and what they means really matters but in the audio Industry they have become less and less meaningfull.

 

[microstrip]

Martin Colloms I believe had a megawatt Krell amplifier as his reference (played through Wilson’s) so was no doubt insensitive (or unaware) to the adverse effects of transistors, and complicated crossover networks.

Unfortunately you believed wrong - and it seems you do not know about Martin Colloms vast experience with amplifiers along several decades. He published an extremely interesting side by side comparison between a Krell and a Cary 805 SET in the 90's. Some people seem to believe that the high-end started with WBF gossip ...

I suggest you debate transistors and complicated crossvers with Mike Lavigne. He should have a few things to tell you about it ... Although the crossover of the Soundlabs is very complicated I am currently using tubes.

BTW, several Lamm products use solid state rectification, transistors and metal film resistors, although Vladimir Lamm strongly hated silver cables. Did you ask Ypsilon to manufacture your top phono unit with copper wiring? They promote the use special pure silver annealed wiring!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I suggest you debate transistors and complicated crossvers with Mike Lavigne. He should have a few things to tell you about it ...

thanks a hell of a lot.

 

[dcathro]

BTW Martin Colloms published some interesting articles on sound of resistors and capacitors in the 60's or 90's, not sure anymore, even ranking their behavior in the particular system he used.

I believe the first article in HFN was in the mid 80s and was on in line resistors. The second article was in Critic about 10 years ago on cross over resistors - I recall that the Duelunds and Mundorf supremes came out on top.

 

[Rensselaer]

Unfortunately you believed wrong - and it seems you do not know about Martin Colloms vast experience with amplifiers along several decades. He published an extremely interesting side by side comparison between a Krell and a Cary 805 SET in the 90's. Some people seem to believe that the high-end started with WBF gossip ...

I suggest you debate transistors and complicated crossvers with Mike Lavigne. He should have a few things to tell you about it ... Although the crossover of the Soundlabs is very complicated I am currently using tubes.

BTW, several Lamm products use solid state rectification, transistors and metal film resistors, although Vladimir Lamm strongly hated silver cables. Did you ask Ypsilon to manufacture your top phono unit with copper wiring? They promote the use special pure silver annealed wiring!

My Ypsilon is the copper version.

 

[microstrip]

I believe the first article in HFN was in the mid 80s and was on in line resistors. The second article was in Critic about 10 years ago on cross over resistors - I recall that the Duelunds and Mundorf supremes came out on top.

There was a second article on capacitors in HiFi News in 1985 with two parts , including a technical report on aspects such as dielectric absorption, vibration, pulse behavior - I found the pdf of the technical part in my archives.
Probably we can find the articles somewhere in the net - the DIY community frequently refers to them.




Edit - just found them - if interested google "a passive role" "martin colloms"

 

[tima]

All we know from "rumors" around Valdimir Lamm is that he has developed a "model" on human hearing and it is the basis of the "Lamm sound". He was the only person speaking for the company and unique known researcher/designer, I consider this type of sound his preferred sound, that many audiophiles also prefer.

Absent some contrary information -- which I know you do not have -- there is no reason to reject Lamm's account of his own work as revealed in his own writing and in interviews. His model of human hearing is grounded in blind and double blind testing of circuit topologies with hundreds of human listeners. Iow, it is based on what his tests revealed about how people hear. We are physically built a certain way. We cannot change how we hear. Lamm's choices are not the "sound he preferred" but the sound of equipment designed from what his studies revealed about how people hear.

 

[microstrip]

Absent some contrary information -- which I know you do not have -- there is no reason to reject Lamm's account of his own work as revealed in his own writing and in interviews. His model of human hearing is grounded in blind and double blind testing of circuit topologies with hundreds of human listeners. Iow, it is based on what his tests revealed about how people hear. We are physically built a certain way. We cannot change how we hear. Lamm's choices are not the "sound he preferred" but the sound of equipment designed from what his studies revealed about how people hear.

Thanks for confirming my previous post. The fact that five general lines without any solid referable content summarize all we know about the subject can't make Lamm an exception in audio designing. Probably we disagree on what is meant by the word preference in stereo, I use it in the classical sense found in stereo audio research, as I have previously explained.

If someone goes against all science and empirical knowledge on a subject he must provide evidence of his findings. Peter Walker designed an unique planar speaker that he claimed was a point source - the ESL63. He created a solid mathematical and physical model to design it, that was published in an excellent article, built it and provided measurements to show it, that were repeated by others. He got the respect of all the community.

There is a difference between being an audio designer and an audio scientist. I respect both, but do not confound them.

 

[PeterA]

Absent some contrary information -- which I know you do not have -- there is no reason to reject Lamm's account of his own work as revealed in his own writing and in interviews. His model of human hearing is grounded in blind and double blind testing of circuit topologies with hundreds of human listeners. Iow, it is based on what his tests revealed about how people hear. We are physically built a certain way. We cannot change how we hear. Lamm's choices are not the "sound he preferred" but the sound of equipment designed from what his studies revealed about how people hear.

Tim, Vladimir Lamm also drew on his own experience playing percussion in an orchestra in Russia. He used this personal experience plus the mathematical formulas he developed from studying the hearing of his test subjects. This he called natural sound. He understood the goal. Knowing his target, he set about designing the original ML2 amplifier.

 

[Rensselaer]

Unfortunately you believed wrong - and it seems you do not know about Martin Colloms vast experience with amplifiers along several decades. He published an extremely interesting side by side comparison between a Krell and a Cary 805 SET in the 90's. Some people seem to believe that the high-end started with WBF gossip ...

I suggest you debate transistors and complicated crossvers with Mike Lavigne. He should have a few things to tell you about it ... Although the crossover of the Soundlabs is very complicated I am currently using tubes.

BTW, several Lamm products use solid state rectification, transistors and metal film resistors, although Vladimir Lamm strongly hated silver cables. Did you ask Ypsilon to manufacture your top phono unit with copper wiring? They promote the use special pure silver annealed wiring!

I can’t find that review to fact check, but to my recollection Martin was so taken with the hollow state Cary’s that a pair took the place of his solid state Krell behemoths as his reference system, no? If true, that kind of supports what I had said doesn’t it?