"Black Backgrounds" in Music Reproduction?

[microstrip]

If you open the link micro send you can read what Mike Lavigne thinks of it as well

And others as well ... I surely had to open it to know what it contained ...

 

[microstrip]

Ambiance of the recording

You see, some people say that good digital recordings played in adequate conditions have proper ambiance, not added artifacts than enhance spaciousness. Independently of being tube or solid state, probably not at Munich. Too much beer ...

 

[PeterA]

Black background is more a sterile unnatural artefact. .


I heard so many systems in munich and else where playing digital which had a black sterile background .

A lot of solid state does the same kind of thing

Also,
If you open the link micro send you can read what Mike Lavigne thinks of it as well

I HATE The Term “Black Background!” - Audionirvana.org

Black background corresponds to nothing that I hear live whether it’s Carnegie or a jazz club. Nada. The only thing that dims at a concert is the lighting over the audience. One in fact should hear when noise levels drop an increase in openness, airiness and a see thru quality (not to mention...

www.audionirvana.org

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Black background is more a sterile unnatural artefact. .
I heard so many systems in munich and else where playing digital which had a black sterile background .

Nope. The term is a problem because, ideally, there is no system noise at all, so it ain't black or any other color. Not sterile or unnatural neither.
OTOH, when I think of "black background" operationally, it is what exists just before the realization of the ambience of the space on the recording that I hear quite naturally at the lead-in as the performance begins.

 

[gleeds]

For audiophiles who value the sonic attribute of "black backgrounds" what does this term mean to you?

How do you seek to achieve the sonic objective of black backgrounds?

When I go to Walt Disney Concert Hall I do not hear black backgrounds. I hear a fairly high level of ambient noise, including attendees shuffling around in their chairs, coughing, whispering, sniffling, musicians turning pages, etc.

Out of my list of possible objectives of high-end audio I personally seek to "recreate the sound of an original musical event" or to "create a sound that seems live." Neither of these objectives prioritizes black backgrounds, because I do not hear black backgrounds at Walt Disney Concert Hall.

What do you think about the audiophile attribute objective of black backgrounds?

Do you care about black backgrounds?

If you care about black backgrounds, how do you achieve them?

Ron, this is a great post and an under-discussed subject! I'm in year-end. My view (and the creators I work with) is as follows:

A "black background " refers to all elements of the playback chain having the lowest possible noise floor. The goal is to allow each instrument/note/voice to be delineated from the other. Subjectively, it is as if the "space between the notes" is silent, with each instrument clearly defined in time and space on its cushion of air.

Bias aside, I believe you have experienced WestminsterLab components exhibiting this quality. I also experienced this at Steve's Olympus server/Horizon 360 DAC demo, where when switching between USB and XDMI, there was a dramatic reduction in the noise floor and, therefore, correspondingly, more space, ease, and engagement. While visiting Robert Harley's listening room, I also heard this silence between the notes on several turntables, notably AJ Conti's Transcendence turntable with Superarm.

To be clear and in agreement with other posts, we are not discussing ambient noise heard in a concert hall, except in the reproduction of live recordings, in which case those noises should be reproduced with the same clarity the recording engineer intended. Studio recordings are another matter, albeit page turns and taps on the podium by the conductor are a part of the musical experience and, again, should be heard as the engineer intended.

 

[Al M.]

You see, some people say that good digital recordings played in adequate conditions have proper ambiance, not added artifacts than enhance spaciousness. Independently of being tube or solid state, probably not at Munich. Too much beer ...

That is what I am hearing too from good digital. Proper acoustic space as it is "lit up" by the sound of instruments playing or voices singing, but without an artificially enhanced sense of "air" that would go beyond what you typically would hear in a concert venue.

Yes, some digital cannot do that, either on its own or in the system/room context within which it is reproducing music, but that is not inherent to the digital medium itself.

 

[tima]

Right, but the discussion could have ended on the first page.

heh.
says the guy with 18 posts in the thread

 

[Al M.]

I don’t think so. But they are something.
They were either the early reflections, or later reflections that were tall enough to be attributed to being a new signal.

Maybe we should call them musical wraiths?
A wraith, or ghost, is not black, but not exactly a solid thing. (Usually grey)
I can easily picture you having success here.

I was never able to get the quietness until the speakers got pulled out into the room far enough to (maybe) get the early reflections far enough delayed to the point where they did not create the wraiths.
Recently had to get new speaker that can go nearer to the wall because of WAF… so I am starting again.

How far out into the room did you have the old speakers, and how far out into the room are the new speakers?

What do you mean by getting the early reflections far enough delayed? Early reflections from the front wall?

My speaker drivers are now 8 feet out from the front wall.

 

[hopkins]

heh.
says the guy with 18 posts in the thread

19, smart ass...

 

[Holmz]

How far out into the room did you have the old speakers, and how far out into the room are the new speakers?

The speaker placement was a constant WAF complaint. usually 3’ to a meter was the minimum sweet-spot. But 4-5 feet also worked out well. so there was the minimum, and then after that was trying to hit some node or anti-node.

I remember one day I said, “listen to this,” as the sound was coming from beyond the front wall.
The Haus-Frau said, “That doesn’t sound right, I can’t even hear the speakers, it is like the sound is beyond the wall.”
I said, “Yeah isn’t it nice?”
She said, “I’ve never not heard speakers before.”
But she was always wanting them to be closer to the wall, than the speakers wanted to be.

The new speakers are designed to be able to be closer to the wall.
They should be here soon, I guess I’ll need to check the tracking.

What do you mean by getting the early reflections far enough delayed? Early reflections from the front wall?

I think so, or side wall… but the floor and ceilings are also players.
The front wall is a primary one though.
I think that the literature says something like 5 milliseconds is the minimum. So that is like 2.5 feet to the wall as the minimum, and then the round trip is 5’ (which is assuming that the speed of sound is 1000’/second… amongst friends)

My speaker drivers are now 8 feet out from the front wall.

^Noice^!

The new place is 100 years old, and high ceilings and timber floors and horsehair plaster over brick.
All the rooms are smaller.

 

[andromedaaudio]

You see, some people say that good digital recordings played in adequate conditions have proper ambiance, not added artifacts than enhance spaciousness. Independently of being tube or solid state, probably not at Munich. Too much beer ...

No , ambiance reproduction is a thing digital has lost already during the digitization proces of the music not even wadax can recover that .

Now for electronic music and organ i do prefer digital over tape .

But ultimately tape is the best / most natural .
Digital has a unnatural cleanness which most audiophiles seem to love

 

[Chop]

Thank you, Ron, but it’s really just a simple observation from going to live music. When I attended rehearsals at the Vienna opera for five days in an empty hall, my mentor host told me to pay attention to the energy in the room before during, and after the notes were made on the instruments.

We are talking about acoustic instruments being played in a real space and then being recorded. If that information, all or most of it, makes it to the recording, I want to hear it in my room. It supports realism and natural sound.

If that information is filtered out of the presentation, the experience has changed. As we have discussed on this thread and elsewhere, we make our choices based on subjective observation and personal preferences. Know your target and figure out how to get there.

I assume that the reviewers who claim to hear inky black backgrounds are making that observation by playing a variety of recordings. That tells me the component being evaluated is acting as a filter as Tim wrote. Otherwise, the reviewer would state that he hears a more accurate portrayal of ambience from recordings made in real spaces and blacker backgrounds from recordings made in booths. But what they seem to consistently write is that it is a characteristic of the component being reviewed where everything has that same blackness, and it is blacker than last year’s model. I suppose that it’s very useful information for the person interested in the component. Reading that report will either turn him on or it will turn him off.

I think this (my bold) is a more relevant goal than seeking a black background. If the system creates more "realistic" dynamic contrast between the instrument and the environment then a black background is far less important.

 

[microstrip]

No , ambiance reproduction is a thing digital has lost already during the digisation proces of the music not even wadax can recover that .

Now for electronic music and organ i do prefer digital over tape .

But ultimately tape is the best / most natural .
Digital has a unnatural cleanness which most audiophiles seem to love

I suspect your speakers are not able to show the fine detail of the best of digital ...

Please tell me if you if do not feel ambiance in this fantastic recording of the Vespro della beate VIrgine. (Challenge Classics - I owned and admired it for a long time before finding who recorded it a couple of years ago) .

Can you list me three easily available recordings you use as references for ambiance?

 

[wil]

No , ambiance reproduction is a thing digital has lost already during the digisation proces of the music not even wadax can recover that .

Now for electronic music and organ i do prefer digital over tape .

But ultimately tape is the best / most natural .
Digital has a unnatural cleanness which most audiophiles seem to love

Not true in my experience.

 

[Al M.]

Not true in my experience.

It *used* to be like that in my system, a dry reproduction from digital with little ambience information. But that was before I had things sorted out, and it started to change more than a decade ago. Now my experience is like yours.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I suspect your speakers are not able to show the fine detail of the best of digital ...

You have no tape to compare , from what i read on audiomarkt the thing that you had is broken

 

[microstrip]

View attachment 145882

You have no tape to compare , from what i read on audiomarkt the thing that you had is broken

I now have two other working Studer A80's, this one must go, as well as the one I bought for spares.

Other than confirming that you are unable to post anything relevant, is there any reason to post this image?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I now have two other working Studer A80's, this one must go, as well as the one I bought for spares.

Other than confirming that you are unable to post anything relevant, is there any reason to post this image?

No just your boring predictable comment about my Ls

 

[Lagonda]

No just your boring predictable comment about my Ls

He is definitely both boring and predictable by now, but what else to expect after 21 thousand posts

 

[Kingrex]

I feel there are types of equipment that create a "Black " background. And others that don't, but lack system noise.

I believe a dynamic driver with a massive crossover requiring 1000 watts of power, makes a Black background. The energy required to move the drivers properly to have clean articulate music creates very clean and clear music. But at rest with little signal such as a very quiet passage or between tracks, there is not enough power coming from the amp to get through the crossover and move the highly damped drivers. Its Black.

A horn on the other hand with good electronics can be very quiet. Little his or hum when idling. Hard to do, but can be done. On the other hand, during a quiet passage, so little energy is required to move the tiny diaphragm, nuances are heard that don't come through the same as on the high power dynamic system. The horn does not sound Black. It is more likely to be perceived as noisy. But is it noise, or information retrieval and presentation into the room you don't get in the dynamic system.