"Black Backgrounds" in Music Reproduction?

[Holmz]

Trinity Sessions by the Cowboy Junkies would be a good example of “blackness as ambience” that most of us have heard.

It is not all that common where the Haus-Frau and I like the same music.
^That Cowboy Junkies^ is a great example of music we both like, as well as the blackness.

However “blackness” might be worded as “space” and “quietness”… IME.

It seems like it is back to the “Hippocratic” phrase that @tima threw out in the last week.
Once can have speakers with distortion that kills the “blackness” effect.
Or have electronics that kills it.
And then the room can kill it.
(Certainly bad speaker placement can kill it - at least in all the rooms I have been in.)

That “space and quietness” is something that, when it appears, I know that something nice is really starting to happen.
It is not always there, and it’s way easier to lose that it is to get.

…
The very fact that the OP needed to ask the question what it actually means, a very legitimate question indeed, speaks volumes.

Ha ha “speaks volumes” …

It may also be that the OP has not heard it?
I am not sure that all electronics and all speakers can achieve it - but “I dunno”.
The systems with a “fullness of sound” and ones that are “bright/sharp”, seem to tend to not achieve it easily.
There may be something with “dynamic sounding” that can also run counter to “blackness of sound”.
If people are listening to those sorts of systems, then it might be that they are trading off things that prevent the “quietness”?

 

[tima]

That’s so true. I worked in both film and tv commercial production for the first twenty years of my working life and was usually in an audio recording suite a couple of sessions a week producing voice over and recording for much of it and the sound booth was such a disquieting space to go into. I guess perhaps that lack of spatial location sound sets off warning signals in the psyche a bit like feeling blind to what’s happening in the environment.

Vocals recorded in a booth or boothes have their own non-ambiance and careful post-recording engineering is needed to place those with a band who is not recorded in a booth and make a seamless whole. Listen to the Simon and Ronstadt duet singing "Under African Skies" on original Graceland LP to hear each in their own booth.

 

[Al M.]

IHa ha “speaks volumes” …

It may also be that the OP has not heard it?

Oh yeah, he did. His system is capable of exquisite quietness -- I have heard it myself in person. The only thing that he never heard is the alleged "black background". Neither have I.

It doesn't exist. It's a very unfortunate misnomer if you ask me.

I am not sure that all electronics and all speakers can achieve it - but “I dunno”.

No, not all can achieve it, certainly not to the same degree.

The systems with a “fullness of sound” and ones that are “bright/sharp”, seem to tend to not achieve it easily.

Why would "fullness of sound" be an obstacle? Unamplified live music can both have that and exquisite quietness.

There may be something with “dynamic sounding” that can also run counter to “blackness of sound”.

Yes, exaggerated dynamics caused by artificial hardness on peaks -- basically, shouting.

 

[bonzo75]

Oh yeah, he did. His system is capable of exquisite quietness -- I have heard it myself in person.

Did you hear the current system? I thought you heard the pendragon. His speakers and electronics have both changed since

 

[Al M.]

Did you hear the current system? I thought you heard the pendragon. His speakers and electronics have both changed since

No, indeed I did not, but the question was if he had heard quietness -- he did. Very much so.

 

[bonzo75]

No, indeed I did not, but the question was if he had heard quietness -- he did. Very much so.

Yes I distinctly remember you writing that you liked it and OP immediately announced he was changing speakers because he found them bright

 

[tima]

However “blackness” might be worded as “space” and “quietness”… IME.

Then, say that. It's more informative.

In the concert hall do you hear "velvety black backgrounds?" Do transients "pop like fireworks against a night sky?" Many audiophiles like these sonic characteristics and reviewers do write about them as the quotes (taken from real reviews) suggest. To my ears they are audiophile "virtues," psycho-acoustic idealizations of the live experience that actually do not occur when listening to live acoustic music.

What do you want your stereo system to sound like? If that is a legitimate question for you, you're asking about a reference. Some seemingly reject the question and opt for something pleasing at the moment. That could change after lunch. The circle of continuously changing equipment (I've been through it too) suggests we don't know what we want.

This whole black background thing uses a color word (yes I know, absence of color), a visual word, to describe a 'sonic experiece'. Another example of the paucity of the audiophile vocabularly for describing sound, or the dominance of our visual vocabulary over other senses. When I hear someone say 'black background' I think 'filtered'.

We talk about 'tone color' -- that might be a second hand way to understand timbre. More visual language. We talk about warm and cool sound or warm and cool venues.

Some get hotted up over the 'holographic soundstage'. Sound, well, stereo sound, causing images in our head as a criteria for gauging components and systems. This notion of a holographic soundstage seems different from our almost innate or survival mechanism abillity to geo-locate sound, seemingly without intention. When you close your eyes in the live concert hall do you sense vivid three-dimensional images of performers and instruments?

Look at all the different meanings or understandings in this thread about 'black backgrounds'. We flail at describing sound.

 

[PeterA]

Yes I distinctly remember you writing that you liked it and OP immediately announced he was changing speakers because he found them bright

Bonzo, you are extremely good at somehow remembering small details from the distant past. Perhaps you should go into the search engine business.

The history of Ron’s relatively new former Pendragon system is a volatile one. I can’t keep up with it myself.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Vocals recorded in a booth or boothes have their own non-ambiance and careful post-recording engineering is needed to place those with a band who is not recorded in a booth and make a seamless whole. Listen to the Simon and Ronstadt duet singing "Under African Skies" on original Graceland LP to hear each in their own booth.

Some genres are definitely treated at times with less fidelity by the industry than others and so often it seems that popular music has suffered worse from unnecessary fiddling in the mix than most others.

My preferences have always lent towards alternative music along with (increasingly more) jazz and classical so have been a bit fortunate that much of what I love is acoustic instrument dominated and there is much for me to pick and choose. Though still my choice falls primarily on performance content rather than recording which is good as there is a lot of great music and great performances still being released.

 

[PeterA]

This whole black background thing uses a color word (yes I know, absence of color), a visual word, to describe a 'sonic experiece'. Another example of the paucity of the audiophile vocabularly for describing sound, or the dominance of our visual vocabulary over other senses. When I hear someone say 'black background' I think 'filtered'.

Tim, the filtering analogy is excellent. A component or system or room that presents a black background has filtered out or somehow removed ambiance, that is the ambient information that defined the character or the natural context of the setting in which the recorded performance took place. What remains is a quiet backdrop against which stark images pop.

Filtering is exactly what certain wires and acoustic treatments I once owned did to the presentation I heard from my old system.

 

[hopkins]

Filtering is exactly what certain wires and acoustic treatments I once owned did to the presentation I heard from my old system.

What makes this whole discussion pointless is that people use the same terms with either a positive or negative connotation, depending on who's system they want to praise or criticize. It's a game that many hear play, and it gets a little tiring.

 

[Mgrif104]

What makes this whole discussion pointless is that people use the same terms with either a positive or negative connotation, depending on whose system they want to praise or criticize. It's a game that many hear play, and it gets a little tiring.

You make a fair point, but is that not the reason for this very discussion - to clarify the somewhat lazy description of black background? Hopefully, it will lead to more useful ways to describe what it is we seek to recreate with our systems. So I personally don’t find it pointless but helpful as I redirect my thinking. Indeed, it may help me pursuing paths in my system/room build that ultimately do not satisfy.

 

[andromedaaudio]

depending on who's system they want to praise or criticize.

If you have SET / HORNS you get 2 bonus points right off the bat.
Thats how it works in life , to fight it is pointless

 

[hopkins]

You make a fair point, but is that not the reason for this very discussion - to clarify the somewhat lazy description of black background? Hopefully, it will lead to more useful ways to describe what it is we seek to recreate with our systems. So I personally don’t find it pointless but helpful as I redirect my thinking. Indeed, it may help me pursuing paths in my system/room build that ultimately do not satisfy.

Right, but the discussion could have ended on the first page.

 

[andromedaaudio]

depending on who's system they want to praise or criticize

And if you have thick powercords / Cables you have a good system as its able to reveal the cable differences .
This is how the audiophile world operates .

Oh and before i forgot ,.... boxes matter as much and shiny as possible

 

[Rensselaer]

I never before thought that an inky black background referred to the recording, only to the electronics used to play recorded music at home.

Although I like the ambient sounds of people talking and the cash register ringing up a sale at the start of Jazz at the Pawnshop and the glass shattering while Janice sings Turtle Blue's, for the most part I prefer studio recordings over live because the tone of the instruments is easier to feel.

I feel the resonance produced by the reed, its tone and character amplified down the wooden hollow space of a clarinet or oboe. I feel a rosin coated horsehair bow drawn over the strings of a great violin or cello. It is what I enjoy, the closer to those real instrument sounds from my system the better. I found that analogue to vinyl records played through SETs and horns best gives me what I like. The problem with SETs is that they are not always silent.

A “black background”, to me, means that once your electronics have warmed up you can’t hear any noise from your speakers. Ideally, I would rather my electronics not add noise to the music, however, in my experience with SETs removing all hum/noise results in a less real presentation, more like SS.

This is my experience and probably doesn’t reflect the experiences of those with better designed (costlier) SETs. My Ayon Spitfire was quiet (black background) but music played through it was matter-of-fact, unemotional. I replaced the Ayon with an Ongaku copy by Ken Uesugi of Otomon (Soundgate). Once the amplifier warms up there remains a faint hum heard emanating from the bass horn of my Altec A7s, however the music sounds much more real, greater texture and emotion. Would a real Kondo Ongaku be free of added noise (I don’t know, never heard one)?

 

[hopkins]

Although I like the ambient sounds of people talking and the cash register ringing up a sale at the start of Jazz at the Pawnshop and the glass shattering while Janice sings Turtle Blue's, for the most part I prefer studio recordings over live because the tone of the instruments is easier to feel.

There are many studio recordings - before isolation booths became a thing - where you can hear the musicians reacting to each others' performances. This one is famous, with Django Reinhardt encouraging Coleman Hawkins to continue his solo - "Go on, go on!"

It is fun to hear.

 

[PeterA]

What makes this whole discussion pointless is that people use the same terms with either a positive or negative connotation, depending on who's system they want to praise or criticize. It's a game that many hear play, and it gets a little tiring.

I actually don’t think it’s a big deal. We disagree on many aspects about audio. It’s a subjective hobby based on preference and we make our choices for what we want in our own rooms.

For me, a black background is always a negative based on my own set of values. I distinctly remember hearing a system present instruments popping like fireworks against a black sky. It was Stravinsky. It was a very cool effect but it did not resemble the sound of instruments in a concert hall. I later heard the same recording on a different system and that effect was gone. The instruments were now up on a stage in proportion presenting music reminiscent of the live experience, performing in a realistic context.

 

[PeterA]

If you have SET / HORNS you get 2 bonus points right off the bat.
Thats how it works in life , to fight it is pointless

This post is a bit strange. There has been no mention of different system typologies in this discussion.

Do you think that black backgrounds depend on amplifier and speaker typology? I’ve been mostly discussing wires and audiophile acoustic treatments.

I do think the more resolving a system is, the more it is able to present the ambience of a venue captured on a recording. However, up to this point the discussion has been pretty system agnostic.

Could you clarify the point you are trying to make with specific examples?

 

[Holmz]

Then, say that. It's more informative.
…

Ok space and quietness.

Look at all the different meanings or understandings in this thread about 'black backgrounds'. We flail at describing sound.

I really like music with gaps in the sound.
The only “Wall of sound” I abide is maybe, “The Pixies”.