"Black Backgrounds" in Music Reproduction?

[hopkins]

I actually don’t think it’s a big deal. We disagree on many aspects about audio. It’s a subjective hobby based on preference and we make our choices for what we want in our own rooms.

For me, a black background is always a negative based on my own set of values. I distinctly remember hearing a system present instruments popping like fireworks against a black sky. It was a very cool effect but it did not resemble the sound of instruments in a concert hall. I laid or heard the same recording on a different system and that effect was gone. The instruments were now up on a stage in proportion presenting music reminiscent of the live experience, performing in a realistic context.

You are right, it is never a big deal when it comes to audio.

I had the same feeling listening to a Magico S3 demo last weekend. The speakers project a very large sound, it is impressive and gives the impression of high resolution, but there is something missing - in my opinion - which make it all sound a bit "artificial". To relate back to Salvatore's post about the subject, the system got to step 2 but never made it to step 3. Step 2 remains a necessary step, but it is not sufficient...

 

[andromedaaudio]

Do you think that black backgrounds depend on amplifier and speaker typology?

No not necessarily , tubes do have a tendency to be slightly noisier off course .
I was joking a bit , if a system makes music its good whether its 50 $ or 500000 $

 

[Al M.]

Yes I distinctly remember you writing that you liked it and OP immediately announced he was changing speakers because he found them bright

Well, I've heard the Pendragons twice. The first time with the VTL I found body in the low midrange lacking, but I wouldn't say it was bright, more a bit light in terms of tonal balance. With the Jadis amps I found the tonal balance much better and more to my liking, even though the digital was still a bit light depending on the record.

There may have been a slight brightness in a certain frequency range, but I was much less sensitive to that than Ron was. Maybe if it would have been my own speakers I would have obsessed about it more.

The videos of his system mostly sounded bright over the entire range. But that's not how the system sounded in person.

 

[Tangram]

Ron’s threads always end up taking gold at the Semantics Olympics. It’s just a question of how many pages it takes to seal the win.

 

[Al M.]

Well, at least "black background" has the advantage that you can contract it into a single word .

 

[PeterA]

Ok space and quietness.


I really like music with gaps in the sound.
The only “Wall of sound” I abide is maybe, “The Pixies”.

I like the silence between notes too. Sometimes it is where the magic happens. Shirley Horn was a master at it. But I find with live music, those gaps are never truly silent or “black”. There is always some remnant of energy lingering in the air. The concert hall, jazz club, grundge bar or rock stadium is not an anechoic chamber. They are spaces with ambiance even between the notes.

 

[bonzo75]

The videos of his system mostly sounded bright over the entire range. But that's not how the system sounded in person.

No videos didn’t sound bright. Mainly lacking in dynamic range, drive, tone, and contrast

 

[Ron Resnick]

But I find with live music, those gaps are never truly silent or “black”. There is always some remnant of energy lingering in the air. The concert hall, jazz club, grundge bar or rock stadium is not an anechoic chamber. They are spaces with ambiance even between the notes.

+1

This is insightful.

 

[Ron Resnick]

What makes this whole discussion pointless is that people use the same terms with either a positive or negative connotation, depending on who's system they want to praise or criticize.

I agree. This is why I never use the term "colored." I think "colored" is simply a general purpose slur.

"My neutral cable A does add anything to the music."

"My colored cable X adds a midbass warmth."

How do we know it's not cable A that is sounding cool in the midbass, subtracting something from the music? (I guess if one swaps in five or eight different cables one might be able to triangulate on the exact effect of cable A, but how many people perform even a possibly methodologically valid comparative analysis with that many comparisons?)

 

[Al M.]

No videos didn’t sound bright. Mainly lacking in dynamic range, drive, tone, and contrast

Well, we disagree on brightness. I do agree that the videos had bleached-out tonal color -- in person, however, the sound was enormously colorful, in a realistic way. In particular with the Jadis amps.

 

[bonzo75]

Well, we disagree on brightness. I do agree that the videos had bleached-out tonal color -- in person, however, the sound was enormously colorful, in a realistic way. In particular with the Jadis amps.

Yes Jadis will colour the digital music you use for audition to give it tonal perception

 

[Al M.]

Yes Jadis will colour the digital music you use for audition to give it tonal perception

If you would remember my report correctly, we used analog tape as the reference, I enjoyed the vinyl and I stated that I found Ron's digital the weakest source in comparison.

 

[bonzo75]

If you would remember my report correctly, we used analog tape as the reference, I enjoyed the vinyl and I stated that I found Ron's digital the weakest source in comparison.

Yes but you are not that used to tape so your perceived tone from Jadis might just have been the tone of tape compared to digital

 

[PeterA]

+1

This is insightful.

Thank you, Ron, but it’s really just a simple observation from going to live music. When I attended rehearsals at the Vienna opera for five days in an empty hall, my mentor host told me to pay attention to the energy in the room before during, and after the notes were made on the instruments.

We are talking about acoustic instruments being played in a real space and then being recorded. If that information, all or most of it, makes it to the recording, I want to hear it in my room. It supports realism and natural sound.

If that information is filtered out of the presentation, the experience has changed. As we have discussed on this thread and elsewhere, we make our choices based on subjective observation and personal preferences. Know your target and figure out how to get there.

I assume that the reviewers who claim to hear inky black backgrounds are making that observation by playing a variety of recordings. That tells me the component being evaluated is acting as a filter as Tim wrote. Otherwise, the reviewer would state that he hears a more accurate portrayal of ambience from recordings made in real spaces and blacker backgrounds from recordings made in booths. But what they seem to consistently write is that it is a characteristic of the component being reviewed where everything has that same blackness, and it is blacker than last year’s model. I suppose that it’s very useful information for the person interested in the component. Reading that report will either turn him on or it will turn him off.

 

[andromedaaudio]

assume that the reviewers who claim to hear inky black backgrounds, are making that observation by playing a variety of recordings.

They dont listen to tape probably , digital isnt that good in picking up those details , its more a digital artifact

 

[microstrip]

What makes this whole discussion pointless is that people use the same terms with either a positive or negative connotation, depending on who's system they want to praise or criticize. It's a game that many hear play, and it gets a little tiring.

No subjective definition can be precise - it depends on individual experiences and beliefs. But there is a common line of thought in the use of the words "black background" in most of the audio community.

Surely anyone should feel free to hate the expression, but I hope that you do not believe that, for example, Michael Fremer is referring to systems "presenting instruments popping like fireworks against a black sky. " (quoting Peter is his crusade against audiophile vocabulary) when he uses it.

I suggest people google "black background" in the WBF site - they will find a couple of hundred of interesting cases of its use.

Back in 2011 - https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/...-the-space-between-the-notes.2750/#post-38063

 

[hopkins]

No subjective definition can be precise - it depends on individual experiences and beliefs. But there is a common line of thought in the use of the words "black background" in most of the audio community.

Surely anyone should feel free to hate the expression, but I hope that you do not believe that, for example, Michael Fremer is referring to systems "presenting instruments popping like fireworks against a black sky. " (quoting Peter is his crusade against audiophile vocabulary) when he uses it.

I suggest people google "black background" in the WBF site - they will find a couple of hundred of interesting cases of its use.

Back in 2011 - https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/...-the-space-between-the-notes.2750/#post-38063

Once again, I'll admit that the term is ambiguous, as most recordings don't have a "black background". But once you agree to that, the term should simply be understood to mean that the system presents whatever background there is in the recording to its maximum potential. I'm out...

 

[PeterA]

They dont listen to tape probably , digital isnt that good in picking up those details , its more a digital artifact

Andro, Digital is not that good at picking up what details? And what precisely is “more a digital artifact”?

Are you saying black backgrounds are primarily a characteristic of digital recordings and digital source playback?

That is an interesting comment. Do you want to say more?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Black background is more a sterile unnatural artefact. .


I heard so many systems in munich and else where playing digital which had a black sterile background .

A lot of solid state does the same kind of thing

Also,
If you open the link micro send you can read what Mike Lavigne thinks of it as well

 

[andromedaaudio]

Digital is not that good at picking up what details?

Ambiance of the recording