Avantgarde Horn Speakers
- Thread starter Big Dog RJ
- Start date
Hi Both,
Whilst not an AG owner but an owner of custom horns I have experimented a fair bit with minimising the impact of vibration induced impacts on the upper horn (horns plural for you guys). Each step I have taken to further minimise induced vibration improved mid range clarity and imaging. I do recommend to minimise vibration that is being transmitted into your frame and into the upper horns - it won’t do any good to the performance of the drivers in those horns.
That said, be cautious about damping the horns themselves. I have tried damping plastic / ABS horns and lost a lot of life in doing so.
Best
Whilst not an AG owner but an owner of custom horns I have experimented a fair bit with minimising the impact of vibration induced impacts on the upper horn (horns plural for you guys). Each step I have taken to further minimise induced vibration improved mid range clarity and imaging. I do recommend to minimise vibration that is being transmitted into your frame and into the upper horns - it won’t do any good to the performance of the drivers in those horns.
That said, be cautious about damping the horns themselves. I have tried damping plastic / ABS horns and lost a lot of life in doing so.
Best
What sort of age are your Duos? The latest XDs are even more solidly fixed together with solid aluminium spacers to attach the upright poles to the bass enclosure, compared with rubber bobbins on earlier models. The mid-horn is also more solidly fixed to the uprights (and hence the bass enclosure) and I'm unconvinced this is better than good vibration isolation.
I never liked the 3-pole support system so I ditched it on my 2006 Duos recently. At the same time, I beefed up the isolation with rubber bushes connecting the F Frame to the enclosure and with sorbothane pads and sleeves to isolate the horn tubes from the F Frame. Story and photos here - let me know if you would like more details.
https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/18/183480.html
Peter
Yes, no doubt those added weights that Tam Lin is using will further reduce vibration. In fact to such great effect that vibration may be eliminated altogether. I've seen and heard the effects of these weights and they do work, although in many setups I've found them awful to look at... Although these tweaks work extremely well, at the same time there must be some aesthetic appeal to any system. The work of art the designer creates must be enjoyed in its true beauty. This is something I personally believe in and I guess is a personal thing, where many others would disagree... Infact one chap told me the other day, don't look just listen! Obviously true.
Agree that the Duo XD's are far more superior in terms of improved frames and rigidness. Adds to overall improvement in performance and presentation without a doubt. Then again I know a few who have radically altered they're much older AG horns frames and have achieved some remarkable levels of improvement. Only issues that I've found or seen, are the visual aspects. Not very appealing but sound wise truly spectacular! I guess at the end of the day, as long as they're enjoying it, that's all that matters.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Another big woof! RJ
Agree that the Duo XD's are far more superior in terms of improved frames and rigidness. Adds to overall improvement in performance and presentation without a doubt. Then again I know a few who have radically altered they're much older AG horns frames and have achieved some remarkable levels of improvement. Only issues that I've found or seen, are the visual aspects. Not very appealing but sound wise truly spectacular! I guess at the end of the day, as long as they're enjoying it, that's all that matters.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Another big woof! RJ
Hi BigDog,
I'd be interested in seeing some pictures of the older AG frame mods...
In my case, it only appears to be half the frames vibrating - from the top to the tweeter connections. Below that, the frame doesn't appear to vibrate. I'm not sure how extra weight could be added to the poles ... rubber pellets in the frame itself should add weight and dissipate vibrations, although I think the main route for vibration is probably the bolts and covers connecting the horn tube to the frame tube.
The bolts screw directly into the horn tube and connect to frame tube via the washer which may reduce vibration at that end. However, the bolt is covered by a metal tube that acts like a spacer between the horn tube and the frame. I think that that cover could do with being shorter and a rubber washer adding to it.
Any ideas?
--Jatinder
I'd be interested in seeing some pictures of the older AG frame mods...
In my case, it only appears to be half the frames vibrating - from the top to the tweeter connections. Below that, the frame doesn't appear to vibrate. I'm not sure how extra weight could be added to the poles ... rubber pellets in the frame itself should add weight and dissipate vibrations, although I think the main route for vibration is probably the bolts and covers connecting the horn tube to the frame tube.
The bolts screw directly into the horn tube and connect to frame tube via the washer which may reduce vibration at that end. However, the bolt is covered by a metal tube that acts like a spacer between the horn tube and the frame. I think that that cover could do with being shorter and a rubber washer adding to it.
Any ideas?
--Jatinder
Vibrations will still travel via the bolt no matter what spacer/washer is used so how about looking at alternative options such as Teflon or PEEK bolts and a Teflon spacer. Alternatively you could suspend the tweeter canister from the mid canister which would decouple and allow time alignment. I tried it but couldn’t hear any difference. I think you may be worrying too much about vibration. Crossover and placement are much more important.
Cheers
Blue58
Cheers
Blue58
Yes correct ! Roger that captain.
Jas: unfortunately I don't have access to any pics of the older AG horns, simply due to the fact that those systems are not in Aus, rather based in Colombo, my original home town. The last time I visited was in 2012, haven't been anywhere since. We were to visit as of Aug this year but all flights were cancelled due to that infamous alien bug called Covid! So if I ever do get a chance to go out there again, I'll certainly do so and that's only if those previous owners still have them or give permission to do so. Which I doubt...
In the meantime, the AG horns I've auditioned here in Melbourne and Spore, which is my favourite place for highend gear, have all been the latest offerings from AG, none of the stuff coming from 2000 - 2005 production.
Also, I sincerely believe as Blue58 rightly pointed out, don't worry too much about the vibration rather sit back and enjoy the vibes...
In this day and age, and in particular crazy viruses that drop out of the sky, capable of stopping or resetting the planet, I want to be remembered as one who really enjoyed his music, and not as someone who was trying to fix vibration issues... even if it was an issue to begin with.
OTOH, if you're persistent and must know, I would actually get in direct contact with AG HQ and ask either Holger Frome or Mathias himself, afterall they are still the chief designers. Their team designed AG horns for a specific purpose and that is to basically reproduce a live performance as close as possible. If any further improvements could be modded on older designs, these would be the best chaps to ask. I would.
Cheers mate, and enjoy those fine tunes.
RJ
Jas: unfortunately I don't have access to any pics of the older AG horns, simply due to the fact that those systems are not in Aus, rather based in Colombo, my original home town. The last time I visited was in 2012, haven't been anywhere since. We were to visit as of Aug this year but all flights were cancelled due to that infamous alien bug called Covid! So if I ever do get a chance to go out there again, I'll certainly do so and that's only if those previous owners still have them or give permission to do so. Which I doubt...
In the meantime, the AG horns I've auditioned here in Melbourne and Spore, which is my favourite place for highend gear, have all been the latest offerings from AG, none of the stuff coming from 2000 - 2005 production.
Also, I sincerely believe as Blue58 rightly pointed out, don't worry too much about the vibration rather sit back and enjoy the vibes...
In this day and age, and in particular crazy viruses that drop out of the sky, capable of stopping or resetting the planet, I want to be remembered as one who really enjoyed his music, and not as someone who was trying to fix vibration issues... even if it was an issue to begin with.
OTOH, if you're persistent and must know, I would actually get in direct contact with AG HQ and ask either Holger Frome or Mathias himself, afterall they are still the chief designers. Their team designed AG horns for a specific purpose and that is to basically reproduce a live performance as close as possible. If any further improvements could be modded on older designs, these would be the best chaps to ask. I would.
Cheers mate, and enjoy those fine tunes.
RJ
Hi Jatinder. Could you open the link in my posting from Thursday - post no 203? If not, I'll post the photos here.
There I describe and illustrate the mods I made to my older Duos. If you have 2-horn-tube Unos or Duos, I'd be happy to send scale drawings of the new F frames that you'd need.
My mods were primarily intended to improve the looks of these speakers, but I took the opportunity to improve isolation between the sub enclosure and the horn tubes.
In my opinion they look better and certainly sound better. Ww had a hard time to decide whether we preferred my new Duo XDs over these 2006-vintage Duos.
Peter
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Hi Blue58
Not necessarily. With my mods to my early Duos substituting an F Frame with the original 3 upright tubes, the tubes are bolted to the frame but there's no metal-to-metal contact. The holes for the bolts are over-sized with a neoprene tube separating the bolt from the frame, there's a pad of Sorbothane between the frame and the horn tube and finally there's a neoprene washer under the head of the bolt. You can see some of this in this photo. No hard contact.
Note also that the F Frame is also isolated from the sub enclosure by re-using the rubber bobbins that AG used to fix the uprights to the sub. They may look solid but give them a squeeze. There's no solid contact between the sub and the uprights in original AG design and the same applies to my F Frame. Why AG has now moved to solid metel-to-metal connections with the Duo XD I'm not sure, I'll be modifying my XDs soon. Peter
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When building the new frame, did you put in any thought into time aligning the horns? I found significant improvement to my Unos when I pulled the midrange out 12” in front of the tweeter.
No. I chose to keep the drivers in the same allignment as orginally set by AG. I also chose the height as equivalent to the middle set of fixing holes as this suited my seating position.
Incidentally, rather than trying to adjust alignment by bringing the midrange forward, many users change polarity of the bass drivers. I find that this does improve the sound slightly. With the latest XD speakers, this is impossible as the same terminals are used for the bass and trebble, so bass phase change is only possible by internal re-wiring. The mid could be put out-of-phase, but this wouldn't improve things I don't think. Peter
PS Did my link to the AA thread in post number 203 above open with photos of my "new" speakers?
Good stuff Peter, definitely looks like a viable solution and worthwhile the effort. Perhaps Jas could adopt the same approach...
Agree on the older AG Duo's and in fact the Trio Classico. Both of those systems I enjoyed a great deal but missed out on them at the time, merely because I already had maggies and the Diva's. Fast fwd that from 2004 to 2018, the Duo XD's were on my short list. I'm not sure whether it's the built in 1000w amplifiers or the DSP engine or those parametric equaliser settings, it definitely was an improvement over their previous designs but I must say, when those older Duo's are perfectly positioned, they do sound awfully good. Hence, it was very hard for me to justify the extra spend and so I moved it from my short list and ended up with the CLX's.
Anyway, that was that. The AG horns are fantastic designs and if I were ever to venture towards horns, the Duo XD's would be it. For the Trio Omega system you need a huge room, and like most of those large systems certainly do require that added space to perform optimally, otherwise what's the point in such an investment.
Cheers to AG horns!
RJ
Agree on the older AG Duo's and in fact the Trio Classico. Both of those systems I enjoyed a great deal but missed out on them at the time, merely because I already had maggies and the Diva's. Fast fwd that from 2004 to 2018, the Duo XD's were on my short list. I'm not sure whether it's the built in 1000w amplifiers or the DSP engine or those parametric equaliser settings, it definitely was an improvement over their previous designs but I must say, when those older Duo's are perfectly positioned, they do sound awfully good. Hence, it was very hard for me to justify the extra spend and so I moved it from my short list and ended up with the CLX's.
Anyway, that was that. The AG horns are fantastic designs and if I were ever to venture towards horns, the Duo XD's would be it. For the Trio Omega system you need a huge room, and like most of those large systems certainly do require that added space to perform optimally, otherwise what's the point in such an investment.
Cheers to AG horns!
RJ
RJ - thanks.
A couple of years ago when I had 2002 Unos in my system, I thought it was time for a change and I was looking at electrostatics after hearing a friend's Quad 2905s. I went for ML 13As but sadly I hadn't arranged a home demo first - only a showroom audition and rave reviews. Unfortunately in my room where speakers are 12-15 ft from the back wall, the old Unos sounded better by a significant margin. This was by unanimous agreement with several friends including the Quad owner. MLs don't like open space - presumably because half their sound energy is projected backwatds and this needs to be salvaged.
By lucky chance I found the 2006 Duos at a good price and bought them. I'm hoping the new XDs will eventually out-perform these older Duos, but they are putting up a very good fight.
Huh? In my setup, the bricks are not visible from the listening seat. The bricks are only visible when you are up close and look for them. I'd post a picture but I don't have a working camera at the moment.
This is very interesting to hear - Hear hear
.... I have been wanting and hoping to replace my older Duo's with newer Trio's (preferred) or Duo Mezzo for some time - just looking for the right deal on a used pair. From what I think I'm hearing you say, you don't find the gap from old to new Duo's that large. I wonder if you would mind elaborating a bit more?
Firstly, and with apologies to owners, I think the Trio is not your best move, even if you have the room to accommodate them. It's the only one of the 3 original AG designs that has remained much as it was in the 1990s. The latest Duo and Uno ranges are hardly recognisable from the early days. Note - this is my personal view with no scientific support! I've only listened to Trios once and that was when I had Unos in my own system. I wasn't tempted to upgrade that far even if funds allowed!This is very interesting to hear - Hear hear
Granted the Trio drivers have been changed and other small changes, but do you not think it's fundamentally a flawed design as the horns are not vertically aligned? It's OK to have non-aligned subs, but I have my doubts about having the top 2 in particular non-aligned. I wonder if the wonderful imaging that lesser AGs are renowned for is as well defined with the Trio.
OK, are your Duos Omega or pre-Omega? I’m presuming they have the SUB225s with 10” drivers. There are 3 generations of upgrade between the former and the XD, and 2 from the Omega - I'm counting the Grosso as a Duo upgrade where the bass drivers moved from 10" to 12". My older Duos are pre-Omega.
How they differ from the XD sound-wise is difficult to describe. The sound is surprisingly different, but choosing the preferred sound varies very much from one piece of music to the next. With my 2 friends who are not as musically tuned as I'd have liked (but they are people I can invite round within our present Covid restrictions), we listened to many pieces and they didn't know which speakers they were listening to. A-B switching is frowned upon but I had the speakers rigged to a switcher so I could do just that! As often as they said "I prefer the last speakers", they would say "these are better", almost irrespective of which we were listening to! I have to rather agree although of course I knew which speakers were playing. I should probable make a short playlist and spend an evening listening to the whole selection from each speaker in turn - not continually switching! I’ll report back if I find that there’s a definite winner!
With regard to bass, I’m not one to pump up the bass and play excessively loudly as I have neighbours! The old Duos offer plenty of bass for normal listening to music, as opposed maybe to film sound effects where earthquake bass may be better supplied by the XD’s twin 12” drivers.
My present feeling is the new speakers are not worth the substantial investment as an upgrade. However, I'm sure they are better and will possibly improve as they get more use.
Also I've not used the XD software yet. This offers a bewildering number of adjustments from choosing from a dozen different crossover circuits (from Butterworth, Bessel and Linkwitz) at each end of the sub’s range, to adjusting the straight line response curve in numerous places with adjustable slope, shape, etc. I'm in communication with Avantgarde over this and I'll probably arrange for the UK distributor to visit and take their room measuring readings with their mic and room measurement software before the XD software is applied. They don't follow the more usual DSP method of supplying a calibrated mic to take initial room response curves and offering to straighten it out or make your own adjustments based on the microphone readings.
One thing I should say about the new Duo is that it’s too tall for most listening seating. The setup guide suggests you should be able to see the top of the sub enclosure from your listening position. You can’t unless you sit on a bar stools (slight exaggeration!) or tilt the speakers forward. This looks bad in my particular room as the speakers are seen from the side as you enter the room. Why they chose to go this tall I don’t know. Your Duo sub is 55 cm deep, but they’ve reduced this to just 41 cm in the XD. Why not a less tall but slightly deeper enclosure is a mystery. One call always increase a speaker’s height, but reducing it is effectively impossible. I’m working on mods to reduce the height to avoid the need to tilt. Although the Mezzo appears shorter in photos (and better looking in my view) it is in fact taller still with no apparent way to reduce its height short of digging a pit in your floor!
I’d suggest that before you splash the cash on new Duos or Mezzos, you arrange a home demo. It’s a real pain and it may be difficult to arrange, but you’d be disappointed to find the sound from your old Duos was just as satisfying! However if buying used, you are better off in that you could re-sell with little loss if they proved less than up to expectations. The trouble is, your old speakers are still pretty damn good!
I hope some of this is helpful. Peter
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Late to this thread, I own Duo Omegas. I bought them in 2006 and later upgraded them myself to Omega status. I power them with AudioPax Model 88 Monoblocks that were specially tweaked for the Duos by Eduardo de Lima, the designer of the amp.
I agree with what others have said, these speakers only shine in a largish room where you can sit at least 4 meters away. Definitely not near or mid-field reproducers. If you sit too close you have driver integration issues.
I too use a subwoofer for everything below 80 Hz to lighten the load on the 225s. I would like to find something to totally replace the 225s but I have had no luck to date. Alternatively, I'm looking for a second set of 225s to augment the existing set.
I agree with what others have said, these speakers only shine in a largish room where you can sit at least 4 meters away. Definitely not near or mid-field reproducers. If you sit too close you have driver integration issues.
I too use a subwoofer for everything below 80 Hz to lighten the load on the 225s. I would like to find something to totally replace the 225s but I have had no luck to date. Alternatively, I'm looking for a second set of 225s to augment the existing set.
Thank you for the thoughtful and (very) informative response @Hear Here .... I really appreciate the points you make. I do have pre Omega Duo's. Mine are a strange-dish model called 2.3. They have all Cardas internal wire, PC's, and jumpers (replaced w/Shunyata Aurora) and Cardas binding posts. Also BDR cones and pucks for feet.
Over the past year or so I've upgraded most of my other components and am really enjoying the sound I'm hearing now. I also built a purpose built studio, with dedicated power, acoustic modeling, etc. These things have all contributed greatly.
A long time ago I heard a pair of Trio's at an audio dealer locally and the sound has stuck with me ever since. These must have also been pre-omega and they just had two sets of 225 subs with them. It's real hard to say how close my speakers are to those after all this time. Maybe it's time to stay put and tell the stereo upgrade bug to go back to bed
@rob_c - welcome to the thread... I have a pair (I think two is essential) REL Studio 3 subwoofers on the bottom end of my system. They have really transformed the whole deal here and I find them a super critical piece of the sonic tapestry. I do like to listen loud sometimes - whatever the music seems to call for - but I'm definitely not a bass thumping kinda guy. I find that the subs pressurize the room in a certain way that makes all music come to life. They add texture and depth, whether I'm listening softly or loudly. If you can find a pair of the older generation REL's you should definitely give them a try IMHO.
Over the past year or so I've upgraded most of my other components and am really enjoying the sound I'm hearing now. I also built a purpose built studio, with dedicated power, acoustic modeling, etc. These things have all contributed greatly.
A long time ago I heard a pair of Trio's at an audio dealer locally and the sound has stuck with me ever since. These must have also been pre-omega and they just had two sets of 225 subs with them. It's real hard to say how close my speakers are to those after all this time. Maybe it's time to stay put and tell the stereo upgrade bug to go back to bed
@rob_c - welcome to the thread... I have a pair (I think two is essential) REL Studio 3 subwoofers on the bottom end of my system. They have really transformed the whole deal here and I find them a super critical piece of the sonic tapestry. I do like to listen loud sometimes - whatever the music seems to call for - but I'm definitely not a bass thumping kinda guy. I find that the subs pressurize the room in a certain way that makes all music come to life. They add texture and depth, whether I'm listening softly or loudly. If you can find a pair of the older generation REL's you should definitely give them a try IMHO.
As I have already ordered the Trio LE26 without subs my nearly 5 years old Duo Mezzo XD will be available for sale with Nautilus, the Polish AG dealer .
As far as Duo series are concerned Duo Mezzo XD have better , less resonant frame and more solid subwoofers construction ( so called short basshorns) than other Duos, I did not feel any need te reduce further the vibrations.
Before Duo Mezzo XD I had for 6 years Duo Omega G2.
Also the built in DSP in XD series is an efficient solution for better bass control and integration with the room.
As far as Duo series are concerned Duo Mezzo XD have better , less resonant frame and more solid subwoofers construction ( so called short basshorns) than other Duos, I did not feel any need te reduce further the vibrations.
Before Duo Mezzo XD I had for 6 years Duo Omega G2.
Also the built in DSP in XD series is an efficient solution for better bass control and integration with the room.
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