Avantgarde Horn Speakers

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one Marslo,
Makes perfect sense. Also your rationale is very valid with good points in comparison. Sometimes I ask similar questions about upgrading with others and most of the time they're actually not sure why they upgraded... oh no!

Yes, I agree the Trio's are definitely in a class of their own. I haven't heard any of the latest Trio versions other than the Classico and Omega's. Each time I did audition, it was mighty impressive, especially with their dedicated AG amplifiers. The last time I audition the Duo XD's was actually with one of these AG integrated amplifiers, and I was nearly closing on one. However, the very chap who represents AG in Melb said it won't drive CLX's effectively, so that was that. I really liked that amplifier though, the finish and build quality was superb for the cost. Compared to many others at outrageous price points. Anyway, I guess it's just Aus, highend is supremely costly compared to say the US or UK.
You have to earn big bucks and I certainly don't. Rather I just lift things with my big biceps, that way I earn and save a few pennies and buy something worthwhile after a decade of saving.

Cheers mate,
RJ

 

[microstrip]

Congratulations on the LE Trio's. It is the horn speaker I would have considered if my room was wide enough for them. Although I fear that with 109 dB/W you will risk hearing single misguided electrons!

 

[jeff1225]

I've found the Mezzo XD's to be very good at a distance in my large room, however my sweet spot for them is at 10'. No driver coherence problems.

@KeithR 10' is perfect!

 

[Hear Here]

After the Ked's visit in my place I started to listen more critical to the the " subwoofer sound " of the bandwith between 100 and 200 Hz , that's the real difference between Duos and Trios.

I am aware that Trios without basshorns would be a compromise but the adult life is full of compromises , isn't it ?

Hi Marslo

The Duo has its own integral bass unit as does the Mezzo. The Trio comes with no bass unit but there's the choice of the SUB 231 (effectively identical to the Duo's sub), the Short Basshorn (identical to the Mezzo's sub) or the Basshorn. I understand you've opted for non-Avantgarde subs. I hope they prove OK.

As far as I understand the Trio, AG's XD software won't work without an Avantgarde XD sub as the XD circuit is incorporated in the XD sub amplifiers and not in the Trio itself. So if you want or need room correction, it has to come from somewhere other than Avantgarde.

The range 100-200 Hz is fully covered by the Trio's largest horn , so perhaps your (Ked's) hypothysis will be proved by the Trios (I hope so), as the Mezzo and Duo horn offers only above about 140Hz.

Personally I'd be concerned at the non-vertical alignment of the horns (or at least the top 2) with the Trio (something not commented on by Ked) but I'm sure it's no a serious problem.

I envy you your new speakers!

Peter

 

[bonzo75]

Congratulations on the LE Trio's. It is the horn speaker I would have considered if my room was wide enough for them. Although I fear that with 109 dB/W you will risk hearing single misguided electrons!

Your room is great for trios. 31*14/15

 

[marslo]

@Hear Here

Peter,

From the subs I consider SVS has a kind of simple DSP regulation with the dedicated application for smartphones. REL recommends tunning ' " on ear " . You are rigth that the home Avantgards DSP requires their subwoofers, so if the first two will desappoint me I will go for 231 XD subs.

SVS SB16-Ultra Subwoofer | 16-inch Driver | 1,500 Watts RMS (svsound.com)

Mariusz

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Marslo

The Duo has its own integral bass unit as does the Mezzo. The Trio comes with no bass unit but there's the choice of the SUB 231 (effectively identical to the Duo's sub), the Short Basshorn (identical to the Mezzo's sub) or the Basshorn. I understand you've opted for non-Avantgarde subs. I hope they prove OK.

As far as I understand the Trio, AG's XD software won't work without an Avantgarde XD sub as the XD circuit is incorporated in the XD sub amplifiers and not in the Trio itself. So if you want or need room correction, it has to come from somewhere other than Avantgarde.

The range 100-200 Hz is fully covered by the Trio's largest horn, so perhaps your (Ked's) hypothysis will be proved by the Trios (I hope so), as the Mezzo and Duo horn offers only above about 140Hz.

Personally I'd be concerned at the non-vertical alignment of the horns with the Trio (something not commented on by Ked) but I'm sure it's no a serious problem.

I envy you your new speakers!

Peter

The Duo range are crossed at 170hz according to their literature not 140hz.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The Duo range are crossed at 170hz according to their literature not 140hz.

http://winkey-audio.com.tw/pdf/av_duom_xd_eng.pdf

 

[Ovenmitt]

Ovenmitt - I've just noticed that you use an Art Audio PX-25 amp with your Avantgardes. I used to have one of these beautiful amps powering my Unos. I found it absolutely sublime on smaller scale music in particular female vocal, but a little lacking in Ooomph with big orchestral stuff. My speakers were "only" 102 dB - I wonder how this amp would match my current 107 dB Duos?

I helped Tom Willis with demos in London as he had no dealers there, so I had generous loans of his PX-25 and 845 Carissa amps. I was very sorry when he asked for them back! We took my Uno speakers with his amps to a couple of UK Hi-Fi Shows where the combo sounded better (according to numerous visitors) than AGs own room where Avantgarde speakers were powered by Avantgarde's own SS amps. Peter

Hi Peter,

Yes, the Art Audio PX25 is a fantastic little amp. Over the years, I've been able to source a few different pairs of NOS PX25, and 274B rectifier tubes, which made a huge difference. When I moved into a larger room, I realized that I needed a more powerful amp. As nice as the AA is, the Nagra's are in another universe. I find that they do both large and small scale better. I do still love the AA, and for the money, they are world beaters.

I ended up selling the AA to a friend who still really enjoys it (need to update my system signature). Sometimes I wish I would have kept it though. It does certain things that make it really special.

 

[Hear Here]

The Duo range are crossed at 170hz according to their literature not 140hz.

That's true according to the AG spec although I've found (and many others too) that setting the XO at around 140 Hz offers a better, less muddied sound around the crossover between mid and bass. I believe (although if he's here I hope he will correct me) that Jim Smith favours a lower XO than the brochure suggests.

I'd be interested in your experience if you have Duos. Try a lower XO setting if you haven't already done so. Peter

 

[Hear Here]

Hi Peter,

Yes, the Art Audio PX25 is a fantastic little amp. Over the years, I've been able to source a few different pairs of NOS PX25, and 274B rectifier tubes, which made a huge difference. When I moved into a larger room, I realized that I needed a more powerful amp. As nice as the AA is, the Nagra's are in another universe. I find that they do both large and small scale better. I do still love the AA, and for the money, they are world beaters.

Yes, in the end I changed to 845-based monobloc amps, though nothing as fancy as the Nagra. I've only met the Nagra once - in a London showroom, but I didn't need the power for my (then) Unos and I wasn't happy with its contribution to global warming. They did sound good though.
A few years ago I made a deliberate decision to move away from valve / tube amps and was determined to find an equally good soundin solid state alternative. An interesting journey through a dozen or more contenders and an end result that surely wouldn't be approved of here! Peter

 

[Audiophile Bill]

That's true according to the AG spec although I've found (and many others too) that setting the XO at around 140 Hz offers a better, less muddied sound around the crossover between mid and bass. I believe (although if he's here I hope he will correct me) that Jim Smith favours a lower XO than the brochure suggests.

I'd be interested in your experience if you have Duos. Try a lower XO setting if you haven't already done so. Peter

I see - makes sense. My point was only that at that point (140hz) you are well below the horn fc.

I have found similar things in my system that aligns with your comment. It creates less “mud” somehow. I do find you trade a bit of upper bass texture in doing so, so I guess it is personal preference.


Best.

 

[Blue58]

That's true according to the AG spec although I've found (and many others too) that setting the XO at around 140 Hz offers a better, less muddied sound around the crossover between mid and bass. I believe (although if he's here I hope he will correct me) that Jim Smith favours a lower XO than the brochure suggests.

I'd be interested in your experience if you have Duos. Try a lower XO setting if you haven't already done so. Peter

My Omegas are happy at this setting but who knows what it actually is as the markings are ambiguous.

 

[Hear Here]

My Omegas are happy at this setting but who knows what it actually is as the markings are ambiguous.
View attachment 72207

Hi Blue

Your Duos appear to be similar vintage to my own ones - before I bought the XDs a few months ago. I'm sure you've explored alternative settings, but can I suggest you try this for one evening's listening and then switch back next day and listen to the same tracks.

Adjust Frequency to 140 and bump up the volume a bit - perhaps even to level, or 2 or 3 "clicks" back from there. It will present an unfamilar sound but once you get used to it, you may think there's a smidge of mudiness when you switch back to your settings as per photo, specially at louder levels. I think you may experience a richer bass but one that doesn't grate in louder sections. Or you may not! Worth a try though - I was hesitent to move away from recommended settings, but I'm certainly glad I did. Let us know your findings.

Peter

 

[Tango]

Well , there are many reasons.
First of all , I am nearly 62 , if not now then when ?
Secondly, Ked was always so sure about the supremacy of Trios over Duos that I started to think that he might be right, he has a good ear, maybe not golden as he claims but for sure younger that mine and he has a huge experience with different setups all over the world.

To be honest I was impressed by Trios only once - in Munich 2014 - but I liked them more than Living Voice top of the line with Kondo.
After the Ked's visit in my place I started to listen more critical to the the " subwoofer sound " of the bandwith between 100 and 200 Hz , that's the real difference between Duos and Trios.

I wanted to listen to Universum III at home but it's quite difficult to organise due to the pandemic situation.

Finnally, the enthousiastic opinion of Jacek , one of two owners of soundrebels.com about the LE26 version plus the fact that there are the last pairs available made me to pull the trigger.

I am aware that Trios without basshorns would be a compromise but the adult life is full of compromises , isn't it ?

"If not now then when?"
Imagine you can look at your biological clock on your wrist.
Way to go marslo.

 

[Blue58]

Hi Blue

Your Duos appear to be similar vintage to my own ones - before I bought the XDs a few months ago. I'm sure you've explored alternative settings, but can I suggest you try this for one evening's listening and then switch back next day and listen to the same tracks.

Adjust Frequency to 140 and bump up the volume a bit - perhaps even to level, or 2 or 3 "clicks" back from there. It will present an unfamilar sound but once you get used to it, you may think there's a smidge of mudiness when you switch back to your settings as per photo, specially at louder levels. I think you may experience a richer bass but one that doesn't grate in louder sections. Or you may not! Worth a try though - I was hesitent to move away from recommended settings, but I'm certainly glad I did. Let us know your findings.

Peter

Hi Peter,
This setting was chosen by ear as I can’t get behind the Duos to see the actual markings until I pull the speakers out for maintenance. I also don’t require great volume on the bass, living in a terraced house and using an upstairs bedroom as my music room and the Duos gain enough bass reinforcement from corner placement negating higher levels on the dial.

Thanks for you input and keep posting your trials and tribulations with the XDs.

 

[jatindersangha]

Yes, I always start at about 140 when adjusting the bass (225 subs) on the Duo's. Something to do with the midrange horn cut-off overlapping with the bass output even though both are supposedly steep (high-order?) slopes.

I do use a calibrated mic (well, calibrated when new ;-) and software to check that there's no obvious dips/peaks around the crossover region when making adjustments. It's a bit coarse

--Jatinder

 

[Hear Here]

Yes, I always start at about 140 when adjusting the bass (225 subs) on the Duo's. Something to do with the midrange horn cut-off overlapping with the bass output even though both are supposedly steep (high-order?) slopes.

I do use a calibrated mic (well, calibrated when new ;-) and software to check that there's no obvious dips/peaks around the crossover region when making adjustments. It's a bit coarse

--Jatinder

Hi Jatinder. Thanks for that. I'm pleased your readings confirm that the 140 cut-off is good with SUB225 speakers..

Do you point your calibrated mic forwards or up towards the ceiling? I ask because Dirac Live (and some other RC systems) asks for the latter, which I find slightly odd. Dirac asks for 9 different mic positions at and around the listening position before offering a result. Most mics offer 2 calibration tables, one for forwards and one (the 90 degree one) for upwards measurement. Is this your experience? Do you use REW software?

Peter

 

[Hear Here]

Hi Peter,
This setting was chosen by ear as I can’t get behind the Duos to see the actual markings until I pull the speakers out for maintenance. I also don’t require great volume on the bass, living in a terraced house and using an upstairs bedroom as my music room and the Duos gain enough bass reinforcement from corner placement negating higher levels on the dial.

Thanks for you input and keep posting your trials and tribulations with the XDs.

Hi Blue. I understand your domestic problems. I live in a flat, although my floor and ceiling are pretty well insulated. I do turn down the bass volume when listening at times when noise may be a problem to neighbours, but I can do this more easily via the amp. Your choice of horns is good if your speakers have to be close to corners where AGs are almost as happy as any other position.

I've just visited my older Duos and I find I can reach the Frequency dial from in front / beside the speaker, but a torch and mirror are useful to see what you're doing!

Meanwhile I've not yet arranged for an AG trained technician to visit to take readings for the XDs, but will do so soon. I have Dirac Live in my amp, but I've never got on well with this type of room correction system. I'll report back soon.

Peter

 

[jatindersangha]

I use the XTZ mic and software - which is very easy to use. The mic points towards the speakers when measuring frequency response.

The mic has a calibration file for REW which I may use at some point - but at the moment, all I do is get simple frequency response charts, as I'm fairly simple ;-)