Avantgarde Horn Speakers

[Folsom]

The only thing you’re doing I expect substantial gain from would be changing crossover caps. You will find personal taste in them, all are probably very good and measure the same, but have unique sound.

 

[Tango]

You can also ask Sablon Audio to do internal wire of your horns. That will make a significant change in sound...since you already like the sound of this cable.

 

[Blue58]

You can also ask Sablon Audio to do internal wire of your horns. That will make a significant change in sound...since you already like the sound of this cable.

Already done Tango

 

[Blue58]

The only thing you’re doing I expect substantial gain from would be changing crossover caps. You will find personal taste in them, all are probably very good and measure the same, but have unique sound.

You may be surprised by what a simple Oyaide R inlet brings to the table and still scope to add a Bocchino IEC inlet at a later date.

 

[Folsom]

You may be surprised by what a simple Oyaide R inlet brings to the table and still scope to add a Bocchino IEC inlet at a later date.

The thing is I generally don't like the sound of exotic plating. It may sound different, but better is extremely subjective. I simply like IEC's that have some level of actual compression so nothing is loose.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I’m currently mid way through updating my AG Duo Omega which is taking me longer than I thought and has exceeded my modest budget I’d allocated to the project due to discovering further areas for tweaking.

The binding posts have been changed from very basic WBT brass/Chrome to Audio Note Ongaku Silver and for the tweeter I had to use WBT 0705Ag. The tweeter crossover connected to the old binding posts via a brass bolt and star washer biting into a trace on the pcb, not the ideal connection. The new WBT allow the solder tag to be bent over and solder directly to the trace. At this moment in time I can not afford to change the cap to a Deulund SnCu and inductor to Jantzen Copper Foil in wax but will prioritise this next year.

Internal wires to drivers will be soldered directly to the driver wires and crossover and ‘grub screwed’ to the Mids posts. These links were kindly made for me by Mark Coles from Sablon Audio and replace the factory silver plated copper links.

The metal horn tubes are now damped carefully with sound deadening panels as in new production Duos.

Moving on to the Bass amps is where my initial upgrade thoughts started and I knew I had to remove the generic IEC inlet for an Oyaide R inlet. I’ve found this inlet to be both great sounding and economical. On opening the amp module I could see two fuses on the pcb screaming SR Blue fuse please!. There are also 4 opamps that could be changed to Burson opamps but I decided to leave these alone. All the caps looked fine, though I was tempted to change the 4 10,000uF caps for Mundorf MLytic AG, so left them alone.

Outside of the Duos I’ve upgraded my Sablon speaker cables to Bocchino spades like Spiritofmusic has done and upgraded the power cords to Prince Sablon Bocchino terminated cords.

I should be finished and back up and running in a couple of days and will post some comments but with so many changes and so much burn in going on it will be hard to allocate any changes. And, if it all sounds horrible I’ll tell you straight.

Here’s a few pics View attachment 57213 View attachment 57214 View attachment 57215 View attachment 57216

Do I spy a cheeky X cap on the IEC there Barry?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Barry did you ever consider doing your own XD version on the bass module only? Should be very straightforward should you fancy exploring that route. Not saying that it will be any better but interesting experiment.

A mini dsp 2x4Hd pcb arrived here a couple of hours ago. Just bought it to verify any benefits of corrections on the bass only using difficult rooms.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Barry, you've gotta have the prettiest, neatest, well-ordered workspace ever to sort yr magic. Don't get WD40 all over yr lovely carpet Lol.

You've got a big bonus coming when you install the Bocchino spades Sablon spkr cbls. Completing all my Bocchino connectors to Sablon interconnects and spkr cbls is as big a revelation as any in the hobby so far. Further in some ways. I can only imagine what turbo charged Duos PLUS Bocchinos Sablon spkr cbls will amount to in yr system.

 

[Blue58]

Barry did you ever consider doing your own XD version on the bass module only? Should be very straightforward should you fancy exploring that route. Not saying that it will be any better but interesting experiment.

A mini dsp 2x4Hd pcb arrived here a couple of hours ago. Just bought it to verify any benefits of corrections on the bass only using difficult rooms.

Hi Bill, I’ve never really contemplated DSP on the bass only because I was already quite happy with the sound and I never really noticed any discontinuity that others appear to be sensitive to. Plus, I like to keep the box count to a minimum.

 

[Sablon Audio]

The only thing you’re doing I expect substantial gain from would be changing crossover caps. You will find personal taste in them, all are probably very good and measure the same, but have unique sound.

Folsom, you said a couple of posts earlier that you could identify several areas for improvement. Care to share?

 

[Folsom]

The most obvious one to me is rectifiers. But also some form of damping the windings of the transformer. If you want impress expansive bass to match the horns, these things play big roles. There may be a few other important things, too, like not making an electrical turn where the speaker level connects (which it most likely does, and is bad for the whole speaker).

There's likely more, but I can't see the control board. I'd probably recap a few caps there that are smaller. The big ones kinda depend on how they're being held in as removal may be very tough (snap caps that are tightly snapped sometimes have to be literally cut to pieces to remove).

I'd probably twist some of those wires to reduce their fields. Also I'd use a loop reducing (made for this application) inductor on the ground to chassis.

As stated before, I have done plate amp modifications as a service. I do modifications that make very discernible differences, not little maybes.

 

[Blue58]

Finally powered the Duos up today and pleasantly surprised that not only do they work but they sound great too. Straight off they sound much clearer, greater transparency and vocals a bit more present. Bass is a touch too strong though after burn in I can adjust the settings if need be. Overall they sound more alive and the soundstage feels physical.

Let’s see how they improve after about 400 hrs of run time.
Well worth the time and effort involved.

Blue58

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Finally powered the Duos up today and pleasantly surprised that not only do they work but they sound great too. Straight off they sound much clearer, greater transparency and vocals a bit more present. Bass is a touch too strong though after burn in I can adjust the settings if need be. Overall they sound more alive and the soundstage feels physical.

Let’s see how they improve after about 400 hrs of run time.
Well worth the time and effort involved.

Blue58

Hi Barry,

Good news. Just remind me on the eventual mods that led to this?

> New IEC
> New fuses
> New kondo binding posts
> New wire
> Dueland caps

 

[Blue58]

Hi Bill,

The Deulund 2.7uF cap and Jantzen copper foil wax inductor will have to wait until 2020 and the potential SQ increase may be greater than the mods I’ve just implemented.

Which were :-

New Sablon internal wire links from binding posts to drivers and soldered where possible instead of faston connectors. Where I didn’t feel confident soldering was the tweeter driver so Oyaide Platinum faston connectors were used.

Audio Note Ongaku binding posts used on Mid and Bass and WBT 0705Ag (bendable tag) used on Tweeter.

Horn tubes lightly damped with dampening panels (non foil backing type).

Oyaide R platinum IEC with Auricap 0.47uF across L-N replaced the generic IEC filter type socket.

SR Blue fuses replaced generic fuses on the power amp board.

And, external to the speakers, was reworking the speaker cable to add Bocchino spades and the addition of Prince Sablon power cords.

So, it will be very difficult to allocate any specific SQ improvement to a specific tweek but I’m confident that none of the tweaks would be a step backwards. In fact when I switched on yesterday I thought the tweeters weren’t working as there was no noise at all through them. I even switched them off to think where I’d gone wrong before powering up and actually playing some music to test. I felt a bit stupid not trusting my own work.

A few hours music last night revealed greater ambient cues meaning vocal location was much more evident and vocals sounded bigger, not in size, but in presence. Bass still a bit wayward but that will change with burn in.

Thanks for asking.

Blue58

 

[spiritofmusic]

Just returned from a fascinating visit to Barry, to hear his system that has had the changes described above.
Obviously more change to come as various things burn in, incl his SR Blue fuses.

Barry's system has evolved over time, and most recently dramatically w his new Aqua Formula XHD dac. Despite liking the general flavour of his new sound, I was a little concerned he'd lost a bit of texture and heft in his mids/upper bass.

His Duos surgery has answered my misgivings to a great degree. Entering his room w some deeply unfashionable jazz/funk playing at lowish volume, it was immediately apparent that his sound had become way more tangible and "wet". A big facet selling a system to me is having a fully saturated mids and bass at lower volumes, and the rejuvenated Duos passed this test w flying colors.

Going on to a variety of classical, vocals and prog, there was a real feeling of solid warmth in the system. Not the warmth that hinders agility, but portraying the body of instruments nicely.

An ongoing issue I have w all digital is room saturation at low volumes and full body of instruments and voices, and the new changes have gone a long way to addressing these, enabling me to make less comparison to the best vinyl, and make the whole listening experience more real and compelling.

Barry is really to be commended in addressing a few shortcomings he's had in his recent sound, and pretty much succeeding on all fronts.

Now, all he needs is that tt...

 

[Blue58]

Thanks for the kind words Marc and appreciation of what effort goes into the upgrading path. Part of the success is the addition of Bocchino spades to my Sablon speaker cables, an upgrade you have also done recently with equivalent results.

The next upgrade will be reworking the crossover with Miflex capacitor and Jantzen foil/wax inductor for more juicy goodness.

btw, the jazz funk was the wonderful Bobbi Humphrey - Blacks and Blues

 

[jatindersangha]

The frame on my Duo's vibrates quite a bit when listening to loud music. I've tried tightening all the bolts.

I've recently put anti-vibration material inside the canisters (the black sticky rubber stuff you get for car panels) - this did reduce the frame vibration a little.

I'm now thinking about replacing the hard white washer that's placed between the mounting bolt and the frame. Maybe replacing that with silicone or sorbothane would reduce the transmission of vibration from the canisters to the frame?

I think maybe there ought to be another soft washer on the other side of the bolt as well for maximum dampening?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

--Jatinder

 

[Blue58]

The frame on my Duo's vibrates quite a bit when listening to loud music. I've tried tightening all the bolts.

I've recently put anti-vibration material inside the canisters (the black sticky rubber stuff you get for car panels) - this did reduce the frame vibration a little.

I'm now thinking about replacing the hard white washer that's placed between the mounting bolt and the frame. Maybe replacing that with silicone or sorbothane would reduce the transmission of vibration from the canisters to the frame?

I think maybe there ought to be another soft washer on the other side of the bolt as well for maximum dampening?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

--Jatinder

Hi Jatinder,
can’t say I’ve ever noticed the frames vibrate and couldn’t point to any sonic anomaly caused by this.

I’m also not sure about the white washer which mine don’t have, just a bolt to the canisters via the spacer. Also, I’m not a big fan of sorbothane. Doesn’t it store then release energy like a bouncy ball?

here’s another tip - when toeing in the speaker do not go by the traditional view of the back upright and bolt position. I have found the tweeter canister not to line up equally due to the poor accuracy of bolt tightening.
Use a laser pointer, magnetic preferably, as this will give you better accuracy when adjusting toe-in.

cheers
Blue58

 

[jatindersangha]

Hi Blue58,

Yes, I think my "white washer" may just be a spacer - it's made of hard white plastic. In any case, I like to listen quite loudly (85dB+) at the listening position (4m from the speakers) and if I go and touch the upper part of the frame (connects to the tweeter and midrange horns) then it definitely vibrates in tune with whatever's playing. I can't detect any sonic degradations but was assuming that lack of vibration was a good idea.

I use a multi-laser device from Kralk Audio to accurately toe in the speakers to the listening spot - and then a laser measuring device to ensure the distances are the same. It works but I will admit to giving up when it's within a centimetre or so ;-)

--Jatinder

 

[Blue58]

You’re probably right to reduce vibration though I guess it may ‘tighten’ up the sound.

The Kralk laser is flat isn’t it so you‘re lining up the bass modules effectively hoping the tweeter follows suit. Double check the tweeter alignment if you get a moment, you may be surprised