Best phono stage?

[Lagonda]

I know of 3.
If you can swap 2 other phono stages in and both are dead quiet, I say its the phono stage.

Yes carts and cable pick up noise. But its very common for a phono stage to do the same. The Sutherland Loco line is a very good sounding phono. Just have the option to return it of you have issue.

I found it interesting that in the $3500 or so phono stage lineup, the best units were noisy. The extremely quiet ones were more mheeee. Nothing special. The Channel D walks the line well. There were others I liked better but hum buckets or AM radio out the speakers.

I care more about how good a phono stage sounds when playing music, how does it make me feel ? Quiet is nice, but not imperative, the best ones i have heard are a little noisy. If i can not hear noise from the listening position when playing at a reasonable level i don't really care if it is noisy

 

[Balle Clorin]

We are all different there, if any noise is present at speaker position or listening positions the experience is ruined for me, since I know it is there even if I can not hear it through the music. Luckily I could place my RIAA at a location where induced noise to cable and RIAA is minimal ( -82-86db relative to peak music level) so totally inaudible.

 

[paul79]

I know of 3.
If you can swap 2 other phono stages in and both are dead quiet, I say its the phono stage.

Yes carts and cable pick up noise. But its very common for a phono stage to do the same. The Sutherland Loco line is a very good sounding phono. Just have the option to return it of you have issue.

I found it interesting that in the $3500 or so phono stage lineup, the best units were noisy. The extremely quiet ones were more mheeee. Nothing special. The Channel D walks the line well. There were others I liked better but hum buckets or AM radio out the speakers.

Understood. I would have to agree then, it is the phono stage in those environments that is the issue, and with me, the option to return is always available.

 

[Atmasphere]

Thanks Paul. I have great respect for Ron Sutherland and his work. Plus he’s always been the kindest fellow when I’ve seen him at shows over the years. But the Dos Locos is too limiting for the range of carts I have and use. I’d otherwise love to try it.

What is it about a phono section that is beneficial with different cartridges? Are some of them MM or mono?

If the cartridge is simply LOMC, it will work fine with any phono section that works well with LOMC cartridges. So I'm hoping you can clarify this statement.

 

[Kingrex]

Moat all the phono stages I have tried, and even the Lino have a little noise. Some more than other. The guy who made my amps said, if you put all your effort into shutting down noise, you loose life. I have heard that with phono stages. The absolutly dead quiet ones I heard were uninspiring. Booring.

The Sutherland Loco and big Loco are very nice phono. Better than my Channel D. Just have the option to return it if you can't stop the AM radio from playing out the speaker.
Or other loud hum issues.

Even my Channel D. If I really turn up the volume past where I'm going to listen, I get hum.

My Bobs device. I have to wrap a already shielded interconnect with 2 layers or mylar and a dead soft silver drain wire to use it. Otherwise there is a lot of noise.

My Blade amps have a little hum with the Shuguang Hiden Treasure tube. The JJ are dead quiet. I use the Shuguang as they are much better.

My Dartzeel was dead quiet. But my Blade amp is a far better amp on many levels. I put up with the noise.

The question of best phono stage is mired in questions. What carridge is a big one. Transimpedance phono don't work well wirh any Hana I have heard of. Even though the spec says they should. Also price point. My Channel D is fantastic for the money. But a Big Loco for $17,000 is better. If you don't have noise issues. Never heard the comparitivly prices Little Loco.

 

[Jeffy]

It really is pathetic that you can lose a friend over audio. People many times put their soul in audio and it's like you are personally attacking them. I don't think this was friend I would want to hang around with.

 

[Atmasphere]

Moat all the phono stages I have tried, and even the Lino have a little noise. Some more than other. The guy who made my amps said, if you put all your effort into shutting down noise, you loose life. I have heard that with phono stages. The absolutly dead quiet ones I heard were uninspiring. Booring.

The Sutherland Loco and big Loco are very nice phono. Better than my Channel D. Just have the option to return it if you can't stop the AM radio from playing out the speaker.
Or other loud hum issues.

Even my Channel D. If I really turn up the volume past where I'm going to listen, I get hum.

My Bobs device. I have to wrap a already shielded interconnect with 2 layers or mylar and a dead soft silver drain wire to use it. Otherwise there is a lot of noise.

My Blade amps have a little hum with the Shuguang Hiden Treasure tube. The JJ are dead quiet. I use the Shuguang as they are much better.

My Dartzeel was dead quiet. But my Blade amp is a far better amp on many levels. I put up with the noise.

The question of best phono stage is mired in questions. What carridge is a big one. Transimpedance phono don't work well wirh any Hana I have heard of. Even though the spec says they should. Also price point. My Channel D is fantastic for the money. But a Big Loco for $17,000 is better. If you don't have noise issues. Never heard the comparitivly prices Little Loco.

Once the phono section is quieter than the LP itself, you won't hear the noise once the stylus is tracking.

RFI is a huge deal not just because hum and radio sounds are really annoying, but also because any LOMC cartridge generates RFI of its own (due to oscillation at MHz frequencies due to the capacitance in the tonearm cable). This RFI can intermodulate with the audio signal causing distortion, which is perceived as brightness (the ear is really sensitive to IMD). A 'cartridge loading' resistor detunes the RF peak caused by the cartridge and so can eliminate the RFI; I've found that its better if the phono section itself is simply immune. It tends to be lower noise on that account, there's no IMD either and you don't have to mess with loading- its plug and play.

 

[Kingrex]

@Atmasphere
How to make the phono stage immune to RF is the problem. I hear Ron and the people at Rada, which is another phono stage I really like, know they have noise issues. But they don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. Their units work in most places. Not all. But their units might not play well at all if they spent the $$$ and hours with R&D to make them quiet.

Channel D walks a line. Its not the best phono I have heard. But its about $3700, quiet and very good. I am confident there are much better phono stages out there that are as or more quiet than my Channel D in most environments. But they seem to cost more like $12,000 and up. Heck, I see people spend $7,000 or more just for a SUT.

 

[Kingrex]

Which reminds me. Can I play my Denon 103 with the Bob SUT through my Channel D? Never tried. Its not an easy thing for me to set up a cartridge, even with all the Wally tools I have.

 

[morricab]

Some analog dither added to the sound, eh?

I care more about how good a phono stage sounds when playing music, how does it make me feel ? Quiet is nice, but not imperative, the best ones i have heard are a little noisy. If i can not hear noise from the listening position when playing at a reasonable level i don't really care if it is noisy

 

[Atmasphere]

@Atmasphere
How to make the phono stage immune to RF is the problem. I hear Ron and the people at Rada, which is another phono stage I really like, know they have noise issues. But they don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. Their units work in most places. Not all. But their units might not play well at all if they spent the $$$ and hours with R&D to make them quiet.

Channel D walks a line. Its not the best phono I have heard. But its about $3700, quiet and very good. I am confident there are much better phono stages out there that are as or more quiet than my Channel D in most environments. But they seem to cost more like $12,000 and up. Heck, I see people spend $7,000 or more just for a SUT.

RFI immunity is partly layout and partly making sure RFI can't influence the input by installing components that kill it, such as a capacitance to ground. That capacitance has to be isolated from the input by a resistor; otherwise it simply moves the resonant frequency lower. All active devices have an input capacitance though, so its also possible to use an input series resistor to interact with that (this is called Miller Effect) to roll off the input. That can be tricky because any input resistor introduces something called 'Johnson Noise'. That noise is low with lower resistances so this sort of thing is usually a combination of techniques to knock out RFI.

 

[Lagonda]

Some analog dither added to the sound, eh?

Yes i love me some tube smear sometimes, just not in my poweramps.

 

[Kingrex]

I got rid of my Dartzeel model 1 because the Blade - transformer coupled, differential design, PP is far more articulate and clear. I don't hear any smear. I don't think I heard smear with the Dartzeel either. I heard more midrange lush with the Dartzeel but it came at the expense of detail.

With the phono stages I tried, I never heard smear with a tube either. One maybe. The Rada was very lush and seductive. But not with the Allnic or the Hagerman Trumpet. Some of the SS ones were very quiet and detailed, but had no dynamic life. Something was sorely missing.

All the phono preamps I tried were under $7,000. So there is that to consider.

The guy with the Big Loco and radio out his speakers replaced it with a Zanden and finds it the best he has heard. Thats a tube phono pre.

 

[tony22]

What is it about a phono section that is beneficial with different cartridges? Are some of them MM or mono?

If the cartridge is simply LOMC, it will work fine with any phono section that works well with LOMC cartridges. So I'm hoping you can clarify this statement.

Sorry! I just saw this. In an earlier post I indicated that my interest was in a phono stage with more than one input, flexibility for my varied assortment of MM, MI, and MC carts (including a current input), that could sound good and maybe come in at less cost around an XP27. Near as I can tell Ron’s phono pres are all single input.

 

[Atmasphere]

Sorry! I just saw this. In an earlier post I indicated that my interest was in a phono stage with more than one input, flexibility for my varied assortment of MM, MI, and MC carts (including a current input), that could sound good and maybe come in at less cost around an XP27. Near as I can tell Ron’s phono pres are all single input.

I think you'll find that if your tone arm properly tracks the cartridge, the differences between cartridges becomes quite slim. I've had this lesson thrown in my face a good number of times! Just FWIW...

 

[Kingrex]

I think you'll find that if your tone arm properly tracks the cartridge, the differences between cartridges becomes quite slim. I've had this lesson thrown in my face a good number of times! Just FWIW...

Wow, your opening a can of worms.

 

[Atmasphere]

Wow, your opening a can of worms.

Usually it takes a whole lot bigger can to get them all back inside!

But this is easy enough for anyone to demonstrate. The problem is that most of the time, the arm really doesn't track the cartridge all that well; then you start hearing bigger differences as one cartridge that is more compatible will outplay the other... If you really want to see what that's all about, for example between two cartridges, they both have to be very close in terms of compliance and weight such that the mechanical resonance and effective mass is the same. If that is achieved and if the cartridges are loaded right (in the case of a high output MM) then the differences between cartridges are surprisingly slight.

 

[tony22]

If you really want to see what that's all about, for example between two cartridges, they both have to be very close in terms of compliance and weight such that the mechanical resonance and effective mass is the same. If that is achieved and if the cartridges are loaded right (in the case of a high output MM) then the differences between cartridges are surprisingly slight.

So, if this can be achieved with, say, both a VM95 and an Air-Tight PC-1 Supreme, their sonic differences would be surprisingly slight?

 

[Atmasphere]

So, if this can be achieved with, say, both a VM95 and an Air-Tight PC-1 Supreme, their sonic differences would be surprisingly slight?

If you really had both set up properly and both were happy in the same arm (effective mass, mechanical resonance), and then you dealt with the loading issues all high output MM cartridges have, you might be surprised. I had something very close to those extremes demonstrated to me that left my jaw on the floor. I've seen such things go down several times since.

 

[tony22]

I’m not necessarily doubting this, although I imagine it might be not super easy to do. I mentioned the VM95 in my example for a reason, as I found the Shibata version to be a bit of a sonic surprise.