Best tonearm match for a Koetsu stone body?

[rockitman]

Haven't really noticed this. Keep the studio quite cool in the Summer (66-67), whereas in the winter it can get 10 degrees or more warmer. Sometimes have to run the AC in the Winter!

I haven't really noticed that effect with Coralstone or Tiger Eye....room temp ranges from 68-80 degrees depending on the season...new product idea..Koetsu cart warming blanket ?

 

[ddk]

I have used Koetsu stone bodies uninterupted for 20 years. During that time it has been with Goldmund,Breuer ,FR 64 fx (2) ,FR 64 S (2) , SME V, Souther! and Koetsus own SA 1100D.

For nearly a decade the Koetsu sat in a SME V. I firmly believed that was the best option. Looking back I cannot believe how the SME stifled that cart,giving it the textbook Koetsu qualities of lumpy bass,thickened mids,dull trebles and dynamic constriction.

For the most part you described the SME V, the worst and strangest bass I heard from any tonearm!

The Breuer was exquisite but ultimately small sounding, the Goldmund brilliant but flawed , causing way too much angst,the Souther hilarious and scary-such visible resonance has to be experienced,The FR64 fx did nothing wrong but failed to excite. The FR64S made the Koetsu come alive like no other bar one but there is a definite resonance causing a glare and restriction of dynamics in the upper mids.

The one for me is the ancient Koetsu tonearm.Looks like nothing or a Jelco,wobbly but sonically it just does it all.It allows the cart to soar with unbelievable speed ,clean but full bass all with that special tonality and the lowest groove noise I ever encountered .

As for warming up; I am always astonished how bad the Koetsu sounds for the first 20 minutes ,making it impossible to decide on the correct absolute phase. Then suddenly towards the end of the first side played for the day it will open up ,free itself and bloom. Only one thing worse-an ice cold Studer A80.

I'm surprised that you never tried the SME 3012 with your table, its a great arm and a great match for the Thorens Ref. and Koetsus. My Reference came with the Souther arm, one look at the stupid toilet flush chain was enough not to bother with and replaced it with the Dyna which is also a great match for the Koetsu. I had/have FR66s/64s/64fx arms too but they had their own issues, prefer SAEC if we're looking at Japanese tonearms of that time.

david

 

[jdza]

In my early audio days I was exposed to a number of SME 3012 and 3009 arms. They seemed to always be on Garrard 401 or Thorens TD125 turntables married to QUAD electronics.Invariably owners of these systems would be older and hugely opinionated ( Linn is rubbish,tubes -bah you're stupid, CD is the future etc,etc..).Not my thing at the time . I do think it's time to revisit those arms.Sadly the Thorens Reference is not really 12 inch friendly. My EMT Banana hangs like some sort of Baboon bait over its edge while I'm too ashamed to show how the irreplaceable dustcover have been changed to accomodate long arms.

The Souther was a strange thing. It had what was possibly the narrowest window of opportunity for excellence of any component. A little turn of this adjustment,little shift there and it would be absolutely glorious for 2 minutes. I used it with a stripped EMT vd Hul with arm wires soldered directly to the coils (young,brave and ....stupid). When I fitted the Koetsu it was a near catastrophe. On first lowering on to the record,the whole arm assembly started rattling (my wife heard this commotion 2 rooms away), the cart was thrown into the air only to be smashed down again and the cycle repeated. I have never seen or heard anything like it . Arm/cart mismatch graphically illustrated.

All these years later my one regret remains selling the Breuer. If ever something looked the way it sounded it was that arm . I never explored it they way I should have despite 5 years of ownership.

 

[BruceD]

All these years later my one regret remains selling the Breuer. If ever something looked the way it sounded it was that arm . I never explored it they way I should have despite 5 years of ownership.

Ive owned 3 incarnations of the fabled Breuer Arms --I agree totally at their peak possibly the finest pivoted Arms out there

However no Azimuth correction for todays Super carts may yield less than optimal performance from such

BruceD

 

[Bill Demars]

ikeda 407, look no further.

I couldn't agree more. With a compliance of 5 on the Koetsu's the Ikeda 407 is a match made in heaven. One of my customer's has an Onyx Platinum and a 407 that I sold him and the combo is to die for. Solid extension top and bottome and the midrange that Koetsu is known for. Koetsu's really excel with a high mass tonearm and the 407 is it.

 

[bonzo75]

How would the ikeda compare to a kuzma 4 point or fidelity research with koetsu coral stone for classical?

 

[Bill Demars]

How would the ikeda compare to a kuzma 4 point or fidelity research with koetsu coral stone for classical?

You can see here what Peter Breuninger of avshowrooms says here on the two tonearms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifL4fTk_dPg

 

[Loheswaran]

Ive owned 3 incarnations of the fabled Breuer Arms --I agree totally at their peak possibly the finest pivoted Arms out there

However no Azimuth correction for todays Super carts may yield less than optimal performance from such

BruceD

Les Wong used to import the Breuer to Walrus Sytems in the UK, and I recall him saying to just get the Brinkmann.

Can I just say that I recently acquired a Helius Omega, and the manufacturer said he didn't use Magnesium, nor any other metal than Aluminium due it's specific resonance qualities. He explained that the Magnesium can cause a thick sound that appears to be what people experience with Koetsu cartridges. There are many other very good aluminum arms out there too such as the EMT 929/997, and the Breuer.

 

[Loheswaran]

I'm currently running a Koetsu Blue Lace on a Brinkmann Oasis with a Graham Phantom Supreme II on an all Shindo (amp, pre-amp and speakers) system. I have this sneaky suspicion that the Graham isn't the best mate for the Koetsu.

Which arms are known to be fantastic matches for Koetsu stone bodies?

I may upgrade the entire table next year to a Garrard 301, so bonus points if the arm is also a great fit there. I'm open to new or used arms and budget is $6K-10K.

Go for a Brinkmann 10.5 or 12.0 - superb arm

 

[bonzo75]

I couldn't agree more. With a compliance of 5 on the Koetsu's the Ikeda 407 is a match made in heaven. One of my customer's has an Onyx Platinum and a 407 that I sold him and the combo is to die for. Solid extension top and bottome and the midrange that Koetsu is known for. Koetsu's really excel with a high mass tonearm and the 407 is it.

Thanks - that helped. Kuzma 4 point - huge soundstage (good), high detail (may be, may not be relevant). Ikeda (musical, but doesn't say anything about soundstage).

Does not say anything about weight, bass, dynamics, speed, and tone

 

[number95]

Thanks - that helped. Kuzma 4 point - huge soundstage (good), high detail (may be, may not be relevant). Ikeda (musical, but doesn't say anything about soundstage).

Does not say anything about weight, bass, dynamics, speed, and tone

Perhaps I can comment on those for Ikeda 407. I have that for almost two years and have tried with different cartridges. Soundstage is huge and objects are well defined, perhaps a bit rounded. It is not the last word in terms of speed and dynamics but again it is quite good. With low compliance cartridges, it performs better. If the cartridge has a good tonality, it shines thru Ikeda 407. I currently use it with Ikeda Kai, it is a very good match.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks.

 

[Bill Demars]

Thanks - that helped. Kuzma 4 point - huge soundstage (good), high detail (may be, may not be relevant). Ikeda (musical, but doesn't say anything about soundstage).

Does not say anything about weight, bass, dynamics, speed, and tone

Peter didn't want to hi-jack his review of the Kuzma. Here you can see a dedicated review of the Ikeda 407 arm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7My2X-3Enk

 

[TBone]

just another fluffy non-descriptive review.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

just another fluffy non-descriptive review.

I lasted 2 minutes.....

 

[TBone]

I lasted 2 minutes.....

This tonearm deserves better representation!

As a fan of FR, I did due-diligence and watched all 3 vids in this series. The other 2 vids offer more pre-fluff to the post-fluff, narrated as if the audience are complete newbs to vinyl. Lots of nice adjectives, yet little discussion on actual design, materials & build. One could assume (esp those with FR roots), at this price level, the intended audience would have much experience, and therefore FAR more appreciative of actuality; but instead, more fluffy prose. The setup video was indeed sad to watch; 1 particular setup issue, a critical factor towards the end result with these type arms, is completely ignored.

OK, I realize fluff sells candy, but personally, I don't think these "reviews" do the product justice, other than looking very pretty ...

A simple graph, showing it's cumulative resonant decay signature, would have been more valuable.

 

[Bill Demars]

This tonearm deserves better representation!

As a fan of FR, I did due-diligence and watched all 3 vids in this series. The other 2 vids offer more pre-fluff to the post-fluff, narrated as if the audience are complete newbs to vinyl. Lots of nice adjectives, yet little discussion on actual design, materials & build. One could assume (esp those with FR roots), at this price level, the intended audience would have much experience, and therefore FAR more appreciative of actuality; but instead, more fluffy prose. The setup video was indeed sad to watch; 1 particular setup issue, a critical factor towards the end result with these type arms, is completely ignored.

OK, I realize fluff sells candy, but personally, I don't think these "reviews" do the product justice, other than looking very pretty ...

A simple graph, showing it's cumulative resonant decay signature, would have been more valuable.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-128#j8JXYaJEoiEtke3Q.97

Sorry no graphs this time either.

 

[Bill Demars]

This tonearm deserves better representation!

As a fan of FR, I did due-diligence and watched all 3 vids in this series. The other 2 vids offer more pre-fluff to the post-fluff, narrated as if the audience are complete newbs to vinyl. Lots of nice adjectives, yet little discussion on actual design, materials & build. One could assume (esp those with FR roots), at this price level, the intended audience would have much experience, and therefore FAR more appreciative of actuality; but instead, more fluffy prose. The setup video was indeed sad to watch; 1 particular setup issue, a critical factor towards the end result with these type arms, is completely ignored.

OK, I realize fluff sells candy, but personally, I don't think these "reviews" do the product justice, other than looking very pretty ...

A simple graph, showing it's cumulative resonant decay signature, would have been more valuable.

http://www.dagogo.com/ikeda-sound-labs-it-407cr1-long-tonearm-review

Nary a graph here either.

 

[TBone]

Thanks for the above links.

 

[number95]

Well perhaps Ikeda users like me don't need a graph to be sold on an iconic product like 407.