Blackness / Black Background

[DaveC]

There's MANY sources of background noise. In addition to what Steve mentions above noise is often added to a recording because a totally "black" background sounds unnatural, it's simply not what the brain expects. I've heard music mastered with and without noise added and often, depending on the type of music and other factors, it can sound much better. Sometime noise is added that's very noticeable, and not surprisingly, it's generally analog artifacts we expect to hear from vinyl and tape playback, as well as typical distortions we hear when listening to music live, maybe on a questionable PA system.

So the effect of a "black" background is very dependent on the recording, and I'd argue that an excellent recording, of any genre, will NOT have a black background because it sounds odd.

So the question is, do we want our systems to be able to reproduce a "black" background? I'd say without any hesitation, YES! I want my system to produce what's on the recording, and if it's no noise I want no noise, because if the recording has no noise and your system is playing back noise, where is that noise coming from? It's probably NOT beneficial, even though at times it may be subjectively preferred.

So again it comes down to, Do you want your system to editorialize and add effects to your recordings? I'd guess not, and if I listen to a poor recording that was mastered with a "black" background, then that's what it is, and I want to hear it as intended.

 

[andromedaaudio]

May be its better if we seperate the question further
Are we talking about either a studio recording or a live recording with all the ambient noise that usually comes with it

 

[Joe Whip]

I think it better to think of a lower noise floor. To paraphrase that old Judge Hugo Black quote on pornography, you know when you hear it. The lower noise floor allows you to hear more ambiance, fine details, dynamics.

 

[Al M.]

I think it better to think of a lower noise floor. To paraphrase that old Judge Hugo Black quote on pornography, you know when you hear it. The lower noise floor allows you to hear more ambiance, fine details, dynamics.

Agreed. I'd call that a calm, quiet background. Not "black".

 

[stehno]

Many good responses. I too was pretty fond of Peter's first response. At least up to the point where he started chewing off his arm when he introduced the analog vs digital argument. But I think Peter's best point was, "I used to enjoy this type of sound... .... I am now moving in a different direction."

Like some others I can't imagine anybody walking away from a concert hall waxing eloquently about music rising up out of greater blackness or black background as it doesn't exist - even when there's lengthy pauses between notes. There's still way too much ambient info traveling throughout the soundstage whether live or playback. In fact, the only time I expect to hear greater blackness or blacker background is before I push play and after I push stop.

I also just skimmed Roger Skoff's article that TimA shared and he seems right on the money. I was particularly fond of his last sentence, "In audio, black is the absence of information,....." That's exactly what I thought.

For similar reasons, I'm not a believer in the "jump factor". Like Peter said about blackness, I used to enjoy the jump factor but I am now moving in a different direction. My experience tells me the much coveted jump factor is electronics induced and I've little doubt music rising up out of a complete blackness contributes to this jump factor. Especially when some talking about music notes rising up from increased blackness will also include the adjective startling.

 

[ddk]

Black is a color and it's a coloration usually brought about by powercords and cables that mask the sound and not as as claimed filter and reduce noise. Quiet, low noise and grain free are different attributes and aren't black by any stretch of the imagination. Unless you're in outer space (just guessing) there's no where on earth that is noise free, even air has a presence and ambience that is on recordings and should be allowed to come through the system.

david

 

[DSkip]

I totally agree The loss of all ambient sound is not natural and robs the presence out of the music. It is lifeless

For me, what you and Peter describe falls more in line with what absorption does to a system. To me this isn’t a black background but a loss in energy. Things smear and micro details, transients, decay, and other things are simply lost.

A black background for me is a term I don’t use much anymore unless it’s the only term that clicks with someone. I do remember the aha moment when I first heard it. Now, I prefer to see blackness as an absence of noise from the system. As such, it shouldn’t change tone or cause a loss in information in the recording. Obviously there are varying degrees of noise, but as it decreases obviously the image separation and realism in the presentation increases.

As for what’s on a recording or not, I don’t care. My systems are built to capture the essence of the performance, not an artists intent. I find the former to be much more universal and reasonable.

 

[Gregadd]

Black is a color and it's a coloration usually brought about by powercords and cables that mask the sound and not as as claimed filter and reduce noise. Quiet, low noise and grain free are different attributes and aren't black by any stretch of the imagination. Unless you're in outer space (just guessing) there's no where on earth that is noise free, even air has a presence and ambience that is on recordings and should be allowed to come through the system.

david

Actually black is not a color. It is the absence of light. Smile.
What we are talking about is a "blackground."

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron,

I'm not sure I understand your question. The noise from audience sounds is not what I hear when comparing vinyl to digital. It is something completely different. Even when there is no music playing and the stage is quiet, or between movements when the musicians are sitting still and not making music, and if the audience is fairly quiet, there is still an energy, a liveliness to the atmosphere. The hall is not "black". This sense of atmosphere and aliveness seems to lesson when a system or component or room becomes "blacker". Perhaps you should ask jazdoc as he specifically wrote that he thinks my comments answer the question posed in the analog v. digital thread.

Anyway, what I hear at the BSO is analog and atmosphere, life, energy, even in the quiet. Simple as that. The silence from digital, the blacker backgrounds, don't exist in real life, or at least I don't hear things like that. As far as enjoyment goes, I have been to packed concert halls, in lots of different seats, small and large venues, and in closed rehearsals at the edge of the stage, feet from the musicians or singers. I enjoy them both, though at a concert I'm usually listening to the music. At the rehearsals, I was listening to the sound of the instruments and learning about their energy and resonances. That was about education more than it was about enjoyment.

It is not about details. It is about the sense of energy and life in the music and room. "Black backgrounds" imply to me the absence of sound. It is unnatural. I never hear anything close to an absence of sound, or a black background

. . . .

I am not sure I understand your answer.

I am confused as to whether you are entertaining the analogy of the absence of background noise from an empty concert hall with the black backgrounds of stereo replay. I am analogizing a theoretical absence of sound in the concert hall to black backgrounds on replay.

If you are the only person in the audience, and we hypothesize that until the music begins the orchestra members make no noise, than what "energy, a liveliness to the atmosphere" are you hearing? Why would you be hearing "energy" and "life" from an empty room? (I am not talking about your psychological excitement and anticipation about the concert you'll be hearing in moments.)

If there is no audience noise in the concert hall, and the background noise is lower, presumably you would be able to hear more deeply into, and more details from, the music produced on stage in front of you, as less of that music would be obscured by a higher ambient noise level.

 

[PeterA]

I am not sure I understand your answer.

I am confused as to whether you are entertaining the analogy of the absence of background noise from an empty concert hall with the black backgrounds of stereo replay. I am analogizing a theoretical absence of sound in the concert hall to black backgrounds on replay.

If you are the only person in the audience, and we hypothesize that until the music begins the orchestra members make no noise, than what "energy, a liveliness to the atmosphere" are you hearing? Why would you be hearing "energy" and "life" from an empty room? (I am not talking about your psychological excitement and anticipation about the concert you'll be hearing in moments.)

If there is no audience noise in the concert hall, and the background noise is lower, presumably you would be able to hear more deeply into, and more details from, the music produced on stage in front of you, as less of that music would be obscured by a higher ambient noise level.

Ron, I've never heard an absence of background noise from an empty concert hall, so it is hard for me to imagine such a space. I have been one of two people in a large concert hall. My companion was sitting quietly and the musicians were still awaiting their instructions from the conductor, deep in thought. It was quiet, while we all waited for the conductor to speak, but the atmosphere could hardly be described as having "an absence of sound."

I have heard devices which increase the sense of a black background in stereo systems. In my system, the effect was usually accompanied by a perceived reduction of information. Lowering noise is different from a "black background". By lowering the noise of a system, there may be an increase in perceived information. I don't think of "absence of sound" or "blackness" when I think of a quiet concert hall.

I can't say I "hear" energy or "life" from an empty room. But I sense something that seems natural, real. It is something more than nothingness. The room still feels real, not artificial. I think it has to do with the room's atmosphere. Architects often describe buildings as being alive or breathing. An audio system with a really black background seems somewhat artificial to me. That's all.

You are "analogizing a theoretical absence of sound in the concert hall to black backgrounds on replay." Trying to imagine being in the former, and having heard the latter, I understand the analogy. I don't think I would like either one. They both would seem to be somewhat unnatural.

 

[stehno]

I am not sure I understand your answer.

I am confused as to whether you are entertaining the analogy of the absence of background noise from an empty concert hall with the black backgrounds of stereo replay. I am analogizing a theoretical absence of sound in the concert hall to black backgrounds on replay.

If you are the only person in the audience, and we hypothesize that until the music begins the orchestra members make no noise, than what "energy, a liveliness to the atmosphere" are you hearing? Why would you be hearing "energy" and "life" from an empty room? (I am not talking about your psychological excitement and anticipation about the concert you'll be hearing in moments.)

If there is no audience noise in the concert hall, and the background noise is lower, presumably you would be able to hear more deeply into, and more details from, the music produced on stage in front of you, as less of that music would be obscured by a higher ambient noise level.

Ron, I'd like to try to clarify or simplify a couple of things if I may.

1. Ignore any sounds within the concert hall prior to the music starting and after the music stops.

2. Ignore any potential sounds from the audience or even the performers e.g. clearing of the throat, talking, sneezing, clapping, foot tapping, etc.

That leaves only the music of the performance and the ambient info of the music traveling about the soundstage, interacting with soundstage boundaries, merging and melding with other notes traveling about the soundstage even forming new notes collectively.

This is the ambient sound that never ceases even when there's a few second pause between notes of a solo instrument. And as somebody said earlier or maybe it was that Roger Skoff article, the soundstage still seems to have a lively sound of its own.

The ambient info that I'm speaking has everything to do with the effects of musical notes in a concert hall and recording hall or even a garage. It's the reverberant info of every music note.

Imagine the sound of bouncing a basketball in your carpeted walk-in closet filled with clothes and then imagine the sound of bounding the basketball in an empty gymnasium. One sounds like a dud while the other sounds far larger than life.

Maybe this attached trumpet piece can better illustrate. Notice the ambient info associated with every blast of the trumpet seems larger than life? Listening to a trumpet in a closet ain't much fun but listening to a trumpet in a garage, a gymnasium, recording or concert hall is a whole nuther matter altogether. It is this ambient info that gives life and some might even call it magic to the performance. It's the acoustics of the hall that give the trumpet life. Rather, it's the trumpet's notes interacting with the hall's acoustics that give life to the music. You might notice here how the trumpet's notes just seem to blossom and bloom for 3 minutes solid. And even when there's a little pause between notes, it's anything but black because the previous note is still on the move. Even when the performance come to an end, it seems there's a good 3 - 4 seconds of audible music still on the move.

More than anything else, it is the volumes of ambient info that give our playback systems a sense of believability. The performers are not in our smallish listening rooms but rather our listening perspective is in the concert hall. Even if it's somewhere by the restrooms.

 

[Al M.]

Ron, I'd like to try to clarify or simplify a couple of things if I may.

1. Ignore any sounds within the concert hall prior to the music starting and after the music stops.

2. Ignore any potential sounds from the audience or even the performers e.g. clearing of the throat, talking, sneezing, clapping, foot tapping, etc.

That leaves only the music of the performance and the ambient info of the music traveling about the soundstage, interacting with soundstage boundaries, merging and melding with other notes traveling about the soundstage even forming new notes collectively.

This is the ambient sound that never ceases even when there's a few second pause between notes of a solo instrument. And as somebody said earlier or maybe it was that Roger Skoff article, the soundstage still seems to have a lively sound of its own.

The ambient info that I'm speaking has everything to do with the effects of musical notes in a concert hall and recording hall or even a garage. It's the reverberant info of every music note.

Imagine the sound of bouncing a basketball in your carpeted walk-in closet filled with clothes and then imagine the sound of bounding the basketball in an empty gymnasium. One sounds like a dud while the other sounds far larger than life.

Maybe this attached trumpet piece can better illustrate. Notice the ambient info associated with every blast of the trumpet seems larger than life? Listening to a trumpet in a closet ain't much fun but listening to a trumpet in a garage, a gymnasium, recording or concert hall is a whole nuther matter altogether. It is this ambient info that gives life and some might even call it magic to the performance. It's the acoustics of the hall that give the trumpet life. Rather, it's the trumpet's notes interacting with the hall's acoustics that give life to the music. You might notice here how the trumpet's notes just seem to blossom and bloom for 3 minutes solid. And even when there's a little pause between notes, it's anything but black because the previous note is still on the move. Even when the performance come to an end, it seems there's a good 3 - 4 seconds of audible music still on the move.

More than anything else, it is the volumes of ambient info that give our playback systems a sense of believability. The performers are not in our smallish listening rooms but rather our listening perspective is in the concert hall. Even if it's somewhere by the restrooms.

(Emphasis added.)

Nice example, nice description. And that's compressed AAC digital. No reason why uncompressed digital audio, CD and above, can't reproduce this as well. So this puts the idea into question that digital has "black" background. Uncompressed digital can also reproduce more subtle hall and ambient information very well.

Peter has heard the portrayal of church acoustics on the famous Propius recording "Cantate Domino" in my system and loved it. Without reproduction of low level ambient information, also spatial depth portrayal would not be possible. My audiophile friends routinely comment on the excellent depth portrayal in my system, from plain Redbook CD. No "black" background in that respect either.

 

[tima]

Several of us on this thread appear to agree on the topic of a black background and the live acoustic music experience, and the relative importance of ambience. An audience in a hall puts energy into it, a kind of aural excitation of anticipation before a performance starts that ebbs and flows throughout the performance then sometimes explodes at its conclusion. Just listen to the lp "Horowitz in Moscow" (DG 419 499-1).

Those same several of us appear to agree on the artificiality of the sonic "drums and flutes pop out of a deep black background" type effect. It's artificial because it does not obtain in real life. And, forgive me for this, it's easy to pooh-pooh the notion - we who sport the live music experience find it an easy target - nodding to one another, we so knowingly put it to bed.

But where does the notion come from? What led @stehno to pose his opening question? He read about it.

All too frequently I read where somebody executes an upgrade and then posts a comment how the upgrade resulted in a greater blackness or blacker background.

I tried to suggest the black background description comes largely from audio reviews. It's used to describe both records and equipment. And in those reviews the property of having it is clearly represented as a positive, a desirable. In the explosion of the audio forum publishing platform, some end users pick up the phrase and repeat it.

Do some of us actually have the black background experience in our listening rooms?

==>> I'd be curious to hear from someone who has it, who seeks it, who likes to hear their music emerge from a velvet-black background. Please share your experience.

Is this simply an issue of some of us using live acoustic music as our basis of preference while others of us prefer our own notion of what our system should sound like - styled to our taste? Is it that simple, or something else? Is it review hyberbole or an attempt to convey the notion and not doing such a great job of it? {I've probably used the phrase myself sometime in last 15 years.) I don't think reviews try to deceive us overtly, for whatever else they may be. Is it an attempt at saying in an exciting way "my new component is quieter than my old component" ?

The more I think about this, the more the reality of it seems a tempest in a teapot. Isn't this mostly a language usage or inadequate vocabulary issue?


Numerique yes, but a wonderful performance.

 

[microstrip]

Several of us on this thread appear to agree on the topic of a black background and the live acoustic music experience, and the relative importance of ambience. An audience in a hall puts energy into it, a kind of aural excitation of anticipation before a performance starts that ebbs and flows throughout the performance then sometimes explodes at its conclusion. Just listen to the lp "Horowitz in Moscow" (DG 419 499-1).

Those same several of us appear to agree on the artificiality of the sonic "drums and flutes pop out of a deep black background" type effect. It's artificial because it does not obtain in real life. And, forgive me for this, it's easy to pooh-pooh the notion - we who sport the live music experience find it an easy target - nodding to one another, we so knowingly put it to bed.

But where does the notion come from? What led @stehno to pose his opening question? He read about it.



I tried to suggest the black background description comes largely from audio reviews. It's used to describe both records and equipment. And in those reviews the property of having it is clearly represented as a positive, a desirable. In the explosion of the audio forum publishing platform, some end users pick up the phrase and repeat it.

Do some of us actually have the black background experience in our listening rooms?

==>> I'd be curious to hear from someone who has it, who seeks it, who likes to hear their music emerge from a velvet-black background. Please share your experience.

Is this simply an issue of some of us using live acoustic music as our basis of preference while others of us prefer our own notion of what our system should sound like - styled to our taste? Is it that simple, or something else? Is it review hyberbole or an attempt to convey the notion and not doing such a great job of it? {I've probably used the phrase myself sometime in last 15 years.) I don't think reviews try to deceive us overtly, for whatever else they may be. Is it an attempt at saying in an exciting way "my new component is quieter than my old component" ?

The more I think about this, the more the reality of it seems a tempest in a teapot. Isn't this mostly a language usage or inadequate vocabulary issue?

View attachment 64818
Numerique yes, but a wonderful performance.

Yes, a great recording, a favorite of mine since long.

We can't forget that we are commenting mostly on the personal semantics of each reviewer.

Many people referred to black background (or even black velvet using an analogy with photography techniques that can be misleading) just to separate the physical and emotional sense of silence in real music from the simple instrumental signal to noise ratio. And usually using words like silky or grainfree background to complement the idea.

For those, as me, black background does not imply more contrast to the sound, more starkness, more hype, more excitement or more hifi. Just more music! Anyone having owned an Audio Research SP10 knew about it. The damn think was noisy, but had a fantastic "black background", preserving the music.

BTW, IMHO the room it self, not the HVAC, takes a big part on the black background. As well as the recording, digital or analog.

Someone once wrote that we know that a system has black background when after the music ceases no one dares interrupt the beautiful silence after the last note.

 

[stehno]

...

But where does the notion come from? What led @stehno to pose his opening question? He read about it.

....
Numerique yes, but a wonderful performance.

"He read about it." can have several implications. I never read any articles about blackness until I think it was you who pointed us to Roger Skoff's article yesterday.

I've just seen too many times others in forums like this post comments about the results of an equipment upgrade and boast about greater blackness or improved black background, etc almost like it was a badge of honor. And considering who some of those authors were and the level of equipment they had, it always kinda' left me scratching my head wondering. Sorta'

 

[tima]

"He read about it." can have several implications. I never read any articles about blackness until I think it was you who pointed us to Roger Skoff's article yesterday.

I've just seen too many times others in forums like this post comments about the results of an equipment upgrade and boast about greater blackness or improved black background, etc almost like it was a badge of honor. And considering who some of those authors were and the level of equipment they had, it always kinda' left me scratching my head wondering. Sorta'

Okay, forum comments count as reading. I was trying to contrast reading from experiencing.

 

[stehno]

Okay, forum comments count as reading. I was trying to contrast reading from experiencing.

Ummm, ok. I think. But to be clear, the numerous posts I read over recent years about upgrades resulting in greater blackness, etc made little sense to me hence, my OP. There certainly were no takeaways in those brief little reads. I just wasn't sure if others understood what they were really saying when making such declarations.

Also, my position on this and most every other audio-related subject comes soley from my experience - most of which seem to be in direct conflict with popular folklore.

Don't know if that clears anything up on your end but for some strange reason I feel better.

 

[tima]

Ummm, ok. I think. But to be clear, the numerous posts I read over recent years about upgrades resulting in greater blackness, etc made little sense to me hence, my OP. There certainly were no takeaways in those brief little reads. I just wasn't sure if others understood what they were really saying when making such declarations.

Also, my position on this and most every other audio-related subject comes soley from my experience - most of which seem to be in direct conflict with popular folklore.

Don't know if that clears anything up on your end but for some strange reason I feel better.

So you were contrasting what you read with what you experienced. Seems quite reasonable to me.

 

[stehno]

(Emphasis added.)

Nice example, nice description. And that's compressed AAC digital. No reason why uncompressed digital audio, CD and above, can't reproduce this as well. So this puts the idea into question that digital has "black" background. Uncompressed digital can also reproduce more subtle hall and ambient information very well.

.......

Thanks, Al. Yes, a lack of blackness or lack of black background is entirely achieveable with digital as such volumes of ambient info is usually embedded in the vast majority of recordings. Hence, my comment about Peter chewing his arm off when he threw in that analog vs digital comment.

It's just that with unremedied distortions plaguing our playback systems, the ambient info which is the lowest of low-level detail is the first to become inaudible as a result of a raised noise floor - which we all have to one degree or another. I suspect this is true because ambient info is not in-and-of-itself a musical instrument, hence it has no point source except for the entire soundstage itself, hence it has no direct bee-line straight for recording mic's. That's my hunch anyway.

 

[Al M.]

Thanks, Al. Yes, a lack of blackness or lack of black background is entirely achieveable with digital as such volumes of ambient info is usually embedded in the vast majority of recordings. Hence, my comment about Peter chewing his arm off when he threw in that analog vs digital comment.

It's just that with unremedied distortions plaguing our playback systems, the ambient info which is the lowest of low-level detail is the first to become inaudible as a result of a raised noise floor - which we all have to one degree or another. I suspect this is true because ambient info is not in-and-of-itself a musical instrument, hence it has no point source except for the entire soundstage itself, hence it has no direct bee-line straight for recording mic's. That's my hunch anyway.

Yes, it's lost in a raised noise floor. When I upgraded my previous triode monoblock amps from the early Nineties (Audio Innovations Second Audio) with external BorderPatrol power supplies I was stunned at how much more spatial depth I could hear, and depth in recordings that previously had sounded flat. The internal power supplies of the amps were too noisy to allow the spatial information to come through.

With my current Octave preamp/amp combo I get all the spatial info in spades, since the factory internal power supplies are at least as good as the external ones for my previous amps.

I was just listening to a Channel Classics recording of a late Schubert piano sonata (D 960), with Dejan Lazic delivering a wonderful performance of the music. I played the Redbook CD layer of a hybrid SACD (my transport is CD only). The spatiality of the presentation is stunning, the sense of recorded concert hall space is all engulfing, particularly intense when listening in the dark. Tonality is rich and saturated.

The music arises from a very calm, yet anything but black background.