This is a policy decision, which you have every right to make for yourself, obviously. But this has nothing to do with sound quality.
Blind Listening Comparison
- Thread starter NC Lee
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This is a policy decision, which you have every right to make for yourself, obviously. But this has nothing to do with sound quality.
This is all fine rationalization.
I'm reading here about beliefs and beliefs in the reports of others. My takeaway from this is that you have not actually, with your own ears, compared different cables to determine whether you hear a difference.
Which expensive cables have you compared yourself in a familiar system to inexpensive cables to cause you to conclude that expensive cables are snake oil?
Hi Ron,
That's true. Collecting a variety of cables, including high end / expensive ones, and doing properly controlled blind testing or measurement tests is not a trivial task. Others have done the work for us however, and I have read the results of their efforts & benefitted from their work. That's why I believe as I do.
I could link to those discussions & tests, but the info resides on other forums and I thought that it would be inappropriate for me to direct readers on your forum to those other sites. If that's not a concern however, let me know.
The thoughts that I expressed on this topic had everything to do with sound quality.
Apologies for ruffling feathers...
I have experimented with expensive cables in 2002 -2004 .
Since then i visited quite a few audiophile systems/ dealer shows / shows .
It hasn t convinced me of the benefit.
When a system sounds good its more due to other factors imv
I do use high quality industrial cables not related to audiophilia and milled solid copper connnectors( Cardas )
Since then i visited quite a few audiophile systems/ dealer shows / shows .
It hasn t convinced me of the benefit.
When a system sounds good its more due to other factors imv
I do use high quality industrial cables not related to audiophilia and milled solid copper connnectors( Cardas )
May I commend your use of the word "believe" -- because, much of the time, it is as much a matter of belief as it is of "acceptance" of scientific evidence (such as it may be).
(Caveat: further down I mention measurements which I do not have, unfortunately. For anyone reading on, you can take this as being anecdotal!)
As it happens, I was incredulous about AC cables and set out to try the after-market variety after having chatted with an engineer who sweared by his own "AC chord recipe". (Note that my amp comes with "designer" AC chords anyway Symphonic Line's own "reference" cables).
This meant that I purchased good quality connectors and about 25m OFC wire (single strand). I crafted the AC cable as per recipe, checked it, and connected it to the DAC and set out to play some music.
I immediately perceived a difference (more clarity is what I remember), more so after about 10 mins. It was easily discernible, blind or otherwise.
I found this pleasantly strage; pleasant, because I like the sound, and strange -- for obvious reasons. I conjectured that, if there actually was a difference, it would show up on a FR curve -- right? Because the difference I perceived (or thought I perceived) was in the sound...
So I visited a friend who has a full diy set-up with B&K mic and horn-loaded speakers with Murata super tweet, etc, the works. We decided to use my cable on his amp ( 2A3 based tube).
To avoid the possible effects of switching on & off, we let his system play with each AC cable before using pink noise, & some music (Pink Floyd was one). When it came to the actual measurement, we used one speaker, then both speakers ( don;t remember the reasons for this).
Whaddya know, the response curve was slightly different, in the upper mids & high frequencies as well. We measured at high amplitudes.
Unfortunately I do not have the graphs as mentioned above.
We casually attributed the differences to better connectors, single-strand wire...
For what it's worth, better connectors should result in a better mechanical contact, so perhaps there's a reason there. Then there is the single strand rather than the usual multistrand (which is more flexible btw)...
Needless to say, the pleasure of this experiment was enahnced by a bottle (or two) of red wine.
I have always been a cable skeptic. But my bias cuts in both directions. Not to mention I am a cheapskate. I would never buy cables that cost as much as or more than what they are attached to. Nor would I ever criticize someone who would. If cables don't do it for you, don't buy them. But if cost is a barrier you can get around that.
I agree. t is like flipping a coin. The bigger the sample size the more accurate the analysis will be. Those results may be good enough for you. But if you are going to take those results on the road, there are rules that must be followed..
Having said all that I have heard (or not heard)a full set of Masterbuilt(tm) cables. Have you?
Im a skeptic but im not a hater.
This was my favorite system probably in munich.
With a whole artisan bling bling cable arrangement ..
I do think it would have probably sounded even better with Gryphon apex amps .
I dont think the good sound was much due to the cabling.
Im certainly not gonna try lol
FYI I can actually afford the whole lot incl the cables if i wanted too
This was my favorite system probably in munich.
With a whole artisan bling bling cable arrangement ..
I do think it would have probably sounded even better with Gryphon apex amps .
I dont think the good sound was much due to the cabling.
Im certainly not gonna try lol
FYI I can actually afford the whole lot incl the cables if i wanted too
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Forgive me for belaboring the point but this really is my issue: I see this as simple confirmation bias. You don't want to feel like you have to spend money on cables, so you adopt the views of people who tell you this.
Alternatively, you could choose to adopt the views of reviewers who report differences between cables and who may happen to prefer sonically expensive cables over inexpensive cables.
(As I have written many times I think the whole cable thing is a frustrating, but unavoidable, morass. Unfortunately for me (unlike for you with your policy decision) it is crystal clear to my ears that different cables sound different.
And for me personally, between any pair of connected components, it is far from the case that I always prefer sonically the more expensive cable over the less expensive cable. Putting it another way, the whole cable thing would be much less of a morass if we could be confident that we subjectively sonically prefer the more expensive cable every time.)
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I was just like you until a year ago. If I believed audiophile power cords did make a difference, it was only in a negative way, coloring and degrading the sound. But mostly I thought power cord upgrades were nonsense, and power conditioning was the only thing that mattered.
Since then I have completely changed my mind. Hearing audiophile power cords make a positive difference in a friend's system got me thinking, and together with this technical post (#112, see also follow-ups there) got me over the hump of trying some myself:
Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls
Try making a cable out of Romex... seriously, have fun. I have seen it done. They’re extremely hard to move, and because of that they will come loose from the plugs (internally). But also you aren’t as likely to maintain the relationship with the ground in the middle as cleanly. What really...
www.whatsbestforum.com
Since then I have upgraded my whole system with ZenWave power cords and a Furutech power distributor (see my signature; if you're on the phone you may need to turn it sideways to see signatures on this forum). I'm totally eating crow on this one. I was completely and utterly wrong. Terribly wrong. Fortunately, apart from eating crow there is a wonderfully positive upside to the whole affair: the upgrading of my power system has been one of the most significant sonic upgrades to my system ever. It really has transported it to another level. Yes, it was not cheap, but the performance/price ratio of the upgrade is excellent and it was worth every cent, penny and groschen.
I fully agree with you on the utmost importance of room acoustics.
Yet the right speaker cables are tremendously important too. You rob yourself from better sound if you continue sticking to your opinion. But hey, it's your choice.
Spot on. Confirmation bias. I had the same thing. Based on my faulty technical understanding of AC power I wanted nothing to do with audiophile power cords. Wrong.
Good attitude.
Unfortunately, while many people say that, when push comes to shove they stick with their old beliefs no matter what.
You can see that in discussions about philosophical world views too. Irrefutable logic of argument when it comes to pointing out weaknesses in the other's world view is dismissed, and often not even understood. Even by people who emphatically call themselves "rational". It would be funny if it weren't sad.
It's not confirmation bias to read the results of *blind* tests that find no audible difference between generic and esoteric speaker wires, for example, and then draw the conclusions that I have expressed here. If you look at the gear in my signature (Trinnov Altitude, JVC RS4100) you can see that I do indeed spend significant money on A/V gear that I believe will improve my experience. I can afford fancy cables, but choose not to buy them simply because I don't believe that they will improve what I hear. Have I personally demo'ed high end cables? I've heard them connected to high end equipment at audio shows and stores, but there was no A/B testing involved that would allow me to conclude that one cable was superior to another.
Power cables, the subject of this thread, are just wires. RCL - resistance, capacitance, and inductance are the characteristics of a wire. I assume that the standard power cable that comes in the box with each piece of A/V equipment should be sufficient to power the equipment without degrading the sound. If altering the RCL characteristics of that stock power cable yielded some audible improvement, wouldn't high end audio equipment manufacturers already include cables with those characteristics?
Again, no intent to ruffle feathers. It would be easier to give weight to my arguments if I could link to articles, measurement data, & threads on other forums that support my position. It would not be appropriate to do that however, so I'll just leave it there...
And to add to my post , i have heard also many many systems in my audiophile career with some of the most expensive cabling you can imagine , that sounded crap to my ears ( i wont mention names )
Don't worry, you're not ruffling any feathers, certainly not mine. You might if your convictions made me insecure about mine, but they don't.
I have been in your place of thinking, at least with respect to AC cables, and I have abandoned that position for a better place. If you want to keep sticking in yours, that's entirely your choice and perfectly fine. It's your system and your pleasure, after all.
Above I have posted a link to a post by someone that made me think, as he points out why so-called objectivists may be technically wrong on AC cables (there are important follow-ups, also by him, on that thread). If you are not interested in the subject as I was, that's your loss, not mine.
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