Breaking news from DCS….

Just for reference, what digital are you using yourself ?
Different generation dCS, including a Vivaldi Apex stack in my main system. As mentioned many times on this forum, I also like Lampizator, in particular Pacific and Horizon, and have fond memories of Playback Designs, at least as far as DSD playback was concerned (PCM struck me as somewhat artificial sounding, or "sculpted"). I basically like anything that sounds like live music, and wouldn't mind if it turned out a hamster were turning its wheel under the hood. Mentioning this because there are too many audiophiles, here and elsewhere, that argue one "cannot" (isn't allowed to) like one if one likes the other, which strikes me as non-sensical.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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Hello David,

Can you please explain what you exactly mean with ‘dynamic flatness’?

For me dynamic flatness means things stay within a limited a dynamic range, and the swings from low, to high (whether quieter passages to louder passages or simply something like the soar of a cello) is restricted, it does not go on a long enough journey, but seems to go up and down within a limited bandwidth. This dynamic flatness is not an issue for pop music or standard audiophile female vocal type music. I hear this with a lot of SS amps and phonos. One particular example was the top Pass phono which I noticed during my visit and suggested replacement, and it got replaced by both Mayer and Thrax phono to get rid of the dynamic flatness
 
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The Wadax reference dac is the most dynamic sounding dac I have ever listened to (and believe me, I listened to an awful lot of (top notch) dacs in my life). So I really cannot understand the remark from David. He has not reacted (yet) cq answered my question to him but I suppose he (only) listened (how many times?) to the Wadax reference dac under - apparently very - difficult cq unfavorable show conditions.
Sorry if I overlooked your post, but that's been my conclusion so far: that I'm hoping this can't be all there is to it. It's just been my experience for about half a dozen times, that's all. A tame, unobtrusive type of sound, not "bad" per se, but not engaging, let alone invigorating.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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For me dynamic flatness means things stay within a limited a dynamic range, and the swings from low, to high (whether quieter passages to louder passages or simply something like the soar of a cello) is restricted, it does not go on a long enough journey, but seems to go up and down within a limited bandwidth. This dynamic flatness is not an issue for pop music or standard audiophile female vocal type music. I hear this with a lot of SS amps and phonos. One particular example was the top Pass phono, which got replaced by both Mayer and Thrax phono to get rid of the dynamic flatness
That's an excellent way of putting it, and easier to grasp than my micro versus macro dynamics explanation above. And it matches the impression I was trying to convey.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
Reminded of something unrelated, or at best indirectly related: there was a YouTube review on the original (non-Apex) dCS Bartók in which the reviewer felt that playback sounded dynamically flat to him. I remember agreeing wholeheartedly as I heard the exact same (there to the extent where I found the playback boring). Many pointed out its smoothness etc., but that's what I was trying to convey: "unobtrusiveness" may be thought of as a quality by some, just not by me. Engaging playback isn't a mere function of technicalities - it doesn't matter if a component gets more ticks on the pros than the cons side if I'm not drawn into the music. And I'm not saying I'd be willing to sacrifice anything in return, for the simple reason that if anything sticks out like a sore thumb over the long term, one's attention is inevitably going to drawn to it, a no-go. Anyway, just voicing my two cents' worth, not important…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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Different generation dCS, including a Vivaldi Apex stack in my main system. As mentioned many times on this forum, I also like Lampizator, in particular Pacific and Horizon, and have fond memories of Playback Designs, at least as far as DSD playback was concerned (PCM struck me as somewhat artificial sounding, or "sculpted"). I basically anything that sounds like live music, and wouldn't mind if it turned out a hamster were turning its wheel under the hood. Mentioning this because there are too many audiophiles, here and elsewhere, that argue one "cannot" (isn't allowed to) like one if one likes the other, which strikes me as non-sensical.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
Thank you Sir !
 
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For me dynamic flatness means things stay within a limited a dynamic range, and the swings from low, to high (whether quieter passages to louder passages or simply something like the soar of a cello) is restricted, it does not go on a long enough journey, but seems to go up and down within a limited bandwidth. This dynamic flatness is not an issue for pop music or standard audiophile female vocal type music. I hear this with a lot of SS amps and phonos. One particular example was the top Pass phono which I noticed during my visit and suggested replacement, and it got replaced by both Mayer and Thrax phono to get rid of the dynamic flatness
That is a fine description for me as well. That said it completely baffles me that someone can call the Wadax reference dac dynamic flat or restricted. My (rather) low wattage Kondo amplifiers in combination with my Tidal La Assoluta loudspeakers (without hornlike sensitivity) and Tripoint Audio grounding can - depending on the (quality of the) recording / files - sound incredibly fast and utterly dynamic. Some (experienced) listeners even experience the dynamics of the LA system sometimes as ‘scary’.

David, may I ask you how many times you were able to listen to the Wadax reference dac? I suppose it was under show conditions?

As mentioned before I am not here to pick a fight (just like you) and of course everyone is entitled to its own opinion, I am just wondering how your (David’s) view can so completely differ from my own (based on many hours of listening to my own system). I would almost start to believe that the settings of the Wadax reference dac (see in this regard Brandon’s very insightful post in one of the Wadax’s threads) you listened to were not right.
 
That is a fine description for me as well. That said it completely baffles me that someone can call the Wadax reference dac dynamic flat or restricted. My (rather) low wattage Kondo amplifiers in combination with my Tidal La Assoluta loudspeakers (without hornlike sensitivity) and Tripoint Audio grounding can - depending on the (quality of the) recording / files - sound incredibly fast and utterly dynamic. Some (experienced) listeners even experience the dynamics of the LA system sometimes as ‘scary’.

David, may I ask you how many times you were able to listen to the Wadax reference dac? I suppose it was under show conditions?

As mentioned before I am not here to pick a fight (just like you) and of course everyone is entitled to its own opinion, I am just wondering how your (David’s) view can so completely differ from my own (based on many hours of listening to my own system). I would almost start to believe that the settings of the Wadax reference dac (see in this regard Brandon’s very insightful post in one of the Wadax’s threads) you listened to were not right.
Half a dozen times if memory serves for the stack, a couple for the integrated "Studio Player" (which I wasn't even thinking of, and which I remember to be promising). None of the systems were a known quantity, but I do remember at one point @christoph pointing out something "completely changed" and that he was reconsidering his (our) impression on the dynamics of the playback, when it turned out the playback was from LP. As to settings, I know nothing about those, except to mention that this is a problem shared by the Vivaldi stack, too many permutations, but I'm glad to say that after a couple of days, once set, I never felt the urge to change again. Having said that, one is always hoping that whoever set up the system knew what they're doing (wishful thinking: heard a number of systems using dCS source components where this wasn't the case), apart from the obvious, that setting may be a matter of personal preference and certainly are of system synergy.

As to "disbelief" that someone might not like what you like: that's what I've going through for quarter of a century using dCS DACs - fellow audiophiles giving me the stare or asking whether I liked this and that analytical playback at e.g. a show in this or that room, or indeed of some people's home systems. No, I'd say, THAT sound isn't what I'm thinking of or used to at all, and if THAT were all there is to it, I'd not be a happy camper.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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Besides, there's something @bonzo75 alludes to above, which is that the kind of music one listens to, I believe, has an awful lot to do with one's preferences in audio. For example, being a classical music lover, I find some DACs that sound fine with pop, rock or jazz problematic with complex or "dense" music, not to mention differentiation of instruments (a piano versus another piano, or a violin versus another violin). Someone who never listens to classical music isn't going to be irritated by beautifying "sameness". And clearly, I'm not going to argue with anyone who just wants their favorite electronic/amplified music to be fun. It's more of a thing among classical music aficionados, as e.g. critic Dave Hurwitz puts, to be "into the game of comparisons" (here not of audiophile gear, but interpretations, performances, artists, instruments…).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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Besides, there's something @bonzo75 alludes to above, which is that the kind of music one listens to, I believe, has an awful lot to do with one's preferences in audio. For example, being a classical music lover, I find some DACs that sound fine with pop, rock or jazz problematic with complex or "dense" music, not to mention differentiation of instruments (a piano versus another piano, or a violin versus another violin). Someone who never listens to classical music isn't going to be irritated by beautifying "sameness". And clearly, I'm not going to argue with anyone who just wants their favorite electronic/amplified music to be fun. It's more of a thing among classical music aficionados, as e.g. critic Dave Hurwitz puts, to be "into the game of comparisons" (here not of audiophile gear, but interpretations, performances, artists, instruments…).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
David,

i'm a 70% classical listener. digital and analog. i do not claim any long term deep music theory or performance insights, but maybe that is changing. bought a 3000 pressing classical Lp collection 3 years ago owned by a music reviewer (don't know the name), and a few months ago finally had the time and shelf space to curate it. i'm about half way through, reading, cleaning and listening. since Friday i've cleaned and listened to part of 60-70 records, 1000 records in......at the 'H's......Handel and Haydn. interpretations, performances, artists, instruments. listen at lower levels with the original instrument recordings and they sparkle. i'm having the time of my music listening life. learning and enjoying. hearing and reading. retired and nothing interrupting. saw your post answer earlier but did not want to interrupt my flow.

when i do take a break, i listen to......the Wadax. and it's right there on all those things you are talking about. best digital for classical i have heard by far. and my analog both vinyl and tape does not suck.
I'm hoping you're right. In fact I'm reminded of what I said to my audiophile buddies each time we heard Wadax, that I'm hoping this can't be all there is to it. Would like to mention this reminds me of so many systems with dCS converters I've heard, somewhat analytical and as a result not too engaging musically, which I've always found interesting because the same dCS components sound wonderful in some systems.

I make it a rule to base my personal verdict on a component on the best, not the worst system synergy I've heard it in.

It strikes me as logical that as long as one has heard a component in systems that underperform, one shouldn't jump to conclusions, but that when one hears a system that sounds great, it makes sense to assume the components can't be bad.

I'm not here to pick a fight.
if you go out of your way to criticize a product based on something not head to head; that is the dictionary definition of picking a fight. just say'n.

then you doubled down with your "to my mind there's absolutely no reason a DAC should sound less dynamic". which you had to know would lite a fire.

of course, you did finally disclose you are a long time dCS owner, owning a dCS Vivaldi stack. ah hah. :rolleyes: and that is a great dac. and i'm happy for you. you could have said up front that you own and prefer the dCS and here is why.
Anyone who's happy listening to whatever it is they like please feel free to ignore my opinion (anyone's opinion for that matter). I've certainly done so with my audiophile buddies, none of whom seems to like the Vivaldi Apex, at least until they heard a couple of systems whose sound quality they praised and where it was my turn to point out the source component was just that.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
lots of people take shots at the Wadax. it's not that big a deal. we move on and i'm sure if we listened together to the same things at the same time we would likely agree.

time now to clean and listen to more classical records. next is Henze, and then Hindesmith.
 
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if you go out of your way to criticize a product based on something not head to head; that is the dictionary definition of picking a fight. just say'n.

then you doubled down with your "to my mind there's absolutely no reason a DAC should sound less dynamic". which you had know would lite a fire.

of course, you did finally disclose you are a long time dCS owner, owning a dCS Vivaldi stack. ah hah. and that is a great dac. and i'm happy for you. you could have said up front that you prefer the dCS and here is why.
You'll notice I didn't mention what brand I use nor made comparisons because I do no share this attitude, that one has to pick a winner as if audio gear were something other than what it is to me: a means to an end. If I meant to state preferences for a brand, I would have before being asked what I own and use.

To me gear is good if it makes me want to listen to music until I keel over, normally into the wee hours, usually four to six hours four or five times a week, sometimes more, sometimes longer. And I'm referring to attentive listening, not doing anything else (such as right now, I stopped playback to type this as I have no patience for background music). Of course that's the point I've been making all along: that I want playback to sound captivating.

The primary reason I said there's no reason a DAC should sound less dynamic (than anything whatsoever, not vinyl in particular) is because I'm frankly miffed at the quantity of dynamically compressed music today, worst of all remasterings of recordings from the analogue era that I grew up with and love, when finally, we have the technology available to transfer the full dynamic range available on the original master and session tapes. From that perspective, nothing ever makes sense to me that sounds dynamically flat. Why would anyone want that? But maybe I just don't get it and it is what people want, same as in classical music interpretation nowadays, unoffensive with majority appeal.

Regarding Wadax, I sure wish some of the my audiophile buddies who shared these experiences with me would chime in, because it's not as if any one of them put it as politely as I tend to.

Note the people I talk about all own and/or "prefer" different brands, on the contrary, there's rarely any agreement as to what we all find "best", and the point can never be to justify one's purchases since paying heed to other people's opinions isn't going to make one spend more time listening to music. No one can spend more than every free minute doing what one loves doing.

As to your concerns, I sure hope we're wrong and that what we heard wasn't representative (and I remember saying to my audiophile buddies, more than once in fact, that I look forward to another opportunity, as I always do, because I'm always curious). I can't say I'm too concerned given my experience that most of the dCS playback I've heard over the years (an awful lot!) wasn't representative either. The common theme there was an often analytical and "objective" kind of sound (Yawn!), except I've been lucky enough to hear that brand sound great in a handful systems, so I know it can sound great, and that the problem apparently wasn't with the source component (more often than not, especially at trade shows or dealer demos, brands like dCS are paired with other popular brands, not necessarily personal favorites).

Point being, we're never listening to anything in isolation, and there are more reasons, unfortunately, for something to go wrong in a demo than for everything to go right (throwing a handful popular brands into a system isn't a recipe for synergy). Having said that, half a dozen times, same common denominator, can't be blamed for being disappointed at least for the time being…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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David,

i'm a 70% classical listener. digital and analog. i do not claim any long term deep music theory or performance insights, but maybe that is changing. bought a 3000 pressing classical Lp collection 3 years ago owned by a music reviewer (don't know the name), and a few months ago finally had the time and shelf space to curate it. i'm about half way through, reading, cleaning and listening. since Friday i've cleaned and listened to part of 60-70 records, 1000 records in......at the 'H's......Handel and Haydn. interpretations, performances, artists, instruments. listen at lower levels with the original instrument recordings and they sparkle. i'm having the time of my music listening life. learning and enjoying. hearing and reading. retired and nothing interrupting. saw your post answer earlier but did not want to interrupt my flow.
You're reminding me that I'm slowly approaching 20TB worth of musical files, and wondering if I'll ever listen to all I already have, let alone stop acquiring more music… Sounds like a fun project, though, the listening more than the recording cleaning, of course, have fun!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
Half a dozen times if memory serves for the stack, a couple for the integrated "Studio Player" (which I wasn't even thinking of, and which I remember to be promising). None of the systems were a known quantity, but I do remember at one point @christoph pointing out something "completely changed" and that he was reconsidering his (our) impression on the dynamics of the playback, when it turned out the playback was from LP. As to settings, I know nothing about those, except to mention that this is a problem shared by the Vivaldi stack, too many permutations, but I'm glad to say that after a couple of days, once set, I never felt the urge to change again. Having said that, one is always hoping that whoever set up the system knew what they're doing (wishful thinking: heard a number of systems using dCS source components where this wasn't the case), apart from the obvious, that setting may be a matter of personal preference and certainly are of system synergy.

As to "disbelief" that someone might not like what you like: that's what I've going through for quarter of a century using dCS DACs - fellow audiophiles giving me the stare or asking whether I liked this and that analytical playback at e.g. a show in this or that room, or indeed of some people's home systems. No, I'd say, THAT sound isn't what I'm thinking of or used to at all, and if THAT were all there is to it, I'd not be a happy camper.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
As regards the last paragraph of your reply: it is not a matter of you not liking what I like. That is completely fine. My reaction was only triggered by your claim that the Wadax reference (generally) sounds dynamic flat or restricted because it does not. I am classical music lover myself, visit classical concerts on a regular basis (in particular (but not only of course) the Concertgebouw Orchestra in Amsterdam), listen at home nearly only to classical / non amplified music and one thing that does not apply to the Wadax reference is that it sounds dynamic flat or restricted. On the contrary.

Btw, my question still stands out: did you (only) listen to the Wadax reference under (most of the time unfavorably) show conditions?

One final remark before I definitely move on: the Wadax reference dac was tested by three professional reviewers - Roy Gregory, Lincoln Chen and Robert Harley - and none of them mentioned / experienced that it sounds dynamic flat or restricted in any way. Is that not a telling fact?
 
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You're reminding me that I'm slowly approaching 20TB worth of musical files, and wondering if I'll ever listen to all I already have, let alone stop acquiring more music… Sounds like a fun project, though, the listening more than the recording cleaning, of course, have fun!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
it is a very fun project. it did take a few weeks to set up so the flow works. my RCM is on a cabinet right outside my listening room. i have a staging area near the RCM for pressings about to be cleaned, so i can quickly place the cleaned and sleaved pressing into the 'to be listened to' place inside my listening room, and then rotate another pressing onto the RCM. then i go into the room, close the door, and take the next pressing off my 'cleaned' box to listen to while the next pressing is being cleaned. so i am listening while cleaning. i have about 30-40 cleaned pressing waiting to be listened to, and about a hundred waiting to be cleaned. so i can take my time on either end depending on how long i want to listen or read, or whether i want to research.

with my door closed i can just barely hear the RCM if i mute, and barely hear the two minute vacuum cycle with the music playing at the quiet spots, so it does not intrude on my listening. but i don't always immediately go out and cycle to the next dirty pressing. i follow the music. it has become an almost religious mystical experience i lose myself into. all that early music with original instruments and glorious voices.

after cleaning it goes onto my collection rack in it's place. i am listening all through the process. it's absolutely exciting knowing that i'm going to be listening to new fresh pressings all day long. so far not a single spindle mark on a label, these all have only very light dust and appear to be un-played.

i have 20-22tb of music files myself, but have not added any for a few years. i'm waiting for larger SSD's (from 4 x 8tb, to 4 x 16tb) to become available for my Wadax server to expand the storage from 34tb to 66tb. then i can start adding the big dxd files i want.

i listen a lot. likely 8+ hours a day. retired. no grandkids. in my barn. mostly serious listening. so those big files will get listened to. now i do mostly streaming, less file listening, since i've had these files for 5+ years now. but some are in my regular rotation.
 
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For me dynamic flatness means things stay within a limited a dynamic range, and the swings from low, to high (whether quieter passages to louder passages or simply something like the soar of a cello) is restricted, it does not go on a long enough journey, but seems to go up and down within a limited bandwidth. This dynamic flatness is not an issue for pop music or standard audiophile female vocal type music. I hear this with a lot of SS amps and phonos. One particular example was the top Pass phono which I noticed during my visit and suggested replacement, and it got replaced by both Mayer and Thrax phono to get rid of the dynamic flatness

With so-called 'micro-dynamics' it can be even more obvious. Smaller changes in dynamics, say from p to pp or p to f, scored for interior instruments such as woodwinds or even double bass can deliver texture and depth of expression when gear allows them to reveal -- versus losing or minimizing such information. You may not get the full measure of building to a forte crest unless you hear how it starts. For me, hearing low level dynamic shifts is an integral aspect of classical music appreciation. Without these revelations you may not realize a compositions's genius without looking at a score. Consider Mendelssohn's 3rd Symphony (the Scotch).
 
With so-called 'micro-dynamics' it can be even more obvious. Smaller changes in dynamics, say from p to pp or p to f, scored for interior instruments such as woodwinds or even double bass can deliver texture and depth of expression when gear allows them to reveal -- versus losing or minimizing such information. You may not get the full measure of building to a forte crest unless you hear how it starts. For me, hearing low level dynamic shifts is an integral aspect of classical music appreciation. Without these revelations you may not realize a compositions's genius without looking at a score. Consider Mendelssohn's 3rd Symphony (the Scotch).
And often when NLs talk in terms of scale, they are talking only of height and size of a big tall speaker even when it is dynamically flat. While for me, scale is the rise for it to grow from small to big, which also requires a high dynamic range (plus, for things like planars and cones, lots of room relative to speaker size). This is why speakers as short as O96 can scale quite easily with good recordings, given the ease of drive with simple circuits, from low to high, compared to a dynamically flat system with a big speaker, which throws a large size and separation on the tutti but totally misses out on the musical details and scaling factor from the low to the way up.

The highest dynamic range by far that I heard was on Yamamura and then the Vyger RS Mayer Pnoe (BD4/5), and lack of crossover contributed to that.

While this system is not at the same level as the other Pnoe system on many aspects, the video does capture a high dynamic range.


 
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And often when NLs talk in terms of scale, they are talking only of height and size of a big tall speaker even when it is dynamically flat. While for me, scale is the rise for it to grow from small to big, which also requires a high dynamic range (plus, for things like planars and cones, lots of room relative to speaker size). This is why speakers as short as O96 can scale quite easily with good recordings, given the ease of drive with simple circuits, from low to high, compared to a dynamically flat system with a big speaker, which throws a large size and separation on the tutti but totally misses out on the musical details and scaling factor from the low to the way up.

The highest dynamic range by far that I heard was on Yamamura and then the Vyger RS Mayer Pnoe (BD4/5), and lack of crossover contributed to that.

While this system is not at the same level as the other Pnoe system on many aspects, the video does capture a high dynamic range.



That subtle dynamic change in the opening oboe in the Scheherzade clip from ~ 00:07 - 00:12 is a good example of a subtle micro-dynamic shift in intensity -- it sets up the larger shift that immediately follows to reveal the dynamic range of that music. Yes, a small part that shows off the system's ability. Enjoyable videos.
 
That subtle dynamic change in the opening oboe in the Scheherzade clip from ~ 00:07 - 00:12 is a good example of a subtle micro-dynamic shift in intensity -- it sets up the larger shift that immediately follows to reveal the dynamic range of that music. Yes, a small part that shows off the system's ability. Enjoyable videos.
It is also how the rise and fall in the B7 is easily captured without losing any musicality on the quieter parts. I have actually heard the same LP in many systems where it plays with gaps of sound in the quieter passages.
 
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you glorified other (un-named at that point) brands

read what you wrote.
Please quote! Be sure to do so from before I was asked what I use, and limit yourself to what qualifies as glorifying. Or else I’ll be out of here. If I’m not allowed to voice my (relative) disappointment in anything whatsoever, or give my opinion, what’s this forum for? Thanks!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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