Building a system around ROON for local/ripped/downloaded files and making it better than CD playback...

[skinnyfla]

... well, I have been asking the wrong questions in too many different threads and probably not been articulating my own goals/ideas properly... so here I go again... ;-)

1.
I subscribed a lifetime membership for ROON many years ago - as I really like the software I want to build a digital system around it.

2.
I stream only for exploring new music, but in the end, I always buy stuff I like, be it on vinyl (primary source) or if not availabe on vinyl, I will buy the CD and rip it or buy the download - so "serious listening" will always take place by playing locally stored files (using the ROON software).

3.
I see two basic solutions, one would be to follow ROONs advice and keep the core and the streamer/DAC in separate rooms - thus I would have a Nucleus for example as core in the basement, fed by a server in the same room (or with internal storage), then have ROONs software do whatever it does and then run the file via ethernet to the router (Fritzbox) and from there via ethernet to the music room, where the signal will run into the streaming bridge and take it`s path from there...

Now this would mean sending the file through the home network, thus I would probably need to install proper ethernet switches - as from my reading here the main problem seems to by sound/file degredation due to noise/jitter being introduced to the file on it`s way through the home ethernet from the source to the endpoint...

4.
The alternative options would be a Core/Server/Streamer in one box placed in the music room, serving the DAC directly and not running through the home network... this would be Antipodes K22 or some Innuos for example. No more issues with added noise, as the file does not travel the ethernet route but is fed directly (basically like a CD transport feeding the DAC)... logically (to me) no more need for ethernet switches (the only reason for internet connection is to actually give ROON connection to the database and make it run) - but this is actually not what ROON recommends, as Core and the rest of the system are not separated...

... so, which way is the best for ROON?

5.
Is either one or are both options superior th CD playback... I would assume yes, as again the main problem seems to be jitter added through different processes. Now a ripped CD via dBPoweramp for example, where the CD gets re-read 100ds of times and is crosschecked on multiple plattforms, will ensure a perfect file as source. This is already a better starting point, as NO CD is free of error and besides having the transport spinning the disc I would suspect that the biggest downside is the error correction of a CD - I would believe no CD runs without error correction taking place and so the perfect rip must be better - following that logic it seems the main problem for computer based playback is keeping the perfect file free from interference on it`s way until it reaches the endpoint...

AGAIN

this seems obviously ealsily achieved by unsing Antipodes (solution 3) - so why does ROON recommend something else though?

Any help and further suggestions will be greatly appreciated,

thanks,

Christoph

 

[NigelB]

A long post requiring a full response which I will need to come back to... but for now:

you really shouldn't be concerned about jitter in the ethernet domain - it's a completely different story once your streamer has converted the ethernet frames/packets to a stream of bits. In the ethernet world, jitter is a measure of the variability in the timing of packets arriving at any given point/node in the network; it has nothing to do with audio quality.

What can accumulate in a network is RFI noise which is of course not digital in nature at all, it's just a subset of electromagnetic inteference (EMI) in the radio freqency range which won't cause any harm digitally but you don't want it to get via cables, switches and streamers to your DAC where it can interfere with the analogue conversion process.

Whether you're streaming from outside your home via your router or inside your home from stored music eg on a ROON Nucleus (if I understand ROON correctly, I don't use it myself!), the most important bit of the network is the last 1m or so before your streamer. Here, any RFI noise accumulated anywhere across your network will be at its peak; so it's here, ideally 0.5m or 1m ethernet cable before your streamer that you would install a switch or filter or optical bridge or whatever to break the noise chain. A version of your (5) then: yes, you can clean it at source and/or along the way, but the biggest impact of a noise treatment will be at the very last point in the ethernet chain.

Final point as mentioned elsewhere is that the short cable from switch to streamer should be either shielded with the shield grounded only at the switch end OR not shielded at all eg standard Cat 6. You don't want a shielded cable like a standard Cat 8 at this last step as both metal RJ45 plugs will be connected to the shield and this shield can then act as a noise conductor to your streamer. If in doubt, a multimeter will tell you whether there is conductive continuity from one RJ45 case to the other; if there is, avoid here. Fine elsewhere in your network of course.

Hope this helps.
Nigel

 

[skinnyfla]

A long post requiring a full response which I will need to come back to... but for now:

you really shouldn't be concerned about jitter in the ethernet domain - it's a completely different story once your streamer has converted the ethernet frames/packets to a stream of bits. In the ethernet world, jitter is a measure of the variability in the timing of packets arriving at any given point/node in the network; it has nothing to do with audio quality.

What can accumulate in a network is RFI noise which is of course not digital in nature at all, it's just a subset of electromagnetic inteference (EMI) in the radio freqency range which won't cause any harm digitally but you don't want it to get via cables, switches and streamers to your DAC where it can interfere with the analogue conversion process.

Whether you're streaming from outside your home via your router or inside your home from stored music eg on a ROON Nucleus (if I understand ROON correctly, I don't use it myself!), the most important bit of the network is the last 1m or so before your streamer. Here, any RFI noise accumulated anywhere across your network will be at its peak; so it's here, ideally 0.5m or 1m ethernet cable before your streamer that you would install a switch or filter or optical bridge or whatever to break the noise chain. A version of your (5) then: yes, you can clean it at source and/or along the way, but the biggest impact of a noise treatment will be at the very last point in the ethernet chain.

Final point as mentioned elsewhere is that the short cable from switch to streamer should be either shielded with the shield grounded only at the switch end OR not shielded at all eg standard Cat 6. You don't want a shielded cable like a standard Cat 8 at this last step as both metal RJ45 plugs will be connected to the shield and this shield can then act as a noise conductor to your streamer. If in doubt, a multimeter will tell you whether there is conductive continuity from one RJ45 case to the other; if there is, avoid here. Fine elsewhere in your network of course.

Hope this helps.
Nigel

... thanks - now that actually makes sense and seems perfectly understandable, even for a computer based playback newbie as I am... looking forward to further input,

cheers,

Christoph

 

[Manxman]

There's an old joke that if you post on the internet that you love apples and are looking for the tastiest varieties, some clown will respond by saying, "You should be asking about oranges – they're much tastier!".

With that in mind, I would advise you to audition your preferred streamer(s) both with and without Roon as the processing software. The claim that Roon imparts a sound of its own is absolutely true – you may notice a significant difference between using Roon and the streamer's own proprietary software. I do not like the sound of Roon at all, but your mileage may vary (and Roon's sound allegedly changes significantly with each software update). Some streamers will allow you to use their own software for the processing but Roon as a control point, which could give you the best of both worlds.

 

[audiobomber]

Final point as mentioned elsewhere is that the short cable from switch to streamer should be either shielded with the shield grounded only at the switch end OR not shielded at all eg standard Cat 6. You don't want a shielded cable like a standard Cat 8 at this last step as both metal RJ45 plugs will be connected to the shield and this shield can then act as a noise conductor to your streamer. If in doubt, a multimeter will tell you whether there is conductive continuity from one RJ45 case to the other; if there is, avoid here. Fine elsewhere in your network of course.

This needs clarification. The best CAT8 cables I've tried (Furutech, Audio Sensibility, Synergistic Research) sound significantly better than the CAT6 and CAT7 cables I've tried (BJC, Melco, Sablon). You just have to use them appropriately. My thoughts on this from another post:

Ethernet cables to and from your switch?

We are using a generic shielded cable from the router to a Cisco 2960 switch and a AQ Vodka from switch to streamer. We have been looking at replacing the switch and have been advised to run a short length of unshielded CAT6 from the switch to the streamer. The reasoning behind this, shielded...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[audiobomber]

4.
The alternative options would be a Core/Server/Streamer in one box placed in the music room, serving the DAC directly and not running through the home network... this would be Antipodes K22 or some Innuos for example. No more issues with added noise, as the file does not travel the ethernet route but is fed directly (basically like a CD transport feeding the DAC)... logically (to me) no more need for ethernet switches (the only reason for internet connection is to actually give ROON connection to the database and make it run) - but this is actually not what ROON recommends, as Core and the rest of the system are not separated...

... so, which way is the best for ROON?

I have a couple of friends who use a K50 with Roon server. They were surprised to find that adding a switch improved the sound, even when playing from the K50 hard drive, where the LAN connection is only needed for control. I believe this is due to ground-plane noise.

 

[StreamFidelity]

I subscribed a lifetime membership for ROON many years ago - as I really like the software I want to build a digital system around it.

Me too.

Regardless of whether Roon is running on a Nucleus with Rock or as a Windows application on a laptop: the software is always executed on a computer. A computer is constantly busy reading, calculating and writing data.

In detail, these are, the music files that are streamed or read from an SSD. The music needs to be managed, for sorted by music genre, artist and, if necessary, with information about the musicians. It must also be possible to control the music, including selecting, playing, stopping and possibly adjusting the volume. DSP continues to challenge the computer.

This inevitably leads to frequent interrupts, which are very detrimental to audio operation. These can be disruptive latencies. An interrupt occurs when an external event occurs that interrupts the normal execution of a program. This event can be, for example, the pressing of a key on the keyboard, the arrival of a network message or the expiry of a timer. The operating system or processor is made aware of the event by the interrupt and can take appropriate action.

As soon as an interrupt is triggered, the processor stops its current task and jumps to a special interrupt handler that handles the event. The interrupt handler executes the code required to respond to the event.

Unfortunately, operating systems tend to allow all possible interrupts. Music playback can be affected because, for example, the internet-enabled washing machine reports that the laundry is ready. Broadcast is to blame for this. In a computer network, this is a message in which data packets are transmitted from one point to all participants in a communication network.

That is why it is better to outsource the music playback to two computers. One computer, let's call it Control PC, stores and streams the music and manages and controls it. This is where the Roon server would be located. The other computer, let's call it Audio PC, has only one task: sending the music files to the DAC. The Audio PC should only run processes that are directly related to music playback. It can therefore be a very lean operating system. For me it is the HQPlayer OS, for others perhaps a Roon Bridge.

I hope my answer doesn't add to the confusion. There are many more things to consider, but this is my answer to your question.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

This needs clarification. The best CAT8 cables I've tried (Furutech, Audio Sensibility, Synergistic Research) sound significantly better than the CAT6 and CAT7 cables I've tried (BJC, Melco, Sablon). You just have to use them appropriately. My thoughts on this from another post:

Ethernet cables to and from your switch?

We are using a generic shielded cable from the router to a Cisco 2960 switch and a AQ Vodka from switch to streamer. We have been looking at replacing the switch and have been advised to run a short length of unshielded CAT6 from the switch to the streamer. The reasoning behind this, shielded...

www.whatsbestforum.com

I have found the same in my system also Sir. Some folks just can’t hear the difference or their equipment can not reveal these subtleties. Compared to some cat 6 cables it was not that subtle.

 

[thedudeabides]

I have noted numerous posts regarding the variable audio quality of Roon heard by those with very revealing systems. Appears it has to do with their software updates and other computer issues I do not understand. Seems they have a great UI but assuming you can get an alternate product that is reasonably comparable in music info / selection area, why would you continue to tolerate the varying SQ (assuming it is audible on your system) of Roon?

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I have noted numerous posts regarding the variable audio quality of Roon heard by those with very revealing systems. Appears it has to do with their software updates and other computer issues I do not understand. Seems they have a great UI but assuming you can get an alternate product that is reasonably comparable in music info / selection area, why would you continue to tolerate the varying SQ (assuming it is audible on your system) of Roon?

This is true and have had first hand experience. I simply walked away from the Roon ecosystem for streaming and as a severe. I was an early adopter and purchased the lifetime Roon subscriptio. Friend adopted the Innuos sytems and environment and the differences where startling. Out when the Roon and in came the Innuos Zenith mk 3. Every update is truly and upgrade. It there better? I am sure.

 

[skinnyfla]

... well, each to their own I guess - I personally love ROON, I`ve bought it and really want to keep using it. Don`t know whether my system is less resolving than others, but I think it sounds great - the question is, how to build the best system around it... seems like getting a switch makes sense either way though, be it option 3 or 4... interesting... getting one from Nigel - quite exited to see what it will do to the current setup...

Prost - enjoy music !!!

 

[audiobomber]

I have noted numerous posts regarding the variable audio quality of Roon heard by those with very revealing systems. Appears it has to do with their software updates and other computer issues

I don't use Roon, but as I understand it, the Roon system consists of a server and a client. I believe the variable sound quality is due to the client software. You can use Roon server with another controller, like Squeezelite, BubbleUPnP, Linn Kazoo and others.

I have heard Roon server with Squeezelite in a very revealing system and it sounded better to me than Roon server with Roon Client.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

... well, each to their own I guess - I personally love ROON, I`ve bought it and really want to keep using it. Don`t know whether my system is less resolving than others, but I think it sounds great - the question is, how to build the best system around it... seems like getting a switch makes sense either way though, be it option 3 or 4... interesting... getting one from Nigel - quite exited to see what it will do to the current setup...

Prost - enjoy music !!!

Your personal satisfaction is all that matters. Enjoy the music.

 

[bryans]

Here is my advice for what it is worth (basically nothing). EVERYTHING has a sound. Every music management SW I have heard imparts something on the music. Every cable, amp, preamp, etc. imparts something on the music. Just go listen and if it sounds good to you, it is good for you.

Oh and by the way, in my system, I listen with and to Roon, Audrivana, Tidal, Qobuz, Local files, MQA, DSD and anything else I can find. Everything sounds different and I love it.

Just my $0.02 (before taxes). Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. Just enjoy the music.

 

[Al M.]

you really shouldn't be concerned about jitter in the ethernet domain - it's a completely different story once your streamer has converted the ethernet frames/packets to a stream of bits. In the ethernet world, jitter is a measure of the variability in the timing of packets arriving at any given point/node in the network; it has nothing to do with audio quality.

What can accumulate in a network is RFI noise which is of course not digital in nature at all, it's just a subset of electromagnetic inteference (EMI) in the radio freqency range which won't cause any harm digitally but you don't want it to get via cables, switches and streamers to your DAC where it can interfere with the analogue conversion process.

Yes, RFI noise is apparently a major reason why a lot of streaming has a hard time being as good as well-sorted out CD playback. Especially CD playback that uses a reclocker between CD transport and DAC as I do (see my signature), which brings jitter down to good-quality computer audio levels.

Statements that "any decent computer audio beats any CD playback" are hopelessly naive and elicit only a mild smile from me. I have experienced otherwise.

Often computer audio/streaming has a synthetic, "plasticky" sound signature that I am highly allergic to.

Not that high-quality streaming cannot be done, but it is not simple. Kudos to those who figure it out.

 

[Macattack]

I don't use Roon, but as I understand it, the Roon system consists of a server and a client. I believe the variable sound quality is due to the client software. You can use Roon server with another controller, like Squeezelite, BubbleUPnP, Linn Kazoo and others.

I have heard Roon server with Squeezelite in a very revealing system and it sounded better to me than Roon server with Roon Client.

I can attest there is a clear difference, when using an Antipodes K50, between ROON server and player, ROOM server & Squeeze Player and Squeeze for all functions.

What sounds best is personal but I have landed on ROON server & Squeeze player as my solution. It’s provides the meta data rich interface of ROON with an SQ uptick from improved clarity.

I am not an electrical expert on ground planes etc. but can attest to hearing an SQ improvement when I connected a chassis screw on my K50 to my Shunyata Altaira.

Now, I guess I need to find another Ethernet cable from my modified Buffalo switch to my K50 as I am using a 1m Supra Cat8+.

 

[NigelB]

I can attest there is a clear difference, when using an Antipodes K50, between ROON server and player, ROOM server & Squeeze Player and Squeeze for all functions.

What sounds best is personal but I have landed on ROON server & Squeeze player as my solution. It’s provides the meta data rich interface of ROON with an SQ uptick from improved clarity.

I am not an electrical expert on ground planes etc. but can attest to hearing an SQ improvement when I connected a chassis screw on my K50 to my Shunyata Altaira.

Now, I guess I need to find another Ethernet cable from my modified Buffalo switch to my K50 as I am using a 1m Supra Cat8+.

I like the Supra Cat8, it represents great engineering for a great price, but I wouldn't use it at this last switch-streamer stage. If you don't mind a hack, you could always loosen and slide back the locking cover and do whatever is necessary to detach the shield from the metal of the plug, leaving the shield floating at that end which you'd install at the streamer.

 

[NigelB]

I have found the same in my system also Sir. Some folks just can’t hear the difference or their equipment can not reveal these subtleties. Compared to some cat 6 cables it was not that subtle.

I suspect those "some folks" might be able to hear a difference but have a different opinion about which is better, partly down to personal taste of course.

If any owner/user of an exotic network cable happens to have a multimeter, it would be really interesting to know whether there is circuit continuity from one metal RJ45 plug to the other ie. whether the shield is grounded at both ends. For some reason, most maunfacturers will go into extraordinary detail about the number and type of shielding layers etc but miss this detail out.

A shield connected at both ends could carry noise, which would of course make it sound different. But if the cable sounds different AND the shield is floating at one end, then the difference is more likely to be an improvement due to more effective shielding. There are other things a cable manufacturer might be able to do ((layers, % coverage if a mesh braid, etc).) to make the cable even more effective at reducing noise reaching the streamer but this is a biggie.

 

[audiobomber]

I suspect those "some folks" might be able to hear a difference but have a different opinion about which is better, partly down to personal taste of course.

There's definitely that. For example you like and recommend Supra CAT8 and Melco C100. I find they both sound overly bright and musically uninvolving. Lots of people on WBF love the Sablon 2020, whereas I find it sounds too dark and lacking in microdetail.

If any owner/user of an exotic network cable happens to have a multimeter, it would be really interesting to know whether there is circuit continuity from one metal RJ45 plug to the other ie. whether the shield is grounded at both ends. For some reason, most maunfacturers will go into extraordinary detail about the number and type of shielding layers etc but miss this detail out.

I agree that ethernet cable manufacturers should discuss shield grounding.

All CAT8 cables have shields that are grounded at both ends. CAT6a shields may be ungrounded, grounded at one end, or grounded at both ends. I have CAT7 cables that are grounded at one end only, and others that are fully shield-tied.

A shield connected at both ends could carry noise, which would of course make it sound different. But if the cable sounds different AND the shield is floating at one end, then the difference is more likely to be an improvement due to more effective shielding. There are other things a cable manufacturer might be able to do ((layers, % coverage if a mesh braid, etc).) to make the cable even more effective at reducing noise reaching the streamer but this is a biggie.

I've heard people argue against grounding only one end of the shield, because it creates an antenna, which can pick up EMI/RFI. That's why it is recommended to have the grounded end upstream from the DAC.

I don't believe that being formulaic about construction will provide a definitive answer. It's more important to understand how grounding works, so that it won't cause a problem. Current will not flow through a fully grounded shield if the ground potential is the same at both ends. The most important thing IME is finding a LAN cable that suits your system and sonic preferences.

 

[vgmbpty]

I only stream (local and Qobuz/Tidal).
3 years ago I embarked on the mission to make it sound indistinguishable from an Esoteric transport I have access too, playing SACDs.
I forgot what I knew about power, electronics and network, and simply tested everything I could (It was a lot, as I have friends who are Hi Fi dealers and do a lot of trade ins). Now I reached a level that on most cases, I cannot distinguish between the Esoteric SACD, local files and streaming. If it helps, this is my current set up:

1) Inverse EtherRegen with external LPSU to convert ethernet to single mode, low loss optical fiber, using Finisar SFP.
2) SOtM switch with external LPS and fed with Mutec clock and Finisar SFP
3) Telegartner Switch with Initio LPS
4) Melco N1 (Streamer/end point / NAS), using another Finisar SFP, and fed by Mutec clock and USB output to DDC.
5) NUC with ROCK (Core) with LPS and connected to the SOtM swith through low loss fiber, LPS for the converter and Finisar SFPs
6) From the USB output of the Melco, go to Audio-GD 2120HE DDC (Digital to digital converter), feb by the Mutec clock, output in I2S
7) R2R DAC Audio-GD R7Mk3, also fed by the Mutec clock and the I2S.

Interconnects by Tubulus Concentus (Clock, I2S, USB, XLR).

You may say I spent $30K building this network, and they would be correct. OTOH, I tested several +30K USD DACs in my network without the expensive switches and clock, and the $4K DAC with my network is scarily very very close. So there you go. Spend $30K on your network, and enjoy all the streaming. Spend +$30K on a DAC (that will be outdated in a couple years). Spend $30K on a super high end transport, and have to buy CDs from now on.

I don't mean this is the ultimate network, but it is what worked the best sound for me, so far. I am very happy I spent the money on the network, improving step by step, not all at once. Added bonus: The NUC after going thru the fiber and the two switches, is finally able to up-sample (Roon DSP) without generating noise, hence actually improving the sound quality of the system. The DAC just plays in NOS mode. Beautiful!

For reference the rest of my system is and integrated Absolare Signature, Magico A5 speakers, MIT speaker cable and soon upgrading to Crystal power cables.