Calling Adjust+ experts...

bazelio

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So I read more about what the Adjust+ tool is actually measuring (this info isn't so easy to find!), and I was initially mistaken. It's measuring the phase of voltage induced in the adjacent channel relative to the original signal. I thought the "phase angle" was somehow trying to correlate absolute phase difference between L+R to crosstalk. The language he uses in many places is rather ambiguous, IMO. But this makes more sense, and I take back what I said above about wild phase variations within 0.5 degrees. I don't know how likely this is, as I have not paid close attention to it on my scope. (I don't consider it a first order problem)

As a first order, we should always care about lowest crosstalk. Reducing crosstalk reduces distortion, and it also reduces the distortion caused by an out-of-phase crosstalk signal! We shouldn't trade off higher crosstalk for improved crosstalk phase. In the Adjust+ "Compendium", Chris has one example showing this, but that example is misleading. You can clearly see that despite the crossover points of phase and crosstalk not aligning, the MEAN crosstalk is indeed lowest at the crossover of the L->R and R->L crosstalk phase angles. So, he's not actually accepting higher average crosstalk in that example. And it does look reasonable to leave the cart at the crossover point of the phase angles in that particular case. So really, where Adjust+ can come in handy, then, is where you have a mean crosstalk curve that bottoms out and flatlines across several azimuth angle settings. He also shows such examples of this in the compendium as well. This a fortunate situation as it now allows you to minimize both crosstalk and crosstalk phase offsets by choosing the point on the curves where both are lowest. That's useful.

Why would we care about crosstalk phase offset: because it causes distortion. Just keep in mind, it is very negligible distortion. In the scope trace shown in post #7, the crosstalk is out of phase by roughly 170 degrees. You can see it visually. The absolute mean channel separation would have needed to worsen by 3dB in order to make the phases aligned when I took those measurements. There is no tradeoff to be made here IMO - I want the additional 3 dB of separation. 3dB is significant. The harder it is to hear the crosstalk, the better. I would never make it 3dB more audible simply to align its phase to the fundamental.
 
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Brian Walsh

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Yesterday I did a setup but gave up when in my opinion it became obvious the cartridge was defective. It required such an extreme azimuth adjustment that could not be compensated for by SRA and antiskating adjustment that it was not acceptable, and the crosstalk figure from one channel was poor regardless of azimuth. Unfortunately the cartridge is out of warranty, although the cost of a rebuild exchange (a new cartridge to replace it) isn't outrageous. I was surprised the dealer who had sold the cartridge had set it up, tilted a lot in the same direction as I found but when the customer had expressed doubt, the dealer had more or less dismissed his concern. Ultimately the leaning turned out to be a problem, at which point he visited another dealer and asked about setup, and they referred him to me. I will go back to set up the replacement cartridge.
 

tima

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My question for the experts, especially Brian is: how far from perpendicular are you willing to go with your own stylus and records?

1° 1.5° 2° ??

Here is another graph. Same manufacturer, same model, different cartridge than the first graph.

TriiPlanar 2019-06-27_4-42-24.jpg
 

Brian Walsh

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In your case the phase curves are close together between -0.3 and -1.
 

tima

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In your case the phase curves are close together between -0.3 and -1.

Yes. The way I read the Adjust+ manual, given the above scenario Dr. F would go with Crosstalk at ~ 1.4° CW. Without knowing any more, that seems on the edge of being too much cartridge tilt.

I read people say that VTA and anti-skate can affect crosstalk. Is there any correlation between say, VTA up or down and crosstalk variation? TIA
 

microstrip

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Non expert suggestion - can you take measurements at -4º and -3º ? If the curves become symmetrical around -1.5º I would consider the possibility that the stylus or cantilever have a small lateral slant.
 

tima

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Non expert suggestion - can you take measurements at -4º and -3º ? If the curves become symmetrical around -1.5º I would consider the possibility that the stylus or cantilever have a small lateral slant.

Can only go as far as -3º - I may try this the two more steps to that point. Though the graphs now may suggest what you're saying.

Along with my VTA/azimuth correlation question, I'm curious how far - how many degrees - do or would others go to acheve optimal crosstalk. Isn't this a potential trade off between sonics vs. stylus wear and record wear?
 

bazelio

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With those measurements, I'd set my azimuth to -1.2 or so and call it a day. Crosstalk looks good there and phase deviation is minimal for a fairly broad range of azimuth alignments.

One benefit of owning this tool is you have the ability to answer your own questions regarding the effects of VTA and anti-skate on phase and crosstalk. :)
 

Brian Walsh

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One benefit of owning this tool is you have the ability to answer your own questions regarding the effects of VTA and anti-skate on phase and crosstalk.

True, but there are other parameters to explore such as tracking force and cartridge loading.
 

tima

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Here is another Adjust+ Azimuth Graphic. Different cartridge than above graphs.

AP_AzimuthGraphic_4 2019-10-08_4-03-22.jpg

Crosstalk is minimal at ~ +2.5° CCW with L->R -32.9db and R->L -33.5db, so -0.6db separation. That seems decent except for the +2.5° angle. Sonics reflect minimal crosstalk.

I experimented with different VTA (+/- 2mm) and VTF and switched alignment from Baerwald to UNI-Din. (Anti-skate is off. I need to find small 0.2g to 0.4g rubber grommets that will hold onto the anti-skate bar.) These adjustments had almost no impact on the AP azimuth measurement.

I return to a question asked earlier but not answered. I don't know that there is a 'right' answer (subjective) , but I"d like to hear people's thoughts on this: What is the maximum angle to which you'd rotate a cartridge and keep it as your default over time?
 

advanced101

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I have setup maybe 10 cartridges with Adjust+. I only feel comfortable up to +/-2 degrees, and that is pushing it. I had a Lyra Skala that required 2 degrees. I ended up sending it to Soundsmith to have it tweaked. The cartridge came back with this at <0.5 degrees. When referencing degrees I use the upgraded Feickert Spirit Level, fyi.
Lyra Skala Adjust Plus Screenshot after Soundsmith.JPG

The best cartridge I've measured is my Koetsu Blue Lace, this is at nearly flat (<0.1 degrees). Also to note that the best sounding and measuring VTA is with the cartridge perfectly parallel. Really easy to setup, outside of alignment, Smartractor helps. The difference between perfect crosstalk and perfect phase is very close, maybe <0.1 degrees, I choose perfect phase. This is an old screenshot. I checked my setting this weekend, as I do every few months and I am closer to 40/38 now with perfect phase.
Koetsu Azimuth.PNG
 
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bazelio

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What is the maximum angle to which you'd rotate a cartridge and keep it as your default over time?

I'd be comfy with a couple (2-2.5) degrees. I have an acquaintance at Soundsmith and texted him the question this morning for an expert opinion. He said a few degrees of tilt is not hyper critical and is within the margin of error in building a phono cartridge. He said they see diamond stylii ground with up to 5 degrees of error, and account for it when aligning a stylus to the generator and aligning the generator to the body. But if the final result is within a few degrees, that's acceptable.
 
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tima

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I'd be comfy with a couple (2-2.5) degrees. I have an acquaintance at Soundsmith and texted him the question this morning for an expert opinion. He said a few degrees of tilt is not hyper critical and is within the margin of error in building a phono cartridge. He said they see diamond stylii ground with up to 5 degrees of error, and account for it when aligning a stylus to the generator and aligning the generator to the body. But if the final result is within a few degrees, that's acceptable.

Thanks for sharing your reply from an actual cartridge manufacturer - most appreciated. At 2.5° degrees there is considerable positive difference that I'd hate to give up - but would - for the sake of my record collection. I'd not had a situation where I had to go more that 1.5° and his remarks bring comfort.
 

Barry

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One benefit of owning this tool is you have the ability to answer your own questions regarding the effects of VTA and anti-skate on phase and crosstalk.

True, but there are other parameters to explore such as tracking force and cartridge loading.

I'm curious if you can share any general observations about changing these parameters to improve crosstalk and phase angle.
 

tima

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I'm curious if you can share any general observations about changing these parameters to improve crosstalk and phase angle.

I've read that for arms with an offset/angled headshell, VTA will alter azimuth. Richard Mak says alignment choice can be an influence. Anti-skate is fairly obvious.

I tried different combinations of all those, including a switch from Baerwald to UNI-Din, and say negligible effect on Adust+ measurements. I think it's very much cartridge dependent.

https://www.analogmagik.com/azimuth
 

bazelio

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I've read that for arms with an offset/angled headshell, VTA will alter azimuth. Richard Mak says alignment choice can be an influence. Anti-skate is fairly obvious.

I tried different combinations of all those, including a switch from Baerwald to UNI-Din, and say negligible effect on Adust+ measurements. I think it's very much cartridge dependent.

https://www.analogmagik.com/azimuth
You'll need a tangential arm to avoid this interplay completely.
 

Brian Walsh

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You'll need a tangential arm to avoid this interplay completely.
And to introduce other challenges. ;)

Actually tima is correct at least to some extent. Every cartridge, even among the same model, is most often a little different from another sample. Cartridges are made by hand, thus some variations.
 

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