Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[microstrip]

Addicted to vinyl? No it is the medium that has been around the longest. Also what of tape?

Only a few can afford to have a quantity of tapes that is enough to be addicted. I have a few - the TapeProject collection, and would be very happy if all my CDs were converted by magic in copies of master tapes!

Unfortunately science tells me this is impossible and I am not a magic believer ...

 

[hopkins]

I didn’t want to sound negative. I just wanted to add a reality check. I have invested heavily in both digital and analog, for the simple reason that it enhances my ability to listen to all types of music with the widest possible reach. I have bought over the past two to three years a large collection of mono jazz vinyl albums that might never make it to Roon. The only way to listen to a lot of great jazz from the 1930s to the 1950s is on vinyl in mono. It sounds splendid to my ears, even though it’s obviously not very faithful to the real live sound. When I listen to the sound of a big band from the 1930s or 1940s in mono vinyl, I can only imagine how thrilling it must have been to hear the great jazz performers live! I can’t do that, sadly, without time travel. So, mono vinyl is the best I can do. For example, the wonderful Time-Life Jazz series has incomparable liner notes written by music lovers who knew the jazz classics. This series is worth acquiring for just the liner notes with the fabulous black and white photographs. To me, no streaming album compares to this level of liner notes and the dedication required in producing this series.

Very little of the 1930s to 1950s is still unavailable in digital format. What is not available in digital format is probably only available on 78s. There is also material from that period that is only available in digital format (ex: if I am not mistaken, the Bill Savory recordings, and perhaps other broadcasts).

For the 1930s and 1940s, those vinyl re-issues are not necessarily better than the digital re-issues (hard to generalize).

As for liner notes, you can find a lot on the Internet Archive, or using other sources. I bought a few vinyl box sets just for the liner notes, but they are rare exceptions. Liner notes can be scanned (I run them through OCR as well and save the text in my album files).

At this point, someone wanting to build a great collection of early jazz may be better off with digital + 78s, than vinyl.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

100% I was excited to get my copy (vinyl) and sat down to listen and two minutes in my thought was great, I am sitting in a smokey club listening to very average non inspiring music. I have listened to it exactly that one time and put it away forever. Much of the same can be said about a whole lot of these said audiophile recordings I gathered up a few years ago, one time listen and there they sit, including many of the faves here.
It does however reinforce source is king.

agree......with analog the media mostly dwarfs the significance of the hardware within reason. past a certain point of hardware quality the media asserts itself.

Beth Hart Front and Center, to me is an amazing performance and recording.

Has anyone here bought the Audio Nautes Reference tape series of JATPS 1/1 copies of the master tapes?

To wrap it up, come on guys freekin hug it out and move on!

i've owned an earlier reel to reel (4 reels) dub of JATPS 1/1 copy for 13 + years. it's very good, and do listen to it from time to time. i have some very good pressings of it too, and the tape is much better.

agree it does a very good job of resembling a live jazz club experience. i have a couple of tapes that do it better, but only a couple.

i do need to be in the right frame of mind for that music. i like it and but only love it occasionally. probably the experience far surpasses the anticipation.

 

[Rexp]

It's the same album.

Either way, get a copy of Giant Steps on vinyl, you might prefer the sound quality.

 

[Lee]

100% I was excited to get my copy (vinyl) and sat down to listen and two minutes in my thought was great, I am sitting in a smokey club listening to very average non inspiring music. I have listened to it exactly that one time and put it away forever. Much of the same can be said about a whole lot of these said audiophile recordings I gathered up a few years ago, one time listen and there they sit, including many of the faves here.
It does however reinforce source is king.

Beth Hart Front and Center, to me is an amazing performance and recording.

Has anyone here bought the Audio Nautes Reference tape series of JATPS 1/1 copies of the master tapes?

To wrap it up, come on guys freekin hug it out and move on!

I believe @MylesBAstor has this tape.

 

[Another Johnson]

Giant Steps is not about the sound. Giant Steps is about the incredible structure.

The notes are all there in every format for those that are able to read them and discern the advance.

Joe Pass actually took it to the guitar.

‘Trane’s reputation was sealed with Giant Steps, which is pretty accessible, even to those who only listen.

His final state, with Meditations, Ascension, A Love Supreme, etc is far harder for pure listeners to tolerate. But they showed how far he could go.

You probably know that an actual religion was founded to worship him in Sainthood. There’s an actual church.

 

[Al M.]

Giant Steps is not about the sound. Giant Steps is about the incredible structure.

The notes are all there in every format for those that are able to read them and discern the advance.

Joe Pass actually took it to the guitar.

‘Trane’s reputation was sealed with Giant Steps, which is pretty accessible, even to those who only listen.

His final state, with Meditations, a Love Supreme, etc is far harder for pure listeners to tolerate. But they showed how far he could go.

You probably know that an actual religion was founded to worship him in Sainthood. There’s an actual church.

Great post. I love Giant Steps, but I also love his later hardcore avant-garde music. But then, I like hardcore avant-garde in general, be it jazz or modern classical.

One of my all-time favorite composers is Stockhausen. Miles Davis, by the way, named Stockhausen as an important influence for his later music.

 

[hopkins]

Either way, get a copy of Giant Steps on vinyl, you might prefer the sound quality.

I have no issues with the digital version, played on my system.

 

[JackD201]

Giant Steps is not about the sound. Giant Steps is about the incredible structure.

The notes are all there in every format for those that are able to read them and discern the advance.

Joe Pass actually took it to the guitar.

‘Trane’s reputation was sealed with Giant Steps, which is pretty accessible, even to those who only listen.

His final state, with Meditations, Ascension, A Love Supreme, etc is far harder for pure listeners to tolerate. But they showed how far he could go.

You probably know that an actual religion was founded to worship him in Sainthood. There’s an actual church.

Aww man, now I'm going to have circle of fifths looping in my head all day!

 

[Rexp]

Giant Steps is not about the sound. Giant Steps is about the incredible structure.

The notes are all there in every format for those that are able to read them and discern the advance.

Joe Pass actually took it to the guitar.

‘Trane’s reputation was sealed with Giant Steps, which is pretty accessible, even to those who only listen.

His final state, with Meditations, Ascension, A Love Supreme, etc is far harder for pure listeners to tolerate. But they showed how far he could go.

You probably know that an actual religion was founded to worship him in Sainthood. There’s an actual church.

And do you prefer the LP to a digital version, assuming your LP is AAA?

 

[Another Johnson]

And do you prefer the LP to a digital version, assuming your LP is AAA?

No. My (very early) vinyl is great. The CD was mastered from the original tape, and they’d been stored a long time. But it’s decent, and it includes 5 bonus tracks of session songs with other famous sidemen.

What I like best is the 24/192 2020 remastered version on Qobuz streamed on the Rossini using Mosaic. It has just the original seven tracks.

FWIW, at last count there have been 48 or more issues of the Giant Steps session, with and without bonus tracks, deluxe editions, more than one remastering, on vinyl, cd or maybe even some other formats. So when we claim one format is better than another we might all be right for the subset of issues we’ve heard.

 

[Al M.]

No. My (very early) vinyl is great. The CD was mastered from the original tape, and they’d been stored a long time. But it’s decent, and it includes 5 bonus tracks of session songs with other famous sidemen.

That's the 1987 CD remastering. I own the 1998 CD remastering with a total of 8 bonus tracks, and it sounds great. I just spun a few tracks yesterday.

For the CD versions and lots of other info, see:

Giant Steps - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Al M.]

Recorded live large orchestra pieces are the same.

Unlike on jazz, I don't agree on orchestral vinyl. A lot of it is dynamically compressed, even though there are notable exceptions. The new Deutsche Grammophon AAA remasterings/re-pressings are reportedly very dynamic too.

The more complex the music and the more people playing instruments especially natural (non electronic) instruments and especially in a live recording the more digital sources suffer.

Orchestral complexity should not be a problem for properly implemented digital.

 

[hopkins]

Tommy Flanagan's 1982 tribute album "Giant Steps" is good (and well recorded). It does not quite reach the incredible drive and intensity of the original, but he gets pretty funky in his solo here:

As for the original, I really like that Mono version I linked. The sound is "raw" and I find it suits the music very well. It is available on CD, LP, and on Qobuz: https://play.qobuz.com/album/0603497879311

 

[Rensselaer]

a

Peer review or not
They can't argue with these facts .
Sorry .
But vinyl is so inferior it's not even a fair comparison
View attachment 113855View attachment 113856
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The Rolls-Royce Boat Tail can do 0-100kph in 5.8 seconds
The Porsche 911 GT3 can do 0-100kph in 3.3 seconds
The Ariel Atom can do 0-100kph in 2.7 seconds

The Rolls-Royce Boat Tail's maximum RPM is 5,350
The Porsche 911 GT3's maximum RPM (by limiter) is 9,000
The Ariel Atom's maximum RPM is 10,500

The price of the Rolls-Royce Boat Tail is $28million
The price of the Porsche 911 GT3 starts at $161,000
The price of the Ariel Atom is less than $80,000

There are the facts, why is cost opposite to what the measurements show to be the best car?

 

[Rensselaer]

I think it's kind of easy for digital to sound relatively good on vintage loudspeakers, because, I think, the high frequency roll-off of vintage loudspeakers tends to suppress any edgy artifacts of digital playback.

Not on my vintage loudspeakers.

 

[Rensselaer]

agree......with analog the media mostly dwarfs the significance of the hardware within reason. past a certain point of hardware quality the media asserts itself.


i've owned an earlier reel to reel (4 reels) dub of JATPS 1/1 copy for 13 + years. it's very good, and do listen to it from time to time. i have some very good pressings of it too, and the tape is much better.

agree it does a very good job of resembling a live jazz club experience. i have a couple of tapes that do it better, but only a couple.

i do need to be in the right frame of mind for that music. i like it and but only love it occasionally. probably the experience far surpasses the anticipation.

FYI: I just received a copy of "Chet" recut to 180gm from Craft Recordings for only $29.99 + shipping (Chet Baker's iconic LP, on Discogs for like $400 in VG+ condition)! Sounds fantastic, If anyone is interested.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

There are the facts, why is cost opposite to what the measurements show to be the best car?

...I think you mean "the fastest 0-100kph of the three arbitrarily selected cars." As soon as one says: "best" it all goes wobbly, IMO. Cars. Audio. Peach pie.

2018 Rimac Nevera will get you 0-100kph in 1.3 secs (according to Supercarlists), if you can't stand that Boat Tail pig. And it's a bargain at 2.2 mil. Is that the best?

 

[Audiophile666]

The Rolls-Royce Boat Tail can do 0-100kph in 5.8 seconds
The Porsche 911 GT3 can do 0-100kph in 3.3 seconds
The Ariel Atom can do 0-100kph in 2.7 seconds

The Rolls-Royce Boat Tail's maximum RPM is 5,350
The Porsche 911 GT3's maximum RPM (by limiter) is 9,000
The Ariel Atom's maximum RPM is 10,500

The price of the Rolls-Royce Boat Tail is $28million
The price of the Porsche 911 GT3 starts at $161,000
The price of the Ariel Atom is less than $80,000

There are the facts, why is cost opposite to what the measurements show to be the best car?

Your example is irrelevant and not comparable at all

 

[DasguteOhr]

...I think you mean "the fastest 0-100kph of the three arbitrarily selected cars." As soon as one says: "best" it all goes wobbly, IMO. Cars. Audio. Peach pie.

2018 Rimac Nevera will get you 0-100kph in 1.3 secs (according to Supercarlists), if you can't stand that Boat Tail pig. And it's a bargain at 2.2 mil. Is that the best?

not yet confirmed record rimac, the two fastest production vehicles aspark owl 0-100 1,72sek/ 0-300kmh 10.4 sec electric car, königsegg jesko v8 bi turbo hybrid 0-300kmh 10.5 sec.