Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[wil]

So why do some recordings sound good on most digital players and some only sound good on high end players?

The best digital systems will often make the experience of listening to inferior recordings better. That's independent of excellent recordings sounding excellent on a good digital system.

 

[ScottK]

Head on over to the “Suspension of Disbelief” thread and you will see that some systems get you close, in some instances.

I would need to hear! Going with the photography analogy its like saying the best 2D or 3D photograph accurately represents what we would see if we were there. My response, not even close!

 

[wil]

No that forum is full of computer geeks who have little interest in music and run by a guy who hates vinyl. Didn't you learn that already?

This is a comic book caricature.

 

[Joe Whip]

As a writer at AudiophileStyle, I can assure you I am no computer geek.

 

[wil]

I'm sorry to inform you of this, but I and Henning Serger has conducted tests that have proven this theory wrong.

There is currently no commercially available digital capture device that exceeds the average median resolution of film.

Furthermore, ADOX CMS 20 II records to the very limit of light itself.

The problem is, there is no way for us to see this resolution but thru a laboratory grade microscope.

Fortunately we don't experience photography or any other visual artform through lab grade microscopes.

This has no bearing on the ultimate quality of a photographic print.

 

[microstrip]

Excuse me but can you explain how Cd ripping software can confirm Cd players' error correction accuracy? How do you connect a Cd player to a computer and run Cd ripping software? Which is the appropriate Cd ripping software? Or did you mean Cd-Rom when saying Cd player?

OK, I assume you now understood the correction mechanisms ... It also seems your CD knowledge just comes from the 90's and stopped there. For the purpose of our talk , CD players or CD-ROM are exactly the same thing - many CD players used CD-ROM drives.

CD ripping become very popular a few years ago and a collective effort was developed a mechanism that assures us that the ripped files are bit exact - a signature is generated after the rip and compared with the collective database of existing signatures. I ripped many CDs using dBPoweramp and could see that, except for scratched or CDs suffering from CD rot . Please google AccurateRip for more details.

 

[microstrip]

Digital lacks the fine resolution of analog, which presents itself in the form of less inner detail and a diminished sense of air and space around the instruments and performers.

You are forgetting the digital induced headaches and damage to the spindles of Linn turntables when playing digital LPs.

We have all kind of subjective opinions on these matters and each of us has his own beliefs, based on his experiences and his biases. Just repeating the same old two line slogans forever does not add anything too the thread.

 

[msimanyi]

So that is quite a bit of an effort.
Not feasible for the common audiophile.

Where would be the best sonic compromise for you?
I mean in commercially available products, again software AND hardware.

This doesn't answer your question, but the link is to what I interpret as a fairly balanced article describing the type of comparison that Soundmann is describing. Since he seems highly polarized on the subject, this *may* be a bit less biased source of info (though note the article - not the test - is from a company developing and selling digital products, and I'll state the obvious bias in my own case, as I own one of their products.)

Vinyl versus Digital - Grimm Audio

The Dutch online magazine Alpha Audio did an unusual live stream on Sunday Feb 27th. In collaboration with Artone Studio in Haarlem, a live recording was made of singer songwriter Tim Knol, running both a completely analog (vinyl!) recording chain and a completely digital recording chain in...

www.grimmaudio.com

I'm pretty sure I've linked that article before. I find it a fascinating bit of observation.

 

[SoundMann]

Since he seems highly polarized on the subject, this *may* be a bit less biased source of info

Yet the results of this test mirrored mine! I am only here to expose the true findings of my tests and research.

 

[Carlos269]

This doesn't answer your question, but the link is to what I interpret as a fairly balanced article describing the type of comparison that Soundmann is describing. Since he seems highly polarized on the subject, this *may* be a bit less biased source of info (though note the article - not the test - is from a company developing and selling digital products, and I'll state the obvious bias in my own case, as I own one of their products.)

Vinyl versus Digital - Grimm Audio

The Dutch online magazine Alpha Audio did an unusual live stream on Sunday Feb 27th. In collaboration with Artone Studio in Haarlem, a live recording was made of singer songwriter Tim Knol, running both a completely analog (vinyl!) recording chain and a completely digital recording chain in...

www.grimmaudio.com

I'm pretty sure I've linked that article before. I find it a fascinating bit of observation.

This is a good article and I have no issues or disagreements with its basis and conclusion.

 

[Carlos269]

Yet the results of this test mirrored mine! I am only here to expose the true findings of my tests and research.

George, now it’s the time to publish your research and tests so that you can pass along your findings and knowledge.

 

[microstrip]

A Direct to disc pressing sounds closest to a live unamplified acoustical performance.

A top grade, well pressed record is virtually transparent when played with the proper equipment.

Perhaps under very specif conditions. But different conditions could easily reverse such subjective findings.

BTW, microphone feeds prepared for direct to disk are not typical microphone feeds - it is why some analog fans hate most direct cuts, fining them "non natural".

 

[Lee]

This is a comic book caricature.

Yes, I have had some issues in the past with Chris Connaker but he's a really good guy and very knowledgeable. I have really enjoyed our phone conversations. I also respect how he has grown his forum.

One of the benefits of my work at TAS was a rekindling of my relationship with Chris.

 

[microstrip]

This is a good article and I have no issues or disagreements with its basis and conclusion.

Yes, but the kind of material being recorded and gear being used limits a lot the comprehensiveness of the conclusions.

IMO, articles reporting listening tests should report exhaustively the conditions and terms of the experience. The high end is an hobby where small details can affect drastically a listening experience.

 

[Lee]

As another side note, I went to a friends house last week to hear him play piano. He is very good but what struck me is how far we are, in the hifi world, from reproducing actual sound. Personally I don't think we will get there with current tech. Mostly we argue about preference for some artificial facsimile of sound.

I have a slightly different perspective. I believe we are getting closer to realistic sound in digital every year. And I think that is exciting.

Advances in DACs like the Apex improvements, the reduction of noise via better conditioners and grounding, and the upward improvement in speakers (better crossovers, more inert cabinets, timing, higher quality drivers) all contribute to something fairly magical in 2023. At least that's what I hear at my house.

 

[DasguteOhr]

You have to make a fundamental distinction as to what you value when listening to music. if you like timing, musicality and dynamics. Then you should listen to the NOS-DAC. They don't have digital filters that add artifacts (digital harshness in the sound?) to the music signal. If you like the resolution, or even want to hear the recording in all its detail and texture, an oversampling DAC is probably a better choice. That's how I perceive it when listening to music, for example with a Rockna DAC, where you can switch between filter and nos mode.

 

[Carlos269]

You have to make a fundamental distinction as to what you value when listening to music. if you like timing, musicality and dynamics. Then you should listen to the NOS-DAC. They don't have digital filters that add artifacts (digital harshness in the sound?) to the music signal. If you like the resolution, or even want to hear the recording in all its detail and texture, an oversampling DAC is probably a better choice. That's how I perceive it when listening to music, for example with a Rockna DAC, where you can switch between filter and nos mode.

Try listening to high-rate native format DSD, at DSD512 or DSD1024, from HQPLAYER into a true 1-bit chip-less, no dac IC, dac and you will get both the timing, musicality and dynamics, along with the resolution, texture and inner detail.

 

[Ron Resnick]

A Direct to disc pressing sounds closest to a live unamplified acoustical performance.

Do you have an experience-based opinion on whether a direct-to-disc pressing or a reel-to-reel tape recording from the same mic feed as the direct-to-disc sounds closer to a live unamplified acoustical performance?

 

[mtemur]

OK, I assume you now understood the correction mechanisms ... It also seems your CD knowledge just comes from the 90's and stopped there. For the purpose of our talk , CD players or CD-ROM are exactly the same thing - many CD players used CD-ROM drives.

CD ripping become very popular a few years ago and a collective effort was developed a mechanism that assures us that the ripped files are bit exact - a signature is generated after the rip and compared with the collective database of existing signatures. I ripped many CDs using dBPoweramp and could see that, except for scratched or CDs suffering from CD rot . Please google AccurateRip for more details.

Don't be so quick to draw conclusions. My Cd knowledge includes latest generation too. And to your surprise I very well know Cd ripping. I extensively used XLD on macOS, EAC on windows for many years. dBPoweramp is not as versatile as other two but I used it for many years on macOS too. If you need to consult on anything on any of those programs I would be glad to help cause I'm still using them.

I also know Accuraterip database's existence for a long time and it's not only useful for comparing rips but also determining drive's read and write offset values. As I noted before don't hesitate to ask help.

Cd player and CD-ROM are not exatly the same thing as you said but if you meant recent Cd players usually have DVD-ROM drives as a transport than it's ok. But you still didn't answer my question. Please answer this one or any question I asked before.
Can you explain how Cd ripping software can confirm Cd players' error correction accuracy? How do you connect a Cd player (even if it has a DVD-ROM drive as a transport) to a computer and run Cd ripping software?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Try listening to high-rate native format DSD, at DSD512 or DSD1024, from HQPLAYER into a true 1-bit chip-less, no dac IC, dac and you will get both the timing, musicality and dynamics, along with the resolution, texture and inner detail.

you may be right that dsd sounds better. the disadvantage the choice of music in native dsd is very limited. therefore just a gimmick not really a viable option for music listen. upsampling is not my cup of tea.