Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

Your example is irrelevant and not comparable at all
So are your "measurements", they do not establish that digital sounds better than analogue. My flippant entry was to demonstrate real measurements can be taken of anything which appear to show superiority over another set of measurements but do not, in fact, prove the premise that is being claimed.
 
a

Peer review or not
They can't argue with these facts .
Sorry .
But vinyl is so inferior it's not even a fair comparison
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Please provide the actual data points. Who authored this research and collected the data to draw these conclusions, where was this done and what equipment was used to collect the data to draw these conclusions. Anyone can make a statement and then it can be misrepresented as fact. Validation is critical, is this repeatable or is it junk data from a junk website like ASR?

I am going to call a spade a spade.

Validate the work as of right now you have no credibility in any of your claims.
 
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Great post. I love Giant Steps, but I also love his later hardcore avant-garde music. But then, I like hardcore avant-garde in general, be it jazz or modern classical.

One of my all-time favorite composers is Stockhausen. Miles Davis, by the way, named Stockhausen as an important influence for his later music.
Love Stockhausen what about John Cage, Xenakis, Ligeti, Varese, Chavez, and Pierre Henry.
 
Please provide the actual data points. Who authored this research and collected the data to draw these conclusions, where was this done and what equipment was used to collect the data to draw these conclusions. Anyone can make a statement and then it can be misrepresented as fact. Validation is critical, is this repeatable or is it junk data from a junk website like ASR?

I am going to call a spade a spade.

Validate the work as of right now you have no credibility in any of your claims.

He copied his accusations from Sound Guys
 
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He copied his accusations from Sound Guys
That article is not a scientific article, if that is what his source is.

It appears to be a biased opinion, supported by very little alleged data that was seemingly cherry picked (and incomplete) in order to support the author’s bias.

In any case, the thread asks if digital can get to vinyl sound and at what price?

The Sound Guys article (if that is his source), does not address that question but rather tries to make a case that digital sounds better than analogue. Since that isn’t what this thread is about, not discussing the question of the OP, pearljam should perhaps use it to start a new thread?
 
That article is not a scientific article, if that is what his source is.

It appears to be a biased opinion, supported by very little alleged data that was seemingly cherry picked (and incomplete) in order to support the author’s bias.

In any case, the thread asks if digital can get to vinyl sound and at what price?

The Sound Guys article (if that is his source), does not address that question but rather tries to make a case that digital sounds better than analogue. Since that isn’t what this thread is about, not discussing the question of the OP, pearljam should perhaps use it to start a new thread?
Agree 100%. Time to move along, sorry.
 
That article is not a scientific article, if that is what his source is.

It appears to be a biased opinion, supported by very little alleged data that was seemingly cherry picked (and incomplete) in order to support the author’s bias.

Pearljam touts channel separation of digital vs vinyl. Yet possibly channel separation greater than 30 dB isn't even that important, per discussions on Audio Science Review (ASR) no less:


If true, then vinyl should be just fine.

Numbers to show alleged superiority of a technology are fun, the question is always: "What do they mean, exactly?".
 
Pearljam touts channel separation of digital vs vinyl. Yet possibly channel separation greater than 30 dB isn't even that important?

Correct, it is sufficient. But the numbers these guys are touting are exceeded thru reference-class vinyl playback.

Furthermore, the basic measurement of seperation doesn't take into account the differences in inner spacial seperation either.
 
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I rarely comment on music choice… but I think many conflate greatest recording with greatest performance or greatest music… when they’re really just listening to the recording… hmmm like Jazz at the Prawn Shop :eek: feeling validated by all those clinking glasses and atmos :rolleyes:
Scandinavian Jazz bands are great, what they lack in talent, they make up for with enthusiasm ! :) And sometimes having only a rudimentary knowledge of English does not hold them back from singing whole albums in said language ! ;)
 
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(...) Validate the work as of right now you have no credibility in any of your claims.

Unfortunately most Pearljam arguments and his use of measurements are so poor that he is doing a service to those who claim that vinyl is better than digital ...

His quotes are inappropriate for any decent discussion - just the low level basic usual stuff being put in a mixer,
 
Unfortunately most Pearljam arguments and his use of measurements are so poor that he is doing a service to those who claim that vinyl is better than digital ...

His quotes are inappropriate for any decent discussion - just the low level basic usual stuff being put in a mixer,

I really wish my friend Tim DeParavicini was still around to provide comments. He felt that LP was very much at least at dvd-audio quality.
 
Maybe bring some real scientific data. As you can see no one here is impressed by regurgitated conjecture from armchair engineers from questionable forums and websites. If you look at the pedigree around here we have Audio Engineers, Industry Leaders and Academia contributing. Snippets form questionable websites have shot your credibility right into the sewer. Had on back to where you came unless you e=want to bring an intelligent argument or start your own thread that most will ignore.
 
I currently have both digital and vinyl front ends. For the most part I think my vinyl playback sounds, let's say, 10% better than most of my comparable digital recordings (IMO). I've got the itch to try MSB or DCS stacks to take out that last percentage . Problem is I'm not convinced I could get there even after spending 10"s of thousands of dollars to do it. I'm fairly happy with my current DAC/Streamer and was thinking it might make better sense to wait a couple of years to see what may shake out of vendors in this fast changing technology. For those who are or were in a similar situation any advice would be appreciated.View attachment 113795

I’m enjoying some of the highest end digital and analog systems available today. Digital has its benefits and I have no issues at all when I listen to it. It’s very musical and engaging (on my system). But vinyl blows it away. There’s just no comparison if your ultimate goal is natural sound, as close to ‘being there’ as possible.
Digital system: Nagra HD DAC X - Taiko Extreme (XDMS, Taiko Switch+Network card)
Analog: Nagra Reference TT / Nagra 4ohm cartridge / DartZeel 18NS

The “problem” with digital is actually in the A to D conversion when it’s recorded. Unless that’s converted by audiophile grade equipment, you’re not going to get beyond a certain wall, no matter how good the D to A side is.
Note however that cost is lower for digital than analog, at least at the highest end. A world class TT is over $100K. The Taiko Extreme is about half that, even with the Switch and upcoming Router.
Hope this helps!
 
Comparing directly like for like between a digital source input and a pure analogue source input, the two are physically completely different i.e. digital is a man-made non natural signal (made up of lots of zero's and one's to fit as near as possible sinusoidal wave forms of different frequencies) and pure analogue (made up of lots of natural sinusoidal wave forms of all of the frequencies in the music and non music spectrums that are captured from directly hearing i.e. a live performance to or from pure analogue recordings).

Notice the word 'pure', as this is very important in the analogue world, especially now companies are selling vinyl which just has digital based recordings i.e. not pure analogue copied / stamped onto the vinyl and people then thinking they are playing and listening to pure analogue music when in reality they are not.

No matter how accurate and how many mathematical formulae's are used to convert a digital music signal to an analogue signal with aiming to perfectly fit (curve fit) an analogue sine wave and keep to the musical timing etc. (that many DAC Designers & Manufacturers aim for as given in their marketing info etc.) it is not possible to mimic / copy ALL of the natural analogue sounds that we hear (and our brains are very sensitive to) including the non-musical sounds we hear especially at live performances. And this is just for one sine wave at one musical and non musical frequency. Imagine then having to curve fit & model multiple sine waves that cover all of the musical and non-musical frequencies you are hearing at the same time. Physically this is impossible to do no matter how powerful the digital computer is and how many mathematical formulas is trying to determine the sinusoidal curve fitting for multiple sine waves all at the same time.

Therefore, you will often hear the greater differences between digital and analogue source music when the music is very complicated (in terms of number of natural instruments being played at the same time where in the analogue world you hear all of the different natural and in reality the analogue sounds etc. from these instruments) and is a live recording where you can also hear the natural and in reality resonance frequencies etc. of the venue the music is being played in i.e. live classical music from a large orchestra in a large venue being one example where a well set-up analogue input system will sound more real than a digital input system.

However digital sources have become very popular with classical music listeners with one of the reasons (as well as digital being very convenient and of a more repeatable quality the source material comes from i.e. streaming or CDs vs vinyl) as they don't get the distractions from possible crackles and pops and record surface noise during the quiet passages as you get with a pure analogue input system. This has led to some people ditching their high-end analogue input set-up for a high end digital input set-up thinking they are getting a more superior sound which they may be hearing from being the digital sound being of a higher clarity with none of the distractions for the quiet pieces you get from an analogue input set-up.

The flip-side to this is, a well set-up analogue input system will always sound more natural and real sounding than digital input system.
If you can eradicate the distractions (ideally completely) you can be subjected to from a record i.e. the pops & crackles and record surface noise etc. during quiet passages you will have (to my ears) a much more natural and enjoyable sound.
I am going through this journey myself (i.e. reducing / eliminating the pops & crackles and record surface noise etc) as I mainly listen through my headphone system which is highly sensitive to such noises with increasing my record cleaning regime (to include ultrasonic cleaning on top of my Keith Monks RCM cleaning) and eliminating static to a minimum when playing my records.
Also another major disadvantage with records themselves is the often 'pot luck' in buying a record that is well pressed, has no surface damage, not excessively warped etc. Then you also have to make sure your TT, tonearm, and cartridge are optimally set-up to get the best sound possible from them which is far more rigorous and more expensive (especially with set-up tools and accessories etc.) than say a PC used for streaming or a CD Transporter or Player.

However even with these disadvantages for vinyl play-back I still listen to my vinyl collection (which is also rapidly growing a lot quicker than my CD & SACD collection) 90 to 95% of the time compared to my CD collection as (to my ears) it is a much more enjoyable listening experience. I also love to tinker, so the setting up of a TT system I enjoy, and I enjoy the many steps ritual of putting a record on the platter and playing it whilst I look at the lovely artwork or write-ups you get on the album covers. And for me that say's it all !

Just my two pennies worth on this very interesting topic for discussion.
You said it better than me.
On a high end and we’ll setup TT with a good record there is no background noise. Zero. My digital components actually seem a slight bit higher in terms of noise floor, and these are about the best you can get.
 
I would disagree. As long as we have those out there like Emile of Taiko Audio stretching the boundaries of streaming capabilities I believe it could and possibly will happen one day.
Not until someone (perhaps Emile) addresses the A to D conversion when the recording is made. None of the pro studio gear addresses noise and power like Taiko has done.
 
Maybe bring some real scientific data. As you can see no one here is impressed by regurgitated conjecture from armchair engineers from questionable forums and websites. If you look at the pedigree around here we have Audio Engineers, Industry Leaders and Academia contributing. Snippets form questionable websites have shot your credibility right into the sewer. Had on back to where you came unless you e=want to bring an intelligent argument or start your own thread that most will ignore.

If SVS is not enough for you, it's not my problemScreenshot_20230730_220816_Chrome.jpg
 
Unfortunately most Pearljam arguments and his use of measurements are so poor that he is doing a service to those who claim that vinyl is better than digital ...

True. In an analogous manner, unfortunately those who claim that vinyl is better than digital do their own cause a grave disservice by regurgitating fatal misunderstandings of digital theory ("stairsteps", lack of basic understanding of the Shannon-Nyquist theorem etc).
 

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