Can You Believe This-The Government Wants Us To Go EV but In So Doing They Will impose a gas surcharge

[Mike Lavigne]

Just because most Tesla buyers add lots of options means nothing. The base car is amazing at $39K.

lots of amazing $39k cars out there. most markets don't chose a Tesla Model 3 for that money. a few do.

the average buyer is not buying the average car.....and paying the average transaction costs. the volume is far greater below that mean than above it. the cars much, much, more costly pull up the mean.

trying to make a case that the Tesla is an everyman's car does not wash. it has it's magic where certain multiple cultural leanings cross. in most other areas it's meh. most people wanting a Tesla already have one.

the market my Honda dealership serves is #2 for Tesla in the nation; and it's sales have dropped an average of 4% every month this year. no doubt the next 18 months will be critical for Tesla, whether they can handle all the competition entering their market segment. and they have no dealers to market to their customers, only on line.

push could come to shove.

 

[Al M.]

Sounds a lot like big oil propaganda. The analysis assumes that all power comes from coal plants. Wrong assumption.

Look, Steve, I fully agree with you that there is lots of big oil propaganda, and that big oil is prominently behind the climate change misinformation disaster and the climate change disaster proper. We are on the same side.

But ascribing everything contrarian to big oil propaganda is unwise, and undermines the credibility of the climate movement. Pick your battles wisely, and do not automatically dismiss all information that does not fit your world view, just because your opponents foolishly do the same. We should operate on a higher level, the only way to beat the skeptics.

There is information in these links that is worthwhile taking seriously.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Just test drive a Tesla and you will get it. Never have to look at a gas station again, never have to stop for gas or get in a line. Don't care about gas prices. Price of a new Model 3 is $39K. Average price of a car sold in the US - $37.5K.

What is the fossil fuels emission difference between ICEs and EVs charged by coal-fired power plants?

 

[NorthStar]

Click me ^

 

[Ron Resnick]

Click me ^

Dear Bob,

I would rather walk!

 

[Ron Resnick]

It' no surprise when the US heathcare costs twice what it does in other developed countries and it does not follow you from one job to another. It's no surprise with the demise of the strong union and bargaining. It's no surprise when the housing alternatives are all unaffordable by the masses.



They have a more uniform education system, not funded by locality. They have a uniform health care system, not for profit or funded by locality. They have a retraining system for jobs that are lost. These take away all of the stressors associated with uncertainty of survival and prosperity.



It is and it's because we used to have an uncorrupt government and lots of opportunity for employment and a better life. We still have lots of opportunity for employment in farming and hospitality industries. The cost of living is way too high for most immigrants however.



Sounds good in theory. We will se how this plays out.



I am much more optimistic this week.

Dear Empirical Audio,

Thank you for replying to Peter A’s post and to my post.

Please now let’s drop the general politics stuff, and let’s focus narrowly on climate change and EVs and the like.

Thank you.

 

[NorthStar]

My dream car is Bugatti Chiron; I'm just waiting for an electric one and with the price down.

* The pic above is just the intro for the less expensive electric cars in 2019.
It was a counteract to Mike's post ... a proportional balanced reply.

** Threads title: Can You Believe This - The Government Wants Us To Go EV but In So Doing They Will impose a gas surcharge

 

[Ron Resnick]

Elon Musk bragged today that Tesla is approaching 100,000 deliveries.

Does anyone know if these “deliveries” are actual deliveries of cars to consumers who bought these cars, or are they deliveries to auto lots where unsold Tesla cars are piling up?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Elon Musk bragged today that Tesla is approaching 100,000 deliveries.

Does anyone know if these “deliveries” are actual deliveries of cars to consumers who bought these cars, or are they deliveries to auto lots where unsold Tesla cars are piling up?

or, are they overseas?

USA sales could be shrinking while excess inventory heads where there have not been Tesla's. i've not seen definitive information on this issue. here is something from a few months ago. i think what is relevant is coming competition. and how much that competition will affect Tesla who is 100% reliant on on-line sales.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...ut-competition-gathers-momentum/#6037d4214b31

i'll be gone from the auto business in a couple of years, so likely will be on the sidelines when this plays out. but as a GM of a car dealership my 2 cents is that what will do in Tesla is their marketing approach without dealers. yes; they offer a value eliminating the expense of traditional distribution, but that only works when you are the only game in town. that is about to change and big time.

when there are choices, people will make them. and the cultural magic that drives Tesla will diminish to a large extent.

and further, i think when the EV market opens up to other choices, fewer EV's will be sold for a period. one thing that drives people to buy Tesla's is that it's special and unique. when there are multiple choices those so driven customers will be less likely to go that way. it's won't be so special anymore. then slowly EV's will pick up again a few years down the road. diehard greenies will keep the faith, but otherwise fickle buyers will waver.

the math to drive a Tesla is not very good. especially now that the Fed tax credit is almost completely done. that will take over.

just how it looks to me.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Mike, for your thoughts.

 

[Steve williams]

$ 39K? Give me a break. I got my then one year old Versa SV for $ 12.3K. And what about the environmental impact of the car batteries, making them and once they are shot? And how can I be sure the electricity that fuels them comes from clean power plants?

See also, for example:

How eco-friendly are electric cars?

Will Your Electric Car Save the World or Wreck It?

Rome wasn't built in a day. The advancement of technology is progressing at a rapid speed, so at some point one has to take the first step and buy in......

 

[Steve williams]

or, are they overseas?

USA sales could be shrinking while excess inventory heads where there have not been Tesla's. i've not seen definitive information on this issue. here is something from a few months ago. i think what is relevant is coming competition. and how much that competition will affect Tesla who is 100% reliant on on-line sales.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...ut-competition-gathers-momentum/#6037d4214b31

i'll be gone from the auto business in a couple of years, so likely will be on the sidelines when this plays out. but as a GM of a car dealership my 2 cents is that what will do in Tesla is their marketing approach without dealers. yes; they offer a value eliminating the expense of traditional distribution, but that only works when you are the only game in town. that is about to change and big time.

when there are choices, people will make them. and the cultural magic that drives Tesla will diminish to a large extent.

and further, i think when the EV market opens up to other choices, fewer EV's will be sold for a period. one thing that drives people to buy Tesla's is that it's special and unique. when there are multiple choices those so driven customers will be less likely to go that way. it's won't be so special anymore. then slowly EV's will pick up again a few years down the road. diehard greenies will keep the faith, but otherwise fickle buyers will waver.

the math to drive a Tesla is not very good. especially now that the Fed tax credit is almost completely done. that will take over.

just how it looks to me.

I totally agree Mike

When people speak EV, most everyone thinks Tesla, as they have been the only show in town but stuff like this only serves we the people better as the prices will fall. No question about it.

As for your other argument as to what drives people to Tesla and when there are choices sales will fall. I really doubt that is going to happen. The big auto manufacturers will be in it to win it

 

[Ron Resnick]

EVs charged by coal-fired power plants has never made any sense to me. However, I think EVs charged by your home solar panels is a very cool set-up!

 

[Empirical Audio]

What is the fossil fuels emission difference between ICEs and EVs charged by coal-fired power plants?

100MPG equivalent versus 30MPG for starters. Add to that the need to change oil in the ICE car and not the electric. Even charged with fossil fuels, it's a significant improvement.

 

[BlueFox]

I don’t have the reference, but I have read that the pollution generated to charge an electric vehicle is less than the pollution generated by an internal combustion engine. Anyway, coal generated electricity is going the way of the Dodo bird.

 

[NorthStar]

I don’t have the reference, but I have read that the pollution generated to charge an electric vehicle is less than the pollution generated by an internal combustion engine. Anyway, coal generated electricity is going the way of the Dodo bird.

You are 100% correct; a link was recently introduced in this thread on the matter.
We are looking globally; it's a universal vision, not just a local one.

 

[PeterA]

Just because most Tesla buyers add lots of options means nothing. The base car is amazing at $39K.

I think that is very expensive. Are there more new or used cars sold every year in the US? If used, one should look at that average price. When the average annual household income in the US is $60K, $39K plus taxes, fees, etc, is not affordable. And even if it were, what are the environmental consequences of trashing all the cars that these new EVs will replace? FWIW, I buy used cars and drive them for years and for over 200K miles. It's cheaper and less consuming. I suppose someone must buy new cars, but what happens to all of the existing cars already out there? Is Tesla making money yet? When will the subsidies end?

 

[Joe Whip]

I own two Tesla’s so I guess I am a bit biased in this area. But then again, so is Mike as GM of two auto dealerships. I hear people whine about the EV tax credit, yet don’t say a word about the billions in government subsidies given out to oil companies by the federal government and by other countries as well. Dwarfs the EV tax credit, which by the way, does not reduce the price of the car, just comes off your tax obligation. If the tax obligation is not big enough, you don't get the full amount. Sure, there are emissions produced in the generation of electricity. There was before EVs. More and more power is being generated with renewables each year. The emissions will continue to go down. The EVs themselves, no emissions at all. If power my car off solar, there are no emissions at all in driving the car. Then consider the amount of emissions generated in producing gasoline. The entire chain, from drilling, transporting oil, the refining process and the distribution of the fuel. People on the other side of the EV issue never take this into account. Nor the fine particulate matter that ICE cars produce that get into your blood and lungs and effect your health. Gee, I could have an EV on in my living room with no worries. Do that with an ICE and see what happens to you. I welcome the competition in the EV space from traditional auto makers but must say that I have been unimpressed with what I have seen so far. I am sure they will get better and cheaper, just as Teslas will. While EV adoption is not as fast I would like, it will grow. ICE cars will be phased out. So too will the dealership model. It makes no sense in the EV space as the cars require very little maintenance, no oil changes, tune ups, new timing belts etc.The dealers make little on the sale of the car. The money is made in the upkeep. I am so glad I don’t have to deal with $1,000 bills everytime I take a car in. How will dealers be able to survive without the service side? In the EV space, the Tesla model makes more sense. I don’t think I can really add any more to this thread. I love driving my car. It sparks joy.

 

[Empirical Audio]

I think that is very expensive. Are there more new or used cars sold every year in the US? If used, one should look at that average price. When the average annual household income in the US is $60K, $39K plus taxes, fees, etc, is not affordable. And even if it were, what are the environmental consequences of trashing all the cars that these new EVs will replace? FWIW, I buy used cars and drive them for years and for over 200K miles. It's cheaper and less consuming. I suppose someone must buy new cars, but what happens to all of the existing cars already out there? Is Tesla making money yet? When will the subsidies end?

I bought used cars for 40 years, and then finally bought some new ones. I buy a car about every 20 years. You can buy a used Tesla or a demo as well and save a lot of money. Some people are using their used Teslas as money-makers, renting them out.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Joe, I am glad you have a car you love! I know that feeling!

How competitive against the Model S do you think will be the Porsche Taycan?

(I know the Taycan’s competitive disadvantages presently are price (higher than Model S) and range (loser than Model S.)