Can You Believe This-The Government Wants Us To Go EV but In So Doing They Will impose a gas surcharge

You have to pedal these bikes, the motor just assists you. Eco mode adds something like 20% to your own efforts, so does only a little more than compensate for the added weight. Then trail is 40% and boost is more, I forget exactly... but it does allow you to simply pedal the bike up hills you'd normally have to walk and you get up climbs much faster. On flats you can accelerate much faster too, the motor assist cuts out over 20 mph or so.
They are really cool bikes, for sure, and one big plus is they can compensate for being disabled... or simply out-of-shape! ;)

Dave, do the spinning wheels or braking help to recharge the batteries? I would think this would be useful when going downhill.
 
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Dave, do the spinning wheels or braking help to recharge the batteries? I would think this would be useful when going downhill.
No, unfortunately not.
At least not with Bosch Motors.
I fear it would be possible but has to remain in the drawer for future releases :rolleyes:
That would be perfect for my use profile because I literally only drive up and down, practically no driving flat...
 
Lol. that’s because Tesla’s are more expensive to insure in the first place - dirty secret for a long time

Tesla getting in the insurance business is hilarious


Really? We have two Tesla’s. Both cost less to insure than our E350 which was an older car and the Volvo wagon which we gave to our son. That is not with Tesla insurance. Yeah, everything Elon does is a joke, like jump starting the EV revolution, energy storage, Space X, etc. give me a break.
 
I have given up with Dave C. He has his mind made up. He never seems to consider all the tailpipe emissions, not just CO2.

You seriously think buying an EV and charging it with fossil fuel generated electricity is better? Lol... you get the same or more CO2 plus the environmental impact of battery and motor production, plus the higher expense of the EV car vs ICE. It's a lose-lose for everyone involved from any angle you look at it.

I think some folks are heavily biased towards EVS and combined with their desire to "save the world" you get totally unreasonable opinions on what are actually facts. The thought that you're better off with EVs + fossil fuel charging is simply ridiculous. The fact you and Steve have purchased EVs has completely clouded your judgement.

I've said EVs are the future and I believe a smaller EVs charged with renewable power is indeed better vs an ICE vehicle. It's when we get into cars like Teslas that use enough resources to build and power several smaller cars, or we get into charging EVs using fossil-fuel generated electricity that it doesn't work anymore. But all that could change with better battery tech and/or a shift to generating electricity in other ways. IMO, this view is far more reasonable and factually accurate than what you and Steve seem to believe.

You, Steve and Alain should totally hang out!

 
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Koch bros fighting electric cars:

https://www.ecowatch.com/koch-network-electric-car-2640793025.html

The Koch network is actively pushing the argument that electric vehicles, which don't pay a gas tax, are to blame for highway funding shortfalls, despite vast evidence to the contrary.

30 self-described "conservative free-market organizations" — the majority of which have clear ties to Charles Koch and Koch Industries through their funding or leadership — called for Congress to halt the expansion of the EV tax credit, or to eliminate it entirely.

Oil and gas government subsidies are $4.7B each year. If those monies were diverted to clean-energy vehicles, it could buy 50,000 Tesla's each year or subsidize 500,000. We would no longer need to cozy up to Saudi Arabia. Foreign oil would no longer be a dependence. We could pull a lot of troops out of the middle east and reduce CO2 emissions even more, while taking our troops out of harms way. Most of our troops are over there to insure our economic security and that of the world, which means simply protect the oil. Screw that. I want to see a $4/gallon gas tax.
 
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With all due respect Dave, I can charge my car with solar. Furthermore, how is it not better to have a Tesla than have an ICE car spewing CO2 and other nasties even if it charged with traditional non renewable power? How would having an ICE car be better? Total nonsense. Look, you clearly don’t like Elon a little bit and it clouds your judgment. Yeah, he is quirky but so are a lot of innovative people. My son is a chemist, quirky but brilliant. We are better off we people like that. I am not trying to save the world, just trying to make my tiny portion of it better for me. The face that our two cars kill our former Benz is just gravy.
 
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With all due respect Dave, I can charge my car with solar. Furthermore, how is it not better to have a Tesla than have an ICE car spewing CO2 and other nasties even if it charged with traditional non renewable power? How would having an ICE car be better? Total nonsense. Look, you clearly don’t like Elon a little bit and it clouds your judgment. Yeah, he is quirky but so are a lot of innovative people. My son is a chemist, quirky but brilliant. We are better off we people like that. I am not trying to save the world, just trying to make my tiny portion of it better for me. The face that our two cars kill our former Benz is just gravy.


Where do you get this thing about me not liking Elon?!

I admire Elon, except for marrying Amber twice! He's a billionaire, he can get a few dates, I just don't get that. ;)

I watched Elon's Joe Rogan podcast and when asked "Why Tesla?" he answered, to the best of my recollection, "enjoyment". Not a big rant on how he's saving the Earth. IMO, he's well aware that Tesla vehicles have no real "green" cred, they are showpieces and his intent is simply to make EVs cool and desirable.

IMO Elon is very smart and a visionary. Not a perfect person, but I do admire him.
 
Thank you. I was actually asking about whether this exists on electric mountain bikes. Are you saying that he does?

It does not... generally when you're headed down on a mt bike you want to go as fast as possible! ;)
 
You seriously think buying an EV and charging it with fossil fuel generated electricity is better? Lol... you get the same or more CO2 plus the environmental impact of battery and motor production, plus the higher expense of the EV car vs ICE. It's a lose-lose for everyone involved from any angle you look at it.

I think some folks are heavily biased towards EVS and combined with their desire to "save the world" you get totally unreasonable opinions on what are actually facts. The thought that you're better off with EVs + fossil fuel charging is simply ridiculous. The fact you and Steve have purchased EVs has completely clouded your judgement.

I've said EVs are the future and I believe a smaller EVs charged with renewable power is indeed better vs an ICE vehicle. It's when we get into cars like Teslas that use enough resources to build and power several smaller cars, or we get into charging EVs using fossil-fuel generated electricity that it doesn't work anymore. But all that could change with better battery tech and/or a shift to generating electricity in other ways. IMO, this view is far more reasonable and factually accurate than what you and Steve seem to believe.

You, Steve and Alain should totally hang out!


Dave, you have a lovely Camaro...did you ever consider an electric one?

I don't understand why you are one-way street instead of looking @ the full real picture.
Of course there are cons with electric cars, and oil/gas cars.
Just this morning I've read a dozen articles in the situation today of EV vs ICE.
I looked @ all the aspects and the people running behind.

I don't care about what people want to drive, I care about my own oxygen in the air.
I care about life, I want to protect life...not death and cancer and oil monopoly and destruction of people and the planet, not all the oil wars killing life.
I don't care about others, I only care about me me me and my liberty to freely have a choice.
And my choice is life for everyone, that's beneficial for me.

It's no big deal, it's just a car. It's just a planet in the universe, it's just me.

Yes it's a way of speech to say that I believe in science of climate, and I believe oil/gas is going down one way or another and for the best. I could post several smart articles I've read recently and same for you.

If you can come up with why gas cars are better than electric cars I'm wide open.

It doesn't matter to me if you have a gasoline Camaro car or electric Jaguar, you are not saying ridiculous stuff, absolutely not. So then, why? You are a top engineer of your domain, Steve is also, Alain, Mike, ...all have smart stuff to share, intelligent choices they made, all are free...like you and me ...

Twenty years from now (2040) I won't be here, but the ones who will live tomorrow are the ones to benefit the most on a healthier planet from all aspects. Us we are nothing, we are just the workers paving the way to tomorrow's better future.

It's not black and white it's blue sky.
 
I found this interesting article, which seems a pretty thorough study:

Coal motors, wind engines and diesel engines: what does the CO2 balance show?

It is in German, but with the assistance of Google Translate (astonishingly good) as preparation, and my own corrections as a native German speaker of the result on top of it, I translated a few key paragraphs. Apologies if some things are still not clear, I only spent a limited amount of time on this.

About the Authors:

Christoph Buchal is a professor of physics at the University of Cologne and a researcher at Forschungszentrum Jülich. Hans-Dieter Karl was employed as a specialist in energy research at the Ifo Institute, and Hans-Werner Sinn is professor emeritus at the Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München and former President of the Ifo Institute. None of the authors has a commercial relationship with the energy industry or auto companies. The authors thank Karen Pittel of the Ifo Institute for useful information and Daniel Weishaar for a thorough research assistance.

***

Summary:
Based on official measurement data, this article compares two midrange cars, the Mercedes C 220 d and the new Tesla Model 3, in terms of their consumption of diesel or electricity. This will be based on alternative marginal energy sources for electricity as well as Germany's actual electricity mix from 2018. Furthermore, a meta-study on CO2 emissions in battery production is taken into account. It turns out that the CO2 emission of the electric motor is about one-tenth and, in the unfavorable case, about a good quarter higher than the output of the diesel engine. The least emitting is the combustion engine powered by methane, which is almost a third lower than the diesel engine, even if one takes into account the considerable pre-pollution by methane production. There are two advantages to using hydrogen-methane technology. On the one hand, in the long term, it is the only way to store the surplus peak wind and solar power required to expand the market share of this form of renewable electricity. On the other hand, even as is, it offers the possibility of considerable CO2 savings, even if this methane comes from fossil sources.

[...]

1.
An analysis of the current situation of the energy turnaround shows that, despite high annual investments, above all in the area of »renewable electricity production«, the total German CO2 emissions do not fall as much as anticipated. In the transport sector in particular, virtually unchanged emission totals have been observed for many years, although the Federal Government has set a reduction target of at least 40% for this sector by 2030 (see Federal Ministry for the Environment, Nature Conservation and Nuclear Safety 2016). P. 8).

That is why the transport sector is currently being criticized for its unabated fuel needs. Although an effective move away from gasoline and diesel is obviously very difficult, politics and the media public still have high hopes for a more rapid introduction of electric cars. Above all, politics justifies this step with effective climate protection which should be achieved by reducing the petroleum demand for gasoline and diesel. This would also mean that the CO emissions proportions fall proportionally.

Now, you can definitely welcome the turnaround to the electric car from an engineering point of view, because it is elegant, sturdy, powerful, drives quietly and does not need a complicated gearbox. The electric car offers great potential, especially for urban traffic, because emissions are being shifted from the cities to the power plants. China is making very consistent efforts to make its giant metropolises more habitable with electric cars. Above all, the urban fine particulate matter and nitrogen oxide emissions from traffic are partly responsible for the often unbearable smog. Electric railways and vehicles offer a significant improvement in this respect. As a result, China is currently developing into the globally important market for electric cars and buses. Here, the German industry should not lose touch.

However, it cannot be claimed that electric cars can be moved without CO2 emissions, as the European legislator claims if it allows the CO2 emissions of these cars to be included in its calculations with a value of "zero". Such a value does not even apply to Norway, where electricity is generated almost zero-emission with hydropower, because the CO2 emissions are ignored in the production of vehicle and battery. Moreover, in all other European countries high CO2 emissions result from the charging of the batteries with the help of electricity from the respective national production mix of green energy and nuclear energy on the one hand and fossil fuels on the other.

In the following, therefore, we will first provide an overview of the situation of German electricity production in order to be able to compare electric cars with burners, in particular diesel, with regard to CO2 emissions in the following chapter. Of course, it does not matter where the CO2 emissions are generated, whether distributed by the vehicles or concentrated in the power plant, for the CO2 balance and the climate problem.

For comparison, we consider the CO2 emissions of a modern diesel vehicle with that of a modern electric car based on two concrete examples for which the measured values are available to us. On the one hand there is the Mercedes C 220 d and on the other the new Model 3 from Tesla. Both vehicles have a similar size and are in the same vehicle class. We use the official NEDC values for energy consumption and CO2 emissions. As far as possible, we also make further comments on the upstream and downstream CO2 balance sheets.

We explain the current state of the facts in such detail because in the postulated complete emission freedom of e-cars we suspect a purposeful industrial policy deception and consequently fear an inevitable disappointment of the public if the hoped-for technical CO2 reductions do not materialize. This will be explained in more detail in the concluding remarks.

[...]

7. Concluding Remarks

It follows from our comparative calculations for the new Tesla Model 3 and the Mercedes C 220 d that even modern electric cars will hardly be able to contribute to the reduction of German CO2 emissions in the coming years. Unfortunately, due to our grid situation, electric cars are still premature for this strategic goal in the sense of German climate protection efforts. It cannot be claimed that the introduction of electric cars in itself will lead to a reduction in CO2 emissions in transport, as suggested by the EU Directive on the calculation of fleet consumption, which includes electric vehicles CO2 emissions from zero. The opposite is the case. The CO2 emissions of the battery-electric cars only in the best case lie on a comparable level with the diesel engine value, considering today's energy mix in Germany and taking into account the energy costs of battery production.

Modifications of this statement are only possible if it is possible to operate the electric cars to a greater extent with low-emission energy than corresponds to today's average. If one assumes a rigid handling of the emissions trading, then it may be so. Then, however, the electric cars will cause other electricity consumers to be ousted from the market by drastic price rises in emissions allowances and electricity. The withdrawal of energy intensive manufacturing industries will be unavoidable. Resistances of consumers and / or taxpayers are inevitable. Since Germany already has the highest electricity costs in Europe today, we do not consider the case of rigid handling of emissions trading to be particularly plausible, especially also since nuclear power plants are planned to be shut down. It is likely that emissions trading will be handled more flexibly and that conventional electricity generated from fossil sources will be used more extensively than originally planned in a transitional period. Then the electric cars could temporarily become hidden coal or natural gas cars. The CO2 emissions from the power stations 'chimneys, which are also caused by electric cars, do not appear in the EU formula for manufacturers' fleet consumption, because the CO2 emissions of electric cars are set at zero, as if especially this stream always come from green sources. This formula is misleading the population, even though its creators presumably had no illusions about CO2 emissions from electricity production.
 
I found this interesting article, which seems a pretty thorough study:

Coal motors, wind engines and diesel engines: what does the CO2 balance show?

It is in German, but with the assistance of Google Translate (astonishingly good) as preparation, and my own corrections as a native German speaker of the result on top of it, I translated a few key paragraphs. Apologies if some things are still not clear, I only spent a limited amount of time on this.

About the Authors:

Christoph Buchal is a professor of physics at the University of Cologne and a researcher at Forschungszentrum Jülich. Hans-Dieter Karl was employed as a specialist in energy research at the Ifo Institute, and Hans-Werner Sinn is professor emeritus at the Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München and former President of the Ifo Institute. None of the authors has a commercial relationship with the energy industry or auto companies. The authors thank Karen Pittel of the Ifo Institute for useful information and Daniel Weishaar for a thorough research assistance.

***

Summary:
Based on official measurement data, this article compares two midrange cars, the Mercedes C 220 d and the new Tesla Model 3, in terms of their consumption of diesel or electricity. This will be based on alternative marginal energy sources for electricity as well as Germany's actual electricity mix from 2018. Furthermore, a meta-study on CO2 emissions in battery production is taken into account. It turns out that the CO2 emission of the electric motor is about one-tenth and, in the unfavorable case, about a good quarter higher than the output of the diesel engine. The least emitting is the combustion engine powered by methane, which is almost a third lower than the diesel engine, even if one takes into account the considerable pre-pollution by methane production. There are two advantages to using hydrogen-methane technology. On the one hand, in the long term, it is the only way to store the surplus peak wind and solar power required to expand the market share of this form of renewable electricity. On the other hand, even as is, it offers the possibility of considerable CO2 savings, even if this methane comes from fossil sources.

[...]

1.
An analysis of the current situation of the energy turnaround shows that, despite high annual investments, above all in the area of »renewable electricity production«, the total German CO2 emissions do not fall as much as anticipated. In the transport sector in particular, virtually unchanged emission totals have been observed for many years, although the Federal Government has set a reduction target of at least 40% for this sector by 2030 (see Federal Ministry for the Environment, Nature Conservation and Nuclear Safety 2016). P. 8).

That is why the transport sector is currently being criticized for its unabated fuel needs. Although an effective move away from gasoline and diesel is obviously very difficult, politics and the media public still have high hopes for a more rapid introduction of electric cars. Above all, politics justifies this step with effective climate protection which should be achieved by reducing the petroleum demand for gasoline and diesel. This would also mean that the CO emissions proportions fall proportionally.

Now, you can definitely welcome the turnaround to the electric car from an engineering point of view, because it is elegant, sturdy, powerful, drives quietly and does not need a complicated gearbox. The electric car offers great potential, especially for urban traffic, because emissions are being shifted from the cities to the power plants. China is making very consistent efforts to make its giant metropolises more habitable with electric cars. Above all, the urban fine particulate matter and nitrogen oxide emissions from traffic are partly responsible for the often unbearable smog. Electric railways and vehicles offer a significant improvement in this respect. As a result, China is currently developing into the globally important market for electric cars and buses. Here, the German industry should not lose touch.

However, it cannot be claimed that electric cars can be moved without CO2 emissions, as the European legislator claims if it allows the CO2 emissions of these cars to be included in its calculations with a value of "zero". Such a value does not even apply to Norway, where electricity is generated almost zero-emission with hydropower, because the CO2 emissions are ignored in the production of vehicle and battery. Moreover, in all other European countries high CO2 emissions result from the charging of the batteries with the help of electricity from the respective national production mix of green energy and nuclear energy on the one hand and fossil fuels on the other.

In the following, therefore, we will first provide an overview of the situation of German electricity production in order to be able to compare electric cars with burners, in particular diesel, with regard to CO2 emissions in the following chapter. Of course, it does not matter where the CO2 emissions are generated, whether distributed by the vehicles or concentrated in the power plant, for the CO2 balance and the climate problem.

For comparison, we consider the CO2 emissions of a modern diesel vehicle with that of a modern electric car based on two concrete examples for which the measured values are available to us. On the one hand there is the Mercedes C 220 d and on the other the new Model 3 from Tesla. Both vehicles have a similar size and are in the same vehicle class. We use the official NEDC values for energy consumption and CO2 emissions. As far as possible, we also make further comments on the upstream and downstream CO2 balance sheets.

We explain the current state of the facts in such detail because in the postulated complete emission freedom of e-cars we suspect a purposeful industrial policy deception and consequently fear an inevitable disappointment of the public if the hoped-for technical CO2 reductions do not materialize. This will be explained in more detail in the concluding remarks.

[...]

7. Concluding Remarks

It follows from our comparative calculations for the new Tesla Model 3 and the Mercedes C 220 d that even modern electric cars will hardly be able to contribute to the reduction of German CO2 emissions in the coming years. Unfortunately, due to our grid situation, electric cars are still premature for this strategic goal in the sense of German climate protection efforts. It cannot be claimed that the introduction of electric cars in itself will lead to a reduction in CO2 emissions in transport, as suggested by the EU Directive on the calculation of fleet consumption, which includes electric vehicles CO2 emissions from zero. The opposite is the case. The CO2 emissions of the battery-electric cars only in the best case lie on a comparable level with the diesel engine value, considering today's energy mix in Germany and taking into account the energy costs of battery production.

Modifications of this statement are only possible if it is possible to operate the electric cars to a greater extent with low-emission energy than corresponds to today's average. If one assumes a rigid handling of the emissions trading, then it may be so. Then, however, the electric cars will cause other electricity consumers to be ousted from the market by drastic price rises in emissions allowances and electricity. The withdrawal of energy intensive manufacturing industries will be unavoidable. Resistances of consumers and / or taxpayers are inevitable. Since Germany already has the highest electricity costs in Europe today, we do not consider the case of rigid handling of emissions trading to be particularly plausible, especially also since nuclear power plants are planned to be shut down. It is likely that emissions trading will be handled more flexibly and that conventional electricity generated from fossil sources will be used more extensively than originally planned in a transitional period. Then the electric cars could temporarily become hidden coal or natural gas cars. The CO2 emissions from the power stations 'chimneys, which are also caused by electric cars, do not appear in the EU formula for manufacturers' fleet consumption, because the CO2 emissions of electric cars are set at zero, as if especially this stream always come from green sources. This formula is misleading the population, even though its creators presumably had no illusions about CO2 emissions from electricity production.


tl;dr... There's no free lunch.

The solution lies in changing lifestyle and food production methods combined with climate engineering and (voluntary) population reduction.

ICE vs EV is right now splitting hairs and the truth is above, it's only in the best case scenarios that EVs can possibly be better wrt CO2 emissions. When you factor in the environmental impact of mining and manufacturing EVs, the truth is exactly what I said before, the Tesla roadster is the worst possible vehicle you can buy for the planet. Besides a Learjet. ;) Those who choose to own Teslas should enjoy the cars for what they are, technical marvels of engineering that are intended for your enjoyment. They are significantly worse than buying a small ICE car for the environment and the climate.

I'm sympathetic to air quality in cities and it's an issue and a factor in favor or EV, but it's secondary to preventing the climate from turning the Earth into an inhospitable place for us.

Where are those aliens with the Mr Fusion devices?!
 
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Where are those aliens with the Mr Fusion devices?!
i like “set it and forget it”

so Dave in your perfect world how are you defining voluntary selective reduction


there have been interesting books on this very issue

one that caught my intrigue was written by Dan Brown

something like the Great Plague from the 13th century did that very thing .
 
i like “set it and forget it”

so Dave in your perfect world how are you defining voluntary selective reduction


there have been interesting books on this very issue

one that caught my intrigue was written by Dan Brown

something like the Great Plague from the 13th century did that very thing .

I think lots of pathogens will pop up or become a greater threat, seems like it's already happening with recent increases in disease carried by ticks and mosquitoes, incidents of flesh eating bacteria, etc. and pandemics are always possible. There are so many pathogens that are all around us just waiting for weakness, I think increased temps will give them an advantage. I think this is a major mechanism of extinction events, a change in balance caused by a change in temps could lead to a vulnerable species being wiped out.

Population growth seems related to the standard of living and education, when std of living is high and the population is educated population growth seems to level off or even decline. Religion encourages population growth, but I'm not sure it matters as much once education is available. In some cultures children are expected to support their parents as soon as they become successful, and provide for their retirement... not an ideal arrangement imo.

If I remember right, Elon was worried about a population crash and the issues it will cause, but in the near term I think we should try to limit the peak to whatever degree we can, and reduce from there by eliminating poverty and providing education and opportunities for all countries to be a productive member of modern society.
 
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