Changing variables in a review
- Thread starter PeterA
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Wow, they do come with some price tag:
Quite a difference with your previous Ching Cheng.
The thread is about how many variables are or should be in play for a review. "does changing more than one variable at a time change your opinion about the value of the review of the component being compared?" I will not write about what is correct, but simply describe what I do.
For amp A, which is my reference, I know where its speakers are positioned. If I bring in amp B for review, I try to find the best position for my speakers with that amp, starting with where my speakers are for amp A. If nothing sounds anomalous I'll stick with that, otherwise I will try for a better position. (Preferably I'd let the manufacturer set-up his product, but sometimes that cannot happen.) Beyond initial setup I would not experiment. At least I've not done that in previous reviews. I try to keep the number of variables to a minimum, but I'm not religious about it.
Yes, audio people do like arguing. If you expect to find correct answers in audio threads you may be disappointed half the the time. Someone will probably argue about that.
Knghifi said in #193 about his Ching Cheng:
"Got some from ddk and found a bunch off Ebay with similar sound. Gave many to friends to try before spending big money on audiophile cables."
The thread is about how many variables are or should be in play for a review. "does changing more than one variable at a time change your opinion about the value of the review of the component being compared?" I will not write about what is correct, but simply describe what I do.
For amp A, which is my reference, I know where its speakers are positioned. If I bring in amp B for review, I try to find the best position for my speakers with that amp, starting with where my speakers are for amp A. If nothing sounds anomalous I'll stick with that, otherwise I will try for a better position. (Preferably I'd let the manufacturer set-up his product, but sometimes that cannot happen.) Beyond initial setup I would not experiment. At least I've not done that in previous reviews. I try to keep the number of variables to a minimum, but I'm not religious about it.
Yes, audio people do like arguing. If you expect to find correct answers in audio threads you may be disappointed half the the time. Someone will probably argue about that.
Hello tima
I have a question on this. Why would you change speaker positions?? I can take quite a while to finally dial in a pair between toe-in, listening distance and distance from room boundaries.
As soon as you change speaker positions you automatically change the in-room response. This is basic acoustics and well understood.
What you actually end up comparing is your speakers in different listening positions. No amp unless it's seriously flawed will have anywhere near the frequency deviations that moving speakers around a room does.
It completely gums up the works and if you have to change your speaker positions because of an amp change something isn't right.
Rob
What do you do when a new amp doesnt sound good in your system?
1 Call the dealer
2 Change cables untill it sounds good
3 Change the music untill it sounds acceptable
4 reposition the speakers in the room untill they sound acceptable .
5 Open the door of the room and put the amp outside .
Hifi is simple just switch one component at the time , i would appreciate the same stance/ attitude of reviewers.
Why make things more complicated as they are already
1 Call the dealer
2 Change cables untill it sounds good
3 Change the music untill it sounds acceptable
4 reposition the speakers in the room untill they sound acceptable .
5 Open the door of the room and put the amp outside .
Hifi is simple just switch one component at the time , i would appreciate the same stance/ attitude of reviewers.
Why make things more complicated as they are already
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What do you do when a new amp doesnt sound good in your system?
1 Call the dealer
2 Change cables untill it sounds good
3 Change the music untill it sound acceptable
4 reposition the speakers in the room untill they sound acceptable .
5 Open the door of the room and put the amps outside .
Hifi is simple just switch one component at the time , i would appreciate the same stance/ attitude of reviewers.
Why make things more complicated as they are already
It happened several times. People bring some equipment in my room and we simply connect it replacing my equipment. Most times after first listening and initial warmup we change cables or other equipment to be able to listen to it playing at its best. We want to spend an enjoyable moment listening to it, not denigrating it. However I do not remeber repositioning the speakers, although we have changed them several times.
For me its simple " expect no mercy " .
Good review / bad review , who cares ??
If i dont like it ......out bye bye .
Its the new component who should deliver the extra .
Not me having to do all kind of fiddling / adjustments to make it sound good /acceptable
If the quality aint there ,it aint there
Good review / bad review , who cares ??
If i dont like it ......out bye bye .
Its the new component who should deliver the extra .
Not me having to do all kind of fiddling / adjustments to make it sound good /acceptable
If the quality aint there ,it aint there
I don't think that moving the speakers is something he does or for that matter anyone as part of a component trial but it can happen, sometimes a setup needs adjustment and the new gear shines a light on it. Frankly I'm surprised that people are so rigid when trying out new equipment I don't write reviews but I test gear or set up full unknown systems for myself and for people I simply don't see the big deal taking on multiple components including acoustics at a time. In fact I don't see a way around it.Hello tima
I have a question on this. Why would you change speaker positions?? I can take quite a while to finally dial in a pair between toe-in, listening distance and distance from room boundaries.
As soon as you change speaker positions you automatically change the in-room response. This is basic acoustics and well understood.
What you actually end up comparing is your speakers in different listening positions. No amp unless it's seriously flawed will have anywhere near the frequency deviations that moving speakers around a room does.
It completely gums up the works and if you have to change your speaker positions because of an amp change something isn't right.
Rob
david
You don't work on the setup after first good impressions?For me its simple " expect no mercy " .
Good review / bad review , who cares ??
If i dont like it ......out bye bye .
Its the new component who should deliver the extra .
Not me having to do all kind of fiddling / adjustments to make it sound good /acceptable
If the quality aint there ,it aint there
david
David , arent you taking the worst cases into account
Like people who make a complete mess of system set up ?
I m just talking about what to do with a adequate set up / systems.
I assume a reviewer knows a thing or 2 about speaker positioning in his / her room
Like people who make a complete mess of system set up ?
I m just talking about what to do with a adequate set up / systems.
I assume a reviewer knows a thing or 2 about speaker positioning in his / her room
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No not really , i do reposition speakers once in a while , but thats more out of boredom / desire for a change in sound , perception .
A month later i d reposition them back for example .
Basically i have made my mind up about a component/ system in a minute( 5 min ) or so and this first impression rarely changes .
Amps or pre amps without good unit control , .... bye bye , i dont bother with repositioning .
Cables i never change
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Mediocre and poor setups are a given but I often find excellent setups can improve with minor changes after introducing a better component. Speaker placement isn't only depth and imaging you can the overall balance of your sound by moving the speakers even an inch in any direction. In a big room with great acoustics this might not be a big change but in a small space with poor acoustics it's a given.
I'm pretty much the same way testing new equipment including speakers. I drop it in anywhere to see if it's worth dealing with and go from there, first impressions matter! Of course it's different with other people's systems, I have to make it work as best as it can be and then give them a few suggestions and leave it at that.
david
David, I agree that sometimes a replaced component removes a bottle neck and the new component reveals a flaw somewhere, including set up. You've told me that you get rid of cat litter boxes and poor sounding audiophile power cords and footers so that you can actually hear what you are doing when setting up a cartridge in someone's system. I imagine the client is receptive to that coming from you. I also agree that it is not a big deal, if you know what you are doing. I also agree that a slight speaker adjustment might yield slightly better sound. Not a big deal for a typical owner, but a bigger deal in a review where people are looking for sonic effect from a new amp, not a new amp and speaker position adjustment. I think if a reviewer does that, it should be disclosed, and reasons given, so as to help the reader understand the reason for it.
I have friends who change power cords and then play with speaker positioning and room treatment because the power cords change the sound. But we are talking about an amp review in a reviewer's system that "should" not have set up issues. These review systems should be reference grade for that reviewer with good speaker positioning, good seat location, good power cords, proper cartridge set up, etc.
I was a one variable at a time guy when I started this thread, but the more arguments I read for adjustments, the more I accept the occasional benefit of that. If an amplifier struggles with a pair of speakers, as it did in Marty's system, and perhaps in Roy's system, I can see why Roy moved the speakers around to adjust for the bass quality. I did not read his review, but perhaps he explained what he did and why. That would be something worth reading in a review of such expensive CH amplifiers. Marty sharing his candid impressions is also a great data point for anyone interested in such amplifiers.
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I m sure with clients it can be indeed a completely different story.
In that case you are stuck with non familiar variables .
I thought the thread / example was about a reviewer doing a review of a product .
Im sure a reviewer has to make an extra effort to get the product to sound good .
As its probably a product of a company who paid for advertising space.
Its probably not gonna be a " as hard a conclusion " as that a buyer would make
I used to experiment with my conventional cone speaker positions every now and then, but I eventually stopped when I realized I had exhausted my patience. I have two friends who continue to make small speaker adjustments regularly. Perhaps it is a result of new gear coming in, or they are still trying to optimize the positioning. Audiophiles like to tinker. I get that.
I dont know of any cheaper tweaks.
That actually make a difference.
But a new component should sound better in either speaker position, imo.
From the get go , okay you can give it a week or a month off course
In your case iirc the real improvement was the LAMM ( pre ) hybrid power amp.
Which you realised when you sold the magico s already
No speaker repositioning or cable swapping are gonna give you such improvements i think you ll agree on that
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Actually, I realize this before I sold the Magico Speakers. I did all the comparisons on the Magico speakers and only sold them after I was sure I preferred the horns with SET amps.
The real improvement was the entire Lamm chain (with M1.1 hybrid Class A) versus the entire Pass chain. The SET Lamm ML2 offered something else that was hinted at with the Magicos but only fully realized with the Vitavox corner horns. No need to experiment with speaker position any longer.
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